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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | sonnex | 173071 | ||
In Ephesians 4:11, it is said that God gave gifts such as apostles, prophets, evangelists,teachers and pastors. Are these gifts still applicable today? Kindly enlighten me on this with verses. |
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2 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | bro Raymond | 173072 | ||
I wrote a treatise in 2004 in defense of present day apostles (and prophets) because I became convinced through personal experience and later a study of Acts and the Epistles that all five offices are needed and are indeed witnessed today. (Please note that people in the Christian Church don't usually question whether Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers exist). In essence what I learned from my extended study was that even after the Twelve Apostles of Christ were named there were several other men called to the fivefold ministry including Paul (I Corinth. 15:3-9)and Barnabas (Acts 14:4,14)as well as James, the Lord's brother (Gal.1:18-19).For the existence of prophets, see also Acts, esp. Ac.11:27; 21:10; 15:32. see also Gal.1:8 for Paul's suggestion as to why apostles are needed-an apostle to each people group, possibly. | ||||||
3 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | BradK | 173077 | ||
bro raymond, Were any of them with the Lord some 2000 years ago? Your diligence is noted but your conclusion is not only highly speculative, it is without foundation! Did you arrive at this conclusion on your own? Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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4 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | bro Raymond | 173081 | ||
were any of who with the Lord 2000 years ago? and yes i came to the conclusion by asking the Spirit of Truth and by study. And how would you answer the question? | ||||||
5 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | BradK | 173084 | ||
dear bro raymond, The position you asserted ( I believe) was that Apostolic Succession is in order today. I disagree and do not think you've provided anything concrete from scripture to establish your position. Those who are "apostles" today are the ones I was referring to. 1. This is a public Forum (with guidelines), so expect that all of our views would be open to scrutiny (mine included); 2. Since you are the one making the assertion (or claim), the burden of proof is on you to establish it's validity; As I see it, the qualification for an apostle is one who was with the Lord and/or witnessed His resurrection (Acts 1:22). Paul saw the Lord and spent time with Him (1 Cor. 15:8, Gal. 1:12, 15-16). I trust that this will help to establish a fruitful dialog:-) BradK |
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6 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | bro Raymond | 173085 | ||
A New Definition Not only did that I realize that God’s Church needs prophets but I also discovered some fascinating things about apostles. I discovered that even though Jesus had chosen the Twelve to start the Church initially, he also called other apostles later on to start his church among the Gentiles. In fact Paul in Galatians said, For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles(1:8). This could possibly mean that God has a set of apostles for each group of people, since Peter was the chief apostle to the Jews as Paul was the chief apostle to the Gentiles. (NB, the KJV uses apostleship where other versions use ministry to). The first passage which I came upon in Acts which caused me to see that apostleship was a gifting and not a closed position, was Ac.14:4, 14 which calls Paul and Barnabas, apostles. The reader will do good to go back to (11:26) and note that at that time Paul was a teacher and even in 13:1 was still described by Luke as among the prophets and teachers at Antioch, Syria. (Yet only one chapter later Luke calls him and Barnabas apostles). Indeed, Barnabas and Paul were noted as teachers from chapter 11, but in 13:1 the Holy Spirit came and told the group to set apart both men to the ministry or apostleship (see above) unto which he had called them. Then when we meet them in Acts14:4, 14,while they are on the field, Luke calls them both apostles showing at the very least Luke’s conception of an apostle: one sent out by the Holy Spirit. Paul not only gives this impression (NB. Luke was Paul’s disciple), but blows the elitist idea out the window. Some say Paul was the replacement for Judas but Paul cherished no such idea as he gave his own view on the matter in 1Co.15:3-9. As far as he was concerned the Twelve were accounted for and states that he was just another apostle, who was born out of due time. Also I believe Rom.15:17-21 gives Paul’s understanding of an apostle. (Compare that to Kinghorn’s definition below). Further, in Ephesians 2, Paul describes that God gave his revelation of the church age to his holy apostles and prophets. So one could infer that the apostles and the prophets especially the apostles are not necessarily an elite group but are given for the establishing and further development of the church and serve to raise up the other four to assist him in the church’s total ministry; a few people have said that the apostle was given first place in the Church to raise up the other leaders and hence he can do all five ministries (I tend to agree with them) -1Co.12:28-31.... In my search for meaning, I also came across two books, which I do believe give a better basis for evaluating who or what is an apostle. The two books, if you can find them are: Discovering Your Spiritual Gifts by K.C. Kinghorn and Rediscovering the Charismata by Charles V. Bryant (Waco: Word Bks, 1986). Observe Kinghorn’s definition below: Apostleship is the ability to communicate the Christian message across cultural (and frequently linguistic barriers) and plant a Christian Church where there is no knowledge of the gospel. The term in Greek (apostolos) and Latin (missio) means a sent one or a messenger. The rough modern equivalent is a pioneer missionary. Warren Wiersbe, in his book, Be Free, 1975, writes, Apostle,Special Messenger, Agent, II Co.8.23, Phil. 2.25, Rom. 16.7… One who is sent with a commission. Bryant writes: APOSTOLOS – Ambassador, delegate, one sent out, a messenger, a herald. Further he writes, An apostle, in a general sense, is a person who adheres to the personality and teaching of another and who willingly goes out to espouse the teaching and to placard the personality… He is not the message but the messenger. Since he gives a similar definition to Kinghorn later in his book, I will just add this pertinent point and close: This ability may go beyond merely being an herald or messenger to that of effectively organizing and overseeing groupings of people who are being discipled. Some missionaries may have the gift of apostleship, but not all missionaries are apostles; and all apostles are not missionaries. Apostleship is not an office.(end of quote from Apostle Squabble, 2004) Paul in a specific way does not fit the bill to Be among the Twelve but he fits the bill of a commission Ac.9:15-16;23:7-10 and 13:2 where Barnabas is commmissioned but does not see the Lord. Thanks for asking. This interaction is helpful. God Bless |
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7 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | Searcher56 | 173093 | ||
God's day to you, bro Raymond, Both Paul and Barnabas meet the qualifications of being an apostle, based on the Sctipture Brad cited ... it is not a gift. In Acts - where does it say it is a gift? Moreover, does the passage in Ephesisans say these are gifts? Searcher | ||||||
8 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | bro Raymond | 173355 | ||
I was not aware that this was the case so you need to show me how it does.There are some specific things said there in the text which seemingly does not apply to either of these men. Thanks in advance. The passage in Ephesians says "he gave some to be ..." Indeed Eph. 4:7-8 says: "he gave gifts to men (then)... v.11 continues the train of thought by saying, "he gave some to be.." See also 1 Cor.12:27-31, a premier Gifts Chapter in the New Testament. |
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9 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | Searcher56 | 173358 | ||
Word Study ... Charisma, Charis ................... God's day to you bro Raymond, Just because the word is the same in English, does not mean it is (even close to being) the same in the original. I use http://bible1.crosswalk.com/ to gather my info. In 1 Corinthians, the word gift is Charisma (a noun neuter) is the from the verb charizomai (to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify) a middle voice verb from noun feminine Charis (grace) from the verb Chairo (to rejoice, be glad). Gift in Ephesians is Dorea, noun feminine, from noun neuter Doron ... also gift. I don't believe these Greek words are related, except by how they were translated. Searcher |
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10 | Eph. 4:11 gifts applicable today? | Eph 4:12 | bro Raymond | 173360 | ||
that is a very good observation, my brother. thanks for the tip. Looking forward to hearing more from you on the above topic though. |
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