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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Logic: The Means to Rightly Divide | 2 Tim 2:15 | DocTrinsograce | 143274 | ||
Hi, Brother Tim... Because of common grace, all men are able to use logic and arrive at valid conclusions. Obviously, though, there are people all around us that believe all kinds of erroneous things. Sometimes this is because of faulty reasoning. (That's why a large part of the study of rhetoric is concerned with logical fallacies.) Sometimes this is because there are presuppositions that are invalid. Sometimes this is simply because people don't take the time to think -- in fact, they don't want to think! As believers, our presuppositions are very different from atheists. Therefore, it is to be expected that our conclusions differ. "Why do the heathen rage?" Because they don't want to be told what to do! As a believer, we start with "Be it unto me according to Thy Word." In Him, Doc |
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2 | Logic: The Means to Rightly Divide | 2 Tim 2:15 | Morant61 | 143275 | ||
Greetings Doc! Thanks for the response my friend! One last question, and I promise I'll drop this topic! ;-) If we are capable of faulty reasoning (as you stated in your previous post), how do we know for sure that are inferences about Scripture are correct? For instance, if you infer that some music is immoral, how do you know that your inference is correct if Scripture doesn't explicitly state such a thing? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Logic: The Means to Rightly Divide | 2 Tim 2:15 | DocTrinsograce | 143282 | ||
Dear Brother Tim, Or, for instance, your inference that music is amoral? :-) I'm not certain which of us is the more stuborn! :-) First, we have a set of presuppositions that help us. (I love it when a question comes up that I've been studying!) These include the sufficiency, necessity, and inerrency of scripture. It is our ultimate authority. Second, we have what the divines used to call "the light of nature." That is, logic and minds to apply it. Third, we have a set of principles that guide us in our understanding of scripture. These principles are actually used in a far broader context than just scriptural interpretation. They are used every single day as we read secular books, technical documentation, legal documents, etc. These principles provide us with the means of functioning smoothly as a society. They also help us understand scripture. Fourth, we expose our thinking to a broad forum in an effort to expose any error. (Not just the BibleStudyForum.) (For example, most people don't realize the very scientific, closely scrutinized, and systematic way in which original manuscripts are studied. (Some of the folks doing this aren't even believers, but we trust there work because of logic -- see my other posts.)) We don't have one holy-joe telling us what to believe. Nor do we depend on things like personal feelings. We do not see truth as a matter of individual choosing. We have a huge history of men carefully considering the passages of scripture, writing their conclusions, and being critiqued. Concensus is not our ultimate authority, but we recognize that truth often comes in a consistent manner to the people of God. In Him, Doc Okay... here's the music stuff... In Exodus 32 we read Joshua exclaiming to Moses (v17), "There is a noise of war in the camp!" Moses says (v18), "It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear." This noise -- hardly worthy of the name music -- wasn't even recognized as such by these men. It only gradually dawned on them that what they were hearing was singing! The people were dancing about the image they had made (v19). They were also naked (v25), which gives the implication (inference?) of licentiousness as well. We know from Amos that God hates even religious music that is not offered in obedience from a heart that desires to please Him. How can we possibly imagine that the singing of the people in the camp was an indifferent sound to Him, considering the enormity of their sin? Could any part of their activity been anything but odious to Him? Now, in our discussion of music, this wasn't even an extremely important and necessary part of my argument. If we had only found a single instance of God being pleased or displeased with music it would have sufficed. So, since you are wondering, let me quickly move through the rest of the argument. For the sake of brevity (who me?) I may not prove every point as most of them have already been established. God defines what is true, what is pure, what is holy. The term amoral means "not admitting of moral distinctions or judgments; neither moral nor immoral." If music is amoral, therefore, God will never make moral distinctions about it. We will never see Him pleased or displeased with music. However, we DO find instances where God is pleased with music and other instances where God is displeased with music. Therefore, it necessarily follows that music is NOT amoral. Clearly, there is more study to do. For example, we cannot say particularly what are the aspects of moral music and immoral music. When God expresses pleasure or displeasure, does it have to do with lyrics? We'd need to examine the God pleasing and displeasing instances to see if singing was always involved. Etc. Remember we talked about presuppositions? People also have predispositions. We have to be careful that our predispositions do not interfere with our search for truth. For example, do we have some kind of vested interest in the results of our inquiry? (Sometimes people don't WANT the truth!) Or will we simply delight in the truth and ask God for grace to help us adjust our heads, hearts, hands, and habits accordingly? |
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4 | Logic: The Means to Rightly Divide | 2 Tim 2:15 | Morant61 | 143287 | ||
Greetings Doc! Okay! I'm done! Just let close with one statement, no more questions. ;-) You wrote: "However, we DO find instances where God is pleased with music and other instances where God is displeased with music. Therefore, it necessarily follows that music is NOT amoral." This is exactly the problem I have with inferences, because no where does God state in Scripture that is pleased or displeased with any particular music! :-) If He did, I would agree with you. Anyway, get better my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Logic: The Means to Rightly Divide | 2 Tim 2:15 | DocTrinsograce | 143290 | ||
Dear Brother Tim, I've explained the morality of music with inferences. Your turn: I'll ask you to explain something without inferences. :-) We'll take it off line, though. We've consumed enough of the bandwidth. In Him, Doc |
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