Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | kill all the boys and take the virgins? | Num 31:17 | DocTrinsograce | 175145 | ||
Dear Parable, If I may, I'd like to take a shot at answering these questions. Question #1, "how is Moses justified in ordering the murder of innocent male children and encouraging the officers to take the young virgin women for themselves?" Justification ultimately arises only from God Himself. The command for vengeance came came from the Lord (verse 1 and 2). Question #2, "in what capacity are the officers to 'take' the young virgins 'for themselves'? As wives, as mistresses, as concubines, what?" (sic) They were to be taken as slaves. There were two distinct kinds of slaves in Biblical times: First, there were the national slaves of the state. Usually, these were subjugated peoples (Numbers 31:25-47; Joshua 9:23; 2 Samuel 8:2, 14; 1 Chronicles 18:2, 6, 13). There was also a partial kind of slavery of people who owed a specific amount of labor, yet who lived otherwise free lives (Joshua 9:23). Second, there were people who entered slavery because of debt (Exodus 22:2; 2 Kings 4:1). Selling oneself into slavery was also an escape from extreme poverty (Leviticus 25:39; 25:13, 40). These kinds of slaves were to be freed in the year of Jubilee unless they chose to remain in the household of their master (Exodus 21:5-6; Deuteronomy 15:16-17). They were not required to serve more than six years (Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12). As with everything else in the Law, both royal and private slave owners often failed to abide by its requirements (Jeremiah 34:8-22). Although slaves were deemed property (Exodus 21:32; Leviticus 25:46), the rights of the owner were strictly limited while the slave's interests were protected. Abusive treatment of a slave would result in manumition (Exodus 21:26-27). There is a kind of modern pride that deems all of our own values as superior to that of other peoples in other times. We must remember that God's revelation in history was progressive. Our attitudes toward things like slavery are, hopefully, rooted in a clearer picture of charity in the light of the New Testament. However, in a great number of other areas, we are woefully hypocritical. In Him, Doc |
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2 | why kill boys yet spare girls? | Num 31:17 | Parable | 175172 | ||
Your commment about progressive revelation is on point. As for justification from God, that too is on point, yet its not clear to me where God instructed Moses to kill male children, yet spare virgin females for the purpose of having them as slaves. Boys can just as easily be taken as slaves, no? I'm interested in the reason why boys were distinguished from girls in this instance. Was it because sexual congress with the girls and/or procreation with them was implied, but this could not be the case with boys? |
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3 | why kill boys yet spare girls? | Num 31:17 | DocTrinsograce | 175173 | ||
Dear Parable, You wrote, "I'm interested in the reason why boys were distinguished from girls in this instance." Moses explains in verse 16. "Behold, these [the women, see verse 15], on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD." (Numbers 31:16 ESV) In Him, Doc |
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4 | what purpose served by this distinction? | Num 31:17 | Parable | 175200 | ||
Respectfully, I don't see how v15 addresses the question of distinction. Perhaps my question can be reformulated....was what happened full and correct obedience to God? If yes, what is God trying to do by having the boys (who by definition are not of the age of responsibility) killed, while having the virgin females spared and given to the officers? What purpose is served by eliminating the boys that would not have also been served by eliminating the virgin females? And conversely, what purpose is served by sparing the virgin females that would not have also been served by sparing the boys? Peace, Parable |
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5 | what purpose served by this distinction? | Num 31:17 | DocTrinsograce | 175201 | ||
Dear Parable, Yes, Moses action -- corrective action, actually -- was properly done in obedience to God, under His auspices, and by His explicit direction. "Why" questions are notoriously difficult. They are particularly so when we are seeking to understand God's motivation. Frequently God simply does not answer. I suspect there are three possible reasons for this: (1) it is none of our business (Deuteronomy 29:29); (2) we lack the intelligence to understand the answer; (3) we aren't really interested in an answer, instead we are just complaining. (If you are a parent, you will recognize all three of these instances in the lives of your children when they asked you "Why?") In this instance, since we are not told "why" you may simply need to dig further into the ancient culture and historical behavior of the Israelites. Beyond that, you