Results 1 - 10 of 10
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | kalos | 112639 | ||
Oneness and the word "person" ' Oneness theology denies the Trinity doctrine and claims that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three separate persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three separate, simultaneous, persons. Please note, though, this is not saying there are three gods. ' In defending the doctrine of the Trinity and in examining the Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead, it is first necessary to define the terms that are used. Since the Trinity doctrine states there are three persons in one God, and Oneness Pentecostal theology states there is only one person, we first need to know what a "person" is before we try to discover whether or not God is three persons or one. Therefore, what qualifies someone as having "personhood"? ' I offer the following analysis as an attempt to adequately define personhood. After the outline, I will attempt to show that the definition and/or characteristics of personhood can be applied to both the Father and the Son in a context that shows they both existed as persons at the same time, thereby proving Oneness theology is incorrect. 'What are the qualities and attributes of being a person? 'A person exists and has identity. 'A person is aware of his own existence and identity. 'This precludes the condition of being unconscious. 'A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc. 'A person can recognize the existence of other persons. 'This is true provided there were other persons around him or her. 'Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc. 'A person possesses a will. 'A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose. 'A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject. 'Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment. 'Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons. 'A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions. 'Persons do not need to have bodies. 'God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels. 'Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). ' God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will. ' The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead. '"Let this cup pass from Me." '"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done'" (Luke 22:42). '"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'" (Matt. 26:39). ' In both Luke 22:42 and Matt. 26:39 (which are parallel passages), the context is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, right before His betrayal. He was praying to the Father about the ordeal He was about to undergo. Several points are worth bringing out here. ' First, in this passage, Jesus addresses the Father. He says, "Oh my Father..." Note that Jesus says "my" and "Father." These two words designate a "me and you" relationship. ' Second, "If it be possible" is Jesus expressing a desire, a hope. What is that hope or desire? It is that "this cup pass from me." The cup Jesus is speaking of is the immanent ordeal of betrayal, scourging, and crucifixion. Jesus did not want to go through this. He was expressing His desire. It was His will not to undergo the severe ordeal ahead of Him. If this was not so, He would not have expressed the desire to have the cup pass from Him. ' Third, in Matt. 26:39, Jesus says, "Nevertheless., not my will, but thine, be done." In Luke 22:42 he says, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." With this, Jesus is expressing His will and contrasting it to the will of the Father. Yet, He is stating that even though He does not want to undergo what lay ahead, "Nevertheless," He would submit to the will of the Father. ' This shows that the person of Jesus had a separate and different will than the Father. Since we have two separate simultaneous wills, we have two separate and simultaneous persons and Oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect.' ____________________ (www.carm.org) 2cor1314 |
||||||
2 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | kalos | 112640 | ||
Oneness and the word "person" ' Oneness theology denies the Trinity doctrine and claims that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three separate persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three separate, simultaneous, persons. Please note, though, this is not saying there are three gods. ' In defending the doctrine of the Trinity and in examining the Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead, it is first necessary to define the terms that are used. Since the Trinity doctrine states there are three persons in one God, and Oneness Pentecostal theology states there is only one person, we first need to know what a "person" is before we try to discover whether or not God is three persons or one. Therefore, what qualifies someone as having "personhood"? ' I offer the following analysis as an attempt to adequately define personhood. After the outline, I will attempt to show that the definition and/or characteristics of personhood can be applied to both the Father and the Son in a context that shows they both existed as persons at the same time, thereby proving Oneness theology is incorrect. 'What are the qualities and attributes of being a person? 'A person exists and has identity. 'A person is aware of his own existence and identity. 'This precludes the condition of being unconscious. 'A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc. 'A person can recognize the existence of other persons. 'This is true provided there were other persons around him or her. 'Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc. 'A person possesses a will. 'A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose. 'A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject. 'Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment. 'Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons. 