Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Slavery | Titus 2:9 | Just Read Mark | 156413 | ||
3 thoughts on slavery. Hi Mark. Well, first off, it conflicts with my comfort zone ; ) I will try to flesh out some of the thoughts in my head. I would be interested in YOUR understanding of how slavery is treated in the NT. Perpective 1. This passage tells slaves to obey their master beyond the letter of the law. This whole book emphasizes orderly behaviour for all people, and is applied to slave as well. Where some would see resisting injustice as the kind of Good Work we are called to perform, freedom for the slaves is not suggested here. So then, this is one side of it... accepting slavery as uncomfortable but not immoral. The higher importance is placed on living an orderly, rather than rebellious, life. Perspective 2) When Paul says that, in Christ, there is neither male nor female, slave nor free (Gal 3:28), he is not saying I cease to be a male... rather he is saying we are equal. Same for slaves. Thus the radical claim is that slave and master are EQUALS before God. Perspective 3) The whole book of Philemon. Here, Paul appeals for the freedom of a Slave. The letter underscores the absurdity of Master and Slave beeing equal in Christ, but so unequal in their relationship to each other. Paul, here, is appealing to a master who is devout. What hope, then, is there for slaves who have pagan (or perhaps capitalist) masters. So theres a start. This isnt so much a contradiction as a complexity worth understanding. JRM |
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2 | Slavery | Titus 2:9 | mark d seyler | 156417 | ||
Hi JustReadMark, The Slave/Master relationship is an earthly contrivance. The Law included provisions to limit the extent of a slave's service, but it also included provisions that the slave could permanently be bound to their master. (Deut. 5, 15, other places also.) Slavery was not always undesirable. Kidnapping was also addressed in the Law (I can't think of the ref. :-( ). Offenders were to be stoned. Slaves were often in that position for a specified amount of time, in order to pay off a debt. The NT also, as you mentioned (really, you did most of my work for me ;-) ), gives rules for slaves and masters, but nowhere is a blanket order given for the release of all slaves. (In the OT, this was to be done on the Sabbath year, but then you could again have slaves.) Here is a perspective #4: 1Co 7:21 Were you called as a slave? It does not matter to you. But if you are able to be free, rather use it. 22 For the one called while a slave in the Lord is a freed man of the Lord. And likewise, the one called while a free man is a slave of Christ. (litv) Here Paul is saying that if you can improve your situation to give you greater advangtage, use it in your service to the Lord. He is also saying that the way man sees things is not the way God sees them. Slavery in a capitalist society is more subtle, but let's face it, if I quit my job, it will be just a matter of time till, while not a slave owner, but bankers, and tax collectors, and a few others will be hunting me down. But in Christ, I am free, and these others are the true slaves. Paul's letter to Philemon, I think, should be thought of as a personal appeal to Philemon, for the personal betterment of Onesimus. Paul does not say "Free him, because it's wrong for you to have slaves." Rather he says, "wouldn't it be better if he were a beloved brother than a slave?", as if to say that the slave/master relationship reduced their ability to fellowship. So I am aware of one place that says its better to gain your freedom if you can, and one that says you can have a better relationship with your friend than your slave. These things make sense to me. But we are the Lord's slaves. If Jesus wants me to serve by being a slave to a harsh master, who am I so question that. Our God is able to put us where He wants us. He may wish to show this evil master His love, through the patient and kind obedience of a undervalued and mistreated slave, or employee. I will agree with the idea that a master and slave cannot be "equal" within this worldly scheme of things. But each will stand before God, and to the slave, Jesus will judge how they obeyed their master. To the master, Jesus will judge how they treated their slave. The whole importance of social change, status change, and my temporal situation is greatly downplayed in scripture. My heart, my mind, my relationship with God, and how I treat others - these things are what God tells us to concern ourselves with. He promises to take care of the rest, and He knows a lot better that we do. I hope something in all this rambling helps! Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | Slavery | Titus 2:9 | Just Read Mark | 156425 | ||