may need to look elsewhere. However, a satisfactory answer may not be forthcoming. God isn't obligated to answer all of our questions. Here are a number commentators writing specifically on this passage. God bless you in your study. In Him, Doc "The sword of war should spare women and children; but the sword of justice should know no distinction, but that of guilty or not guilty. This war was the execution of a righteous sentence upon a guilty nation, in which the women were the worst criminals. The female children were spared, who, being brought up among the Israelites, would not tempt them to idolatry. The whole history shows the hatefulness of sin, and the guilt of tempting others; it teaches us to avoid all occasions of evil, and to give no quarter to inward lusts. The women and children were not kept for sinful purposes, but for slaves, a custom every where practised in former times, as to captives. In the course of providence, when famine and plagues visit a nation for sin, children suffer in the common calamity. In this case parents are punished in their children; and for children dying before actual sin, full provision is made as to their eternal happiness, by the mercy of God in Christ." --Matthew Henry John Gill comments on the women killed "who might be such, at least many of them, who had lain with Israelitish men; and as the adulterers had been put to death, so now the adulteresses; or they were ordered to, be slain, even all of them, lest they should entice the children of Israel to uncleanness, and so to idolatry again: now these were known to be such, either by conjecture at their age, or rather, through the examination of matrons, unless it can be thought, as it is by some, that it was by divine revelation." "The displeasure of the great leader, though it appears the ebullition of a fierce and sanguinary temper, arose in reality from a pious and enlightened regard to the best interests of Israel. No order had been given for the slaughter of the women, and in ancient war they were commonly reserved for slaves. By their antecedent conduct, however, the Midianitish women had forfeited all claims to mild or merciful treatment; and the sacred character, the avowed object of the war (Numbers 31:2-3), made their slaughter necessary without any special order. But why 'kill every male among the little ones'? It was designed to be a war of extermination, such as God Himself had ordered against the people of Canaan, whom the Midianites equalled in the enormity of their wickedness." --Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown "For this action I account simply on the principle that God, who is the author and supporter of life, has a right to dispose of it when and how he thinks proper; and the Judge of all the earth can do nothing but what is right. Of the women killed on this occasion it may be safely said, their lives were forfeited by their personal transgressions; and yet even in this case there can be little doubt that God showed mercy to their souls. The little ones were safely lodged; they were taken to heaven and saved from the evil to come." --Adam Clarke "It is not strange, nor unjust, that God, the supreme Lord of all mens lives, who as he gives them, so may take them away when he pleaseth, did equal them in the punishment. Every woman - Partly for punishment, because the guilt was general, and though some of them only did prostitute themselves to the Israelites, yet the rest made themselves accessary by their consent or approbation; and partly, for prevention of the like mischief from such an adulterous generation." --John Wesley |
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6 | 2 Tim 3:16 | Num 31:17 | Parable | 175216 | ||
Thank you for sharing your opinions about the purpose of this scripture and the interesting commentaries along those lines. My only concern, though, with the ideas that 1) its none of our business, 2) we're not smart enough to understand or 3) we're not interested and just want to complain, comes in light of 2 Tim 3:16 "Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, for training in righteousness" If the purpose of this scripture is not to be explained in the terms I have put the question, and that is certainly possible, then what purpose does Numbers 31:17-18 serve, among those listed by Paul to Timothy? |
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7 | 2 Tim 3:16 | Num 31:17 | DocTrinsograce | 175224 | ||