'A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions. 'Persons do not need to have bodies. 'God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels. 'Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). ' God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will. ' The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead. '"Let this cup pass from Me." '"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done'" (Luke 22:42). '"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'" (Matt. 26:39). ' In both Luke 22:42 and Matt. 26:39 (which are parallel passages), the context is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, right before His betrayal. He was praying to the Father about the ordeal He was about to undergo. Several points are worth bringing out here. ' First, in this passage, Jesus addresses the Father. He says, "Oh my Father..." Note that Jesus says "my" and "Father." These two words designate a "me and you" relationship. ' Second, "If it be possible" is Jesus expressing a desire, a hope. What is that hope or desire? It is that "this cup pass from me." The cup Jesus is speaking of is the immanent ordeal of betrayal, scourging, and crucifixion. Jesus did not want to go through this. He was expressing His desire. It was His will not to undergo the severe ordeal ahead of Him. If this was not so, He would not have expressed the desire to have the cup pass from Him. ' Third, in Matt. 26:39, Jesus says, "Nevertheless., not my will, but thine, be done." In Luke 22:42 he says, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." With this, Jesus is expressing His will and contrasting it to the will of the Father. Yet, He is stating that even though He does not want to undergo what lay ahead, "Nevertheless," He would submit to the will of the Father. ' This shows that the person of Jesus had a separate and different will than the Father. Since we have two separate simultaneous wills, we have two separate and simultaneous persons and Oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect.' ____________________ (www.carm.org) 2cor1314 |
||||||
3 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | jcsav | 112662 | ||
That is nowhere close to Webster. You stated what the qualities and attributes of a Person is. You did not state what a Person is. A person has a personality. God has a Personality (one) and he is a Spirit. More than one would make a Split personality even without a body. | ||||||
4 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | Makarios | 112836 | ||
Jcsav, It amazes me when those who subscribe to the "Oneness" heresy seek to justify their position after reading such passages of scripture as the one below: (re-post of kalos [02/21/04]) "The Trinity in John 14:11-26 (KJV) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. [12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments. [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. [19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. [20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. [25] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. [26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 2cor1314" |
||||||
5 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | jcsav | 112852 | ||
Then why have you not keep his Words? When Peter told you to repent and be baptized in Jesus name. Why didn't you do so? The Gospel that I preach it will be your Judge in the last day. | ||||||
6 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | Morant61 | 112853 | ||
Greetings Jcsav! Rom. 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Makarios will have no need to fear judgement, since he is in Christ Jesus! :-) I have been following this debate in my spare time, but I have not posted to it as of yet. So, please allow me to ask you one simple question. In John 14:16, Jesus says, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—" Now, the word 'another' is the English translation of the Greek word 'allos'. The Enhanced Strongs says that this word indicates 'numerical distinction' or 'one besides'. Based upon the Oneness view, how can the Holy Spirit be 'another' Counselor? Yet, God's Word specifically says that this 'other' Counselor would be 'numerically distinct' from the Father. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
7 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | jcsav | 112916 | ||
Tim, I take it that you meant Comforter in place of Counselor. Matt 10:20 states:" For it is not ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." I don't think I will be using the Enchance Strongs. I don't know why they Enchanced it. I will check into it when I have the time. | ||||||
8 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | srbaegon | 112919 | ||
Hello jcsav, You haven't addressed Tim's comment: "Based upon the Oneness view, how can the Holy Spirit be 'another' Counselor? Yet, God's Word specifically says that this 'other' Counselor would be 'numerically distinct' from the Father." Whether the word is translated "Comforter," "Counselor," or "Helper" (all three are legitimate translations), we're still taklking about another of the same kind (i.e. the same, yet distinct). Steve |
||||||
9 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | jcsav | 112975 | ||
Steve, I have now answered. I do not have the time to answer every question, what you see as a question that is a good one and I did not answer. Remember that I may not see it as such. Oneness seems to attact a great deal of interest and the mail is some times more than can be handled. I have other responsibilites that need my time. | ||||||
10 | Oneness and the word "person" | 2 Cor 13:14 | srbaegon | 112981 | ||
Hello jcsav, Oneness attracts so much interest because it is heresy having been proved so hundreds of years ago. Steve |
||||||