Thanks, Mark. What a great ramble! The teaching that we are slaves of Christ is powerful. (I also love it when Paul talks about being in chains for the Gospel, and freedom in Christ, in the same breath. You know that he is experiencing what he preaches. The slavery theme is very similar.) Thank you, also, for putting slavery in some kind of historical perspective. In the Roman world, some slaves were very priveledged (for example, the secretary of a land-owner would be literate and live a relatively comfortable life). Other slaves, however, would be treated very harshly indeed. Paul makes no distinction between various situations... if only we knew whether he meant it as a blanket statement, or if he knew the particulars of the slaves concerned. So here is another angle. Perhaps it is not the slaves place to protest his condition... going along with your statement that, if God has put him in that situation, who is he to object. (I feel a bit awkward writing that, as I am loath to attribute such conditions to God...) But another part of the question is, what should OTHERS do to help the slave. Paul writes Philemon, to encourage him to release his slave. If we are not to stand up for our own freedoms, perhaps we ARE to stand up on others behalf. For most people, controlling a docile worker, will not be moved to gratitude, but to further work load. The passive stand, if taken by everyone, leads to deterioration rather than justice. While you say the Bible downplays issues of social change, the Bible, from beginning to end, is filled with appeals for justice and mercy. This concern for justice - which was very political, when you look at the prophets - provides a powerful backdrop for the question of slavery. |
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4 | Slavery | Titus 2:9 | mark d seyler | 156449 | ||
Hi JRM, Your mention of the prophets leads me to think of who they were addressing - the wrongdoer. And you are right, there was (and is) a great disparity in how slaves were treated. The prophets cried to the unjust, imploring them to give justice, to the unmerciful, to give mercy. But the question is, do we try to liberate the slave of the unjust master? From Paul's statement of "if you can gain your freedom, then use it", I think that if there is something I can do, which is not sinful in and of itself, that will improve someone's condition, then I do well to do it. But I also think of Joseph, unjustly rotting in prison for 13 years. God used that time to prepare this young man to be the number 2 man in Egypt, and to rescue his people. I don't believe God put Joseph in prison, any more than that God put the galley slave chained to the oar. but it is written that Joseph told his brothers, and rightfully, I believe, that while they intended their deed for evil, God meant it for good. So who was ultimately in charge of where Joseph was? It can be difficult as we consider man's compared to God's responsibility, when the Bible describes God as Him "Who works all things after the counsel of His will." (Eph 1:11) I have come to understand this in that people will sin, and that is not God's fault. But their sin will only be allowed to affect me to the degree that God as determined will result in His purposes being fulfilled. (I welcome any comments on that) I believe that our mission is to give personal ministry to the people God has put around us, and that, as their lives are changed, social conditions will change. That ministry could be to preach the gospel, disciple, and hold them accountable for sin. God has also promised to fight for His people. Our first line of battle is prayer. Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | Modern application of slavery texts? | Titus 2:9 | Just Read Mark | 156515 | ||
An application question. Thanks, Mark, for your thoughtful reply. The story of Joseph is certainly a wonder: the way that such horrible deeds are brought to wonderful ends, and how those ends were even fortold in dreams at the beginnning. (In a weird kind of way, the dreams sprarked the jealousies, fueling the brothers cruel actions... so there is a kind of circle here. The circle brings us, at each point, back to God.) But, with the slavery question, I would like to try a modern application. This is not slavery per se, but similar I think. In Guatemala (as far as I understand it), most people live in poverty, and one critical concern is that very few people own land. The landowners are able to treat the workers very harshly, for there is no recourse. Some churches preach that the workers should accept their lot, live orderly lives, and live in the hope of heaven. Other churches preach that the injustice of their country needs to be reformed, and call on parishoners to work toward changing the laws of their society for the good of all. Church leaders advocate for the poor in the public sphere. What are the Biblical grounds for these positions, and is one more sound than the other? |
