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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Mr. Perkins' Website/Chart | Rom 8:30 | DocTrinsograce | 129667 | ||
Yes, the ordