Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | kalos | 112640 | ||
Oneness and the word "person" ' Oneness theology denies the Trinity doctrine and claims that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three separate persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three separate, simultaneous, persons. Please note, though, this is not saying there are three gods. ' In defending the doctrine of the Trinity and in examining the Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead, it is first necessary to define the terms that are used. Since the Trinity doctrine states there are three persons in one God, and Oneness Pentecostal theology states there is only one person, we first need to know what a "person" is before we try to discover whether or not God is three persons or one. Therefore, what qualifies someone as having "personhood"? ' I offer the following analysis as an attempt to adequately define personhood. After the outline, I will attempt to show that the definition and/or characteristics of personhood can be applied to both the Father and the Son in a context that shows they both existed as persons at the same time, thereby proving Oneness theology is incorrect. 'What are the qualities and attributes of being a person? 'A person exists and has identity. 'A person is aware of his own existence and identity. 'This precludes the condition of being unconscious. 'A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc. 'A person can recognize the existence of other persons. 'This is true provided there were other persons around him or her. 'Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc. 'A person possesses a will. 'A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose. 'A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject. 'Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment. 'Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons. 'A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions. 'Persons do not need to have bodies. 'God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels. 'Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). ' God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will. ' The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead. '"Let this cup pass from Me." '"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done'" (Luke 22:42). '"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'" (Matt. 26:39). ' In both Luke 22:42 and Matt. 26:39 (which are parallel passages), the context is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, right before His betrayal. He was praying to the Father about the ordeal He was about to undergo. Several points are worth bringing out here. ' First, in this passage, Jesus addresses the Father. He says, "Oh my Father..." Note that Jesus says "my" and "Father." These two words designate a "me and you" relationship. ' Second, "If it be possible" is Jesus expressing a desire, a hope. What is that hope or desire? It is that "this cup pass from me." The cup Jesus is speaking of is the immanent ordeal of betrayal, scourging, and crucifixion. Jesus did not want to go through this. He was expressing His desire. It was His will not to undergo the severe ordeal ahead of Him. If this was not so, He would not have expressed the desire to have the cup pass from Him. ' Third, in Matt. 26:39, Jesus says, "Nevertheless., not my will, but thine, be done." In Luke 22:42 he says, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." With this, Jesus is expressing His will and contrasting it to the will of the Father. Yet, He is stating that even though He does not want to undergo what lay ahead, "Nevertheless," He would submit to the will of the Father. ' This shows that the person of Jesus had a separate and different will than the Father. Since we have two separate simultaneous wills, we have two separate and simultaneous persons and Oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect.' ____________________ (www.carm.org) 2cor1314 |
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2 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | punkiedo | 112670 | ||
According to this analogy we are right. Jesus said John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Jesus was bewildered by the fact that they thought that he was 2 people. I think it probably tickles him to know there are people who think he is 3. John 10 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one. 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. The jews were going to kill Jesus because he said he was God. So with the previous scriptures we have determined that The father's name is What? JESUS. And of course the son's name is JESUS. But what about the Holy Ghost? John 14 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Jesus said the Holy Ghost would come in HIS NAME. So the name of the Holy Ghost is JESUS. Now Let's bring those together shall we. Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. WAIT!!! didn't someone just say in Malachi 2:10 That ONE GOD CREATED US? Hmmmm. Would you dare to call Jesus a liar? Didn't think so. Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (Now for the 2 above verses you have to understand something the greek word for "and" is kai (kahee) meaning: even. Both words that tie in God AND mediator or God AND father mean the same thing. EVEN. Also the And that ties AND IN YOU ALL means EVEN. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Do you know that when Jesus told people that their sins were forgiven that he almost was stoned because at that point he placed himself as God. Jesus said I LAY MY LIFE DOWN AND I TAKE IT AGAIN. So once again is the bible wrong when it says God raised him from the dead NO!!!!! JESUS WAS GOD. Jesus IS God. and he will forever be God. 1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Colossians 2 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: So if all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ Bodily. Then how on earth could there be three? Jesus was the FATHER in Creation the SON in Redemption and the HOLY GHOST in Regeneration. Jesus said John 14 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jesus Told them that he would pray for the comforter to come. In the same breath he said BUT YE KNOW HIM FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU. I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS: I WILL COME TO YOU. (emphasis added) I don't understand how someone can look at it and see three. I am a woman, a daughter, and a sister. But how many people am I? ONE. I am body, soul and mind. But how many people am I? ONE. |
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3 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | Makarios | 112835 | ||
Punkiedo, It amazes me when those who subscribe to the "Oneness" heresy seek to justify their position after reading such passages of scripture as the one below: (re-post of kalos [02/21/04]) "The Trinity in John 14:11-26 (KJV) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. [12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments. [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. [19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. [20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. [25] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. [26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 2cor1314" |
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4 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | punkiedo | 113060 | ||
Makarios, I apologize for not getting back to you in a reasonable amount of time. As I had to take this information to my husband (Jesus) and ask him. You see, I feel a great burden for people who are blinded by this way of thinking. And Makarios, Here are some interesting things: John 7 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) ***He is refering to the Acts Experience** Something else that interests me. Matthew 1 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Luke 1 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And here is what interests me. You say there is God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. But if the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, Wouldn't the Holy Ghost be the father? But in Luke it says and he will be called the SON OF GOD. See God had this "Problem" (if you will) He needed a perfect sinless sacrifice. But ALL HAVE SINNED. And this perfect God searched through heaven and earth Isaiah 59:16 to find a man but could not find one worthy. So he came down in his infinite creativity and love and mercy and created a body inside of a woman. This little creation was formed around the hand of God. See God had to have a body. Jesus is his body. Spirits do not have bodies, you can't see them, so in essence Jesus is the very FACE of God. There aren't three. There is one. Can you KILL God? NO. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Without a body, God could not have remitted the sins. Spirits do not bleed. So this infinite spirit had to have FLESH AND BONE. Jesus is the almighty God. In Revelations 1:8 It is JESUS talking and he says I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING, If your Jesus is the second person in the Godhead then YOU ARE NOT READING YOUR BIBLE. Jesus was the first and the last. AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. |
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