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6 | Modern application of slavery texts? | Titus 2:9 | mark d seyler | 156524 | ||
Hi JRM, I think both positions are correct. Heb 13:5 "Let your conversation (lifestyle) be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." This would apply to the slave. James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." This would apply to the one in whose power it is to do something about an injustice. The Old Testament Law had much to say about helping your neighbor, and Jesus reinforced that in His teaching. Phi 4:11 Not that I speak as to need, for I have learned to be content in whatever state I am. 12 And I know to be humbled, and I know to abound; in everything, and in all things, I am taught both to be filled and to hunger, both to abound, and to lack. 13 I have strength for all things in Christ the One strengthening me. 14 Yet you did well in sharing my troubles. Paul demonstrates this attitude regarding his material needs. On his part, he is not complaining about his lack, and has learned to be content with it. On the part of others, they do well to help Paul as they can. As a slave, or a factory worker in Guatemala, or Pakistan, or wherever, making one dollar a day, I am to be content. If I can improve my situation, I should, and to use it for the Kingdom. As an oppressor, I must repent, and treat my workers fairly. As an exploiter, James said it best: James 5:4 "Behold, the wages of the workmen who have reaped your fields cry out, being kept back by you. And the cries of the ones who have reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Hosts." And really, James 5:1-12 And as a bystander, if I have the opportunity to help my neighbor in need, and don't, that is sin. What are your thoughts? Love in Christ, Mark |
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7 | Modern application of slavery texts? | Titus 2:9 | Just Read Mark | 156561 | ||
Well, Mark. I really am enjoying your responses. I must read James again, I think! Submission is a spiritual discipline that can deepen the heart in many ways, and bring a sense of peace in many ways. So often, we are in the struggle to achieve... as a self-employed person, I wonder how submission should be working more in my life. Submission to the Word, submission to the needs of others... I ll have to think about this. Sorry, that was a bit off topic (sort of, but not) To sum up: The slaves task is to submit, not struggle for a change in status. The masters task is to be just, which results in good treatment of the worker, and perhaps release from slavery (and today, certainly)... And the bystander is called to love his neighbour (the slave) and contend for his freedom in whatever way possible. I see wisdom in each part of this. I still think it puts the Underground Railroad in a bad light, because in that case, the slaves made the moves themselves. With support of others, certainly, but mostly by themselvesÂÂ. Unions are another interesting case, where the under-dog struggles to bring change for the betterment of his group. goodnight. |
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8 | Define slavery as Paul meant? | Titus 2:9 | kokoa | 156572 | ||
Mark, I don't think that the term slavery was used in the same text that you are speaking of. I could be wrong, we can be slaves to a lot of things and I think that is what he meant, any way yes we can be faithful thru it just as the slaves of the cotton fields held true to their belief in God and kept the faith that He would one day deliver them from slavery. So I guess I need to ask the question What kind of slavery was Paul referring to???? | ||||||
9 | Define slavery as Paul meant? | Titus 2:9 | Barach | 156579 | ||
Actually, in this case Paul was referring to actual servitude. The Roman Empire culture supported slavery and the instition of slavery even had the protection of the imperial government. As a matter of fact, Paul respected the legal right of others, including fellow Christian, to own slaves. Note the admonition from Paul: "Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them." 1 Timothy 6:2 (New International Version) This fine attitude is often thought of as the Christian model for the "employee/employer" relationship. |
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10 | Define slavery as Paul meant? | Titus 2:9 | kokoa | 156831 | ||
Thanks Mark for that insight, I am just learning to translate what I am reading so if I come out of left field then you know why. Bear with me and I will understand it all one day. blessings!!! Kokoa | ||||||
11 | Define slavery as Paul meant? | Titus 2:9 | mark d seyler | 156834 | ||
Hi Kokoa, Please, bear with me! I might understand something eventually! ;-) Love in Christ, Mark |
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