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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Ordo Salutis Answers to Mark's Verses | Rom 8:30 | DocTrinsograce | 172532 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, As a refresher, the orthodox ordo salutis is: election, predestination, gospel call, inward call, regeneration, conversion (faith and repentance), justification, sanctification, glorification. In post #172484 you asked if there was another way to look at the following: He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:11-13) The passage shows us that adoption (i.e., "power to become the sons of God") is contingent on conversion (i.e., "believed on His name") and that both things are done by those who are regenerate (i.e., "born ... of God"). No passage of Scripture exhaustively states the ordo salutis. This passage does, however, support components of the orthodox position, while doing so in harmony with the whole. In post #172484 you asked if there was another way to look at the following: For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10) In chapter seven of the second epistles to the Corinthian congregation, Paul is commending the believers for how they responded to his correction in a previous letter (2 Corinthians 7:7-9). The believers at Corinth were in need of confrontation and rebuke. God brought conviction and they amended their ways (2 Corinthians 7:11). Paul is not speaking here of the components of salvation. He is encouraging the believers that their repentance is an aspect of their being saved. He contrasts it with worldly repentance, which is no repentance at all. Godly sorrow for sin attends the lives and is characteristic of the saved. Worldly sorrow for sin (i.e., regret) attends the lives and is characteristic of the lost. We must be very careful not to confuse the descriptive with the prescriptive. In post #172484 you asked if there was another way to look at the following: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. (Acts 16:30-32) Here is the famous plea to Paul and Silas by the keeper of the jail of Thyatira. I've always thought that the actual question of the jailer might be more readily rendered into modern parlance as, "What can I do to keep from being killed!" I've never been fully convinced that he had theology on his mind. He was shook up by what he'd seen and was certain that his life would be forfeit for the release of his prisoners. Paul and Silas, however, respond with the Gospel assertion that salvation is for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ -- a statement much attested to elsewhere in Scripture. More importantly note that they go to the jailer's home and "spake unto him the word of the Lord" which he and his household joyfully received (see verse 34) believing God. This is the normative fashion by which the Gospel is preached. It does not contravene the ordo salutis. On the contrary, we see the divine providence acting at every point. In post #172484 you asked if there was another way to look at the following: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19) As has been pointed out, repentance and faith are indivisible aspects of conversion (see at the top of the post). In this sermon of Peter in the temple asserts what their faith must be founded in: what God has done (verses 12-18). He is calling for them to repent of their disbelief. Note the component that follows conversion in the ordo salutis: justification. Justification is the forensic work of God in which the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer. "Blotting out" was understood by the Jews both in a legal and a theological sense -- in fact, I doubt they would have distinguished those aspects. See Isaiah 43:25, 44:22; Psalms 51:1, 9; Jeremiah 18:23; Nehemiah 4:5; etc. Again, the orthodox ordo solutis is affirmed rather than abrogated. In Him, Doc |
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2 | Ordo Salutis Answers to Mark's Verses | Rom 8:30 | mark d seyler | 172598 | ||
Hi Doc, Thank you for the refresher! It's the point you claim of regeneration coming before repentance that I am especially interested in. Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, Joh 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. (LITV) Thank you for explaining you view of this passage. I think I understand what you are saying. In your analysis, you have placed “were born of God” chronologically before “became children of God”. I look at being “born of God” as how we “become children of God.” So I think therein lies our difference in understanding. Are you aware of any passage in Scripture that I may be overlooking that tells us that second birth actually precedes our adoption? For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10) Again, thank you for your explanation of how you understand this passage. It seems that you do not consider it to be making a definitive statement of the order of salvation since the main purpose of the Holy Spirit at this time is not instructing in the doctrines of salvation, but rather regarding the correction of the Church. I can’t imagine the Holy Spirit writing in such a misleading manner as to indicate, even in the course of speaking on another subject, that something was a way that it actually wasn’t. So even though that was not God’s primary subject in this portion of Scripture, I tend to hold that every word should be taken with full seriousness, even those that might seem to be secondary. Can you point me to a “prescriptive” Scripture that tells us that we are to be regenerated before we repent? Act 16 28 But Paul called out with a loud voice, saying, Do no harm to yourself! For we are all here. 29 And asking for lights, he rushed in. And becoming trembly, he fell before Paul and Silas. 30 And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do that I may be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. Once again, thank you for sharing with me your understanding of this. I guess it doesn’t make much sense to me that the jailer was asking how to save his life from the Romans, since Paul had already reassured him that the prisoners were all there, and now the jailer was himself leading them out. It seems to me that they were past that. So Paul answers “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.” This seems a lot different than “If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you have been saved.” Again, why would the Holy Spirit be so misleading if regeneration actually came first? Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19) “Be converted”, while the translators make it sound like a passive verb, is actually an active verb, and as such, we should understand the verse to be instructing us to repent, and be converted – both things that we do. We do these things in order that our sins may be blotted out, as you say, that we may be justified. But “being converted” cannot be regeneration, since it is something that we do. I do not wish to seem ungracious, you have taken the time to do as I asked, and explained the alternative ways you understand these verses. I have to admit that I have some difficulties as I have written above. But I truly do appreciate your taking the time and effort for me. Thank you! Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | Ordo Salutis Answers to Mark's Verses | Rom 8:30 | DocTrinsograce | 172672 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, As asked, I've rendered up alternative interpretations of these passages. The interpretations I offered can be confirmed as being rooted in sound exegesis by checking with a variety of commentators. You asked, "Can you point me to a 'prescriptive' Scripture that tells us that we are to be regenerated before we repent?" I guess I'd have to answer no in the same way that I'd answer no to the question, "Can you point out a black dog that is white." Perhaps definitions are in order again: Descriptive language deals with the state of things. Prescriptive language deals with what ought to be done to attain a given state. One describes, the other prescribes. Here is an example: "Joe told a lie." (Descriptive) "Joe should tell the truth." (Prescriptive) John 3:16 is descriptive. Mark 1:15 is prescriptive. Much error is rooted in the confusion of the two. Back to my studies... its late... at least for me. In Him, Doc |
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