Dear Parable, None of my explanations for God's unwillingness to answer "why" questions contradicts 2 Timothy 3:16 or any other Scripture. Indeed, it is consistent with what we know about special and general revelation. Note, for example, one of the wisdom books: Job. It records a God-initiated set of events in the life of Job. The question it poses is "Why do the righteous suffer?" In 42 chapters, no answer is given. You wrote, "If the purpose of this scripture is not to be explained in the terms I have put the question, and that is certainly possible, then what purpose does Numbers 31:17-18 serve, among those listed by Paul to Timothy?" Now you are asking a completely different question. (By the way, every one of those commentators answered your original question. That was why I provided them for you.) 2 Timothy 3:16-17 reads, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." (ESV) The book of Numbers is a historic book. It is profitable for our instruction (teaching) about God's dealings with the Israelites in the past. It is reproof of our plans and intentions when they contravene the will of God. It is correction to our culturally based presuppositions associated with the explicit command of God. It stirs humility and reverential fear in our hearts, in the face of a God who both gives and takes life, thereby training us in righteousness. I could go on and on and on. The net effect is that we are better equipped for every good work. We are pretty much a compendium of laymen. As I suggested in a previous post, if you are not satisfied with the answers you receive, you should research the questions in more detail by leveraging resources elsewhere. We may have, quite simply, exhausted our resources and abilities. When you do find an answer with which you are satisfied, perhaps you can post it here for our consideration and edification. In Him, Doc |
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8 | 2 Tim 3:16 | Num 31:17 | Parable | 175231 | ||
God's unwillingness to answer is not the point. My question relates to what the Word says about what was done in His name. While your commentaries are insightful, they are not scripture, which is what I am trying to understand. And, you suggest all the commentaries you provided answered my orginal question. I disagree. Here are the relevant excerpts, with my observations (in parens): Matthew Henry -- "The female children were spared, who, being brought up among the Israelites, would not tempt them to idolatry." (this explains why they were spared, but not why the boys were killed) Your paraphrase -- "John Gill comments on the women killed ...." (this explains why the women were killed, but does not address why the virgin females were spared nor why the boys were killed) Robert Jamieson, et al, -- "No order had been given for the slaughter of the women, and in ancient war they were commonly reserved for slaves." (this explains why the officer brought them back from war) "...the Midianitish women had forfeited all claims to mild or merciful treatment; and the sacred character, the avowed object of the war (Numbers 31:2-3), made their slaughter necessary without any special order." (this explains why the women were killed) "But why 'kill every male among the little ones'? It was designed to be a war of extermination, such as God Himself had ordered against the people of Canaan, whom the Midianites equalled in the enormity of their wickedness." (if a war of extermination, then killing the boys is consistent with that, but sparing the virgin females is not) Adam Clarke -- "The little ones were safely lodged; they were taken to heaven and saved from the evil to come." (so, killing the boys was essentially an act of mercy. if so, then this mercy was denied to the virgin females. why?) John Wesley -- "Every woman - Partly for punishment, because the guilt was general, and though some of them only did prostitute themselves to the Israelites, yet the rest made themselves accessary by their consent or approbation; and partly, for prevention of the like mischief from such an adulterous generation." (this explains the killing of the women, and perhaps the boys, but does not speak to why the virgin females were spared) Finally, while I appreciate your encouragement to explore this topic elsewhere and report my findings, to be honest it feels more like I am being dismissed, now that you have answered my question yet I have somehow not understood your meaning. My question remains best stated in two parts: 1. What purpose is served by eliminating the boys that would not have also been served by eliminating the virgin females? 2. Conversely, what purpose is served by sparing the virgin females that would not have also been served by sparing the boys? If anyone has any scriptural references that speak to the distinction between the boys and virgin females that I have articulated, please advise. Otherwise, it seems God's purpose with this distiction, if it is indeed real, is not to be revealed in His Word. |
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9 | 2 Tim 3:16 | Num 31:17 | DocTrinsograce | 175238 | ||
"...if it is indeed real..." What alternative are you suggesting? | ||||||
10 | 2 Tim 3:16 | Num 31:17 | Parable | 175241 | ||
In science and law, it is recognized that the evidence we consider often is shaped by the questions we ask. I am mindful that hermaneutics is not exempt from this. It is possible that the distinction I see is more about how I think and less about how God thinks. | ||||||
11 | 2 Tim 3:16 | Num 31:17 | DocTrinsograce | 175242 | ||
I see... Thank you for the clarification. | ||||||