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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | WHO is Hebrews 6:4-11 refering to? | Heb 6:4 | DocTrinsograce | 144249 | ||
Hi, brother Hank! I am confident that I am less knowledgeable, and a much less worthy servant of our Lord than are you, sir. I hope you will be patient, therefore, with my response to your post. The following is meant to be gentle and respectful. Your friend was expressing the fundamental tenets of another ism: Lutheranism. Very simplistically: Calvinism has roots in Lutheran theology which has roots in Augustinian theology, which has roots in Pauline theology, etc. The labels are not about the men themselves (although people like to argue from that standpoint), but are about the specific doctrines that are taught. (This is also true, by the way, for Arminianism, Pelagianism, etc.) Whereas Calvinism and Arminianism do, indeed, make inquiry into the moral and soteriological mechanics of the human will -- and Lutheranism does not -- there is no scriptural prohibition for such inquiry. In fact, church history shows that at least some of God's revelation is not understood except in a progressive fashion. (A perfect example of this is the careful Scriptural reasonings of Athanasius in the doctrine of the Trinity.) The scripture calls us to seek, study, learn, reason, ask, etc. When we read the statements of Aquinus, Luther, Calvin, Harmensen, Beza, Wesley, Parham, or Kung we ought to search the scriptures to see if these things be so. (Would that we knew the Scriptures as well as any of these men!) I know that we can say, "Because God said so." Dear brother, if I could, I would make every doctrine be examined in the light of Scripture by every believer. We should never, no! NEVER be satisfied that we know enough! (Please see Paul's prayer for us in Ephesians 1:17-23.) In Him, Doc (your fellow Southern Baptist) |
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2 | WHO is Hebrews 6:4-11 refering to? | Heb 6:4 | EdB | 144278 | ||
I think you miss Hank's point. If scripture revealed the answer to the Calvinist/Arminianist debate it would have ended 500 years ago. As Hank’s friend so succinctly stated both perspectives are equally represented in scripture so we have to accept both what we can’t figure out is how they interact. Both Calvinist and Arminianist attempt to make that explanation but since God in His infinite wisdom decide to keep the exact answer a mystery their attempts fall short. Nothing is accomplished by hashing and rehashing the arguments over and over and it is pointless. For anyone to consider that they have conclusive proof to establish once and for all a final answer is arrogance, again I remind everyone the debate has raged for 500years involving the greatest theological minds of each passing era. Since it has been decided both positions fall within the range of Christian Orthodoxy, to present either position as fact or truth flies in the face of everyone that holds the opposite view. The only answer that can honestly reported is both as in “some believe thus and such and others believe this and that.” Any attempt to sway the reader to one side or another is nothing more than preaching your position with unabashed bias something Lockman in their wisdom has banned. |
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3 | WHO is Hebrews 6:4-11 refering to? | Heb 6:4 | DocTrinsograce | 144295 | ||
Dear Brother Ed, You're right. I was zeroing in on a specific part of what Brother Hank was saying. Perhaps you also missed my point. I wasn't talking *about* Calvinism, Arminianism, or Lutheranism. I only mentioned them as examples of labels. Calvinism is more than simply what John Calvin argued. Arminianism is more than simply what Jacob Harmensen argued. Lutheranism is more than just what Martin Luther argued. Each of these theologies has matured, changed, refined, etc. over time. Let me see if I can find another way of saying this. Recently I spoke to a young Southern Baptist minister. I asked him what his thoughts were about Calvinism. He said, "Well, I'm not really into following men. I just follow Jesus." This revealed that he didn't have a clue what Calvinism was about. (Shame to the seminary in which he was educated!) The "isms" I mentioned above have nothing to do with following men! Oh, how the men whose names these theologies bear would have hated for anyone to think this way! Purely as an example of the kind of understanding that I'm talking about, please let me quote one of the more famous Baptists, Charles Hadon Spurgeon. (Note that I do not use this quote to persuade anyone to Calvinism or away from anything else.) He wrote, "There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer -- I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley." This is not a matter of arrogance, this is a matter of persuasion. Indeed, "the debate has raged for 500 years." May it rage until the Lord comes again! Let us have done with "second hand faith," and be more like the noble Bereans, regardless of where we fall on the questions. In Him, Doc PS This post is not an effort to sway anyone to anything except to the following Scripture: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:5-9) |
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4 | WHO is Hebrews 6:4-11 refering to? | Heb 6:4 | EdB | 144304 | ||
Doc You make it sound like so noble a pursuit yet it is not. To study Calvin or Arminian is to study external of the scripture since scripture does not address the mysteries both these schools of doctrine profess to have solved. You say let the debate rage until the Lord comes yet no one thing can be pointed at to have been so detrimenal to work of the Lord and to the church as this debate. Men have lost their homes, families and lives and some I fear their souls to this debate. Let rage? I pray it ceases today! You said shame to the seminary that failed to instruct this pastor in Calvinism. I say praise be to God, as I hope they took the time that would have been spent teaching such nonsense and used it to instructed him fully in what the scriptures do reveal. How sad would be the day if we produced pastors and teachers from our seminary well versed in the teaching of either man at the cost of time taken from theaching the truth ascribed in scripture. You say you follow no man but in fact you do. You follow a teaching of a man on a subject scripture along remains silent on. To say you follow any other than man is impossible on this subject. Joshua 24:15 (NASB) 15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." You quote Spurgeon yet you fail to comprehend what he was really saying. EdB |
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5 | WHO is Hebrews 6:4-11 refering to? | Heb 6:4 | EdB | 144307 | ||
Please excuse my spelling I didn't realize I had my spell check turned off in my word processor until after I posted this. :-0 EdB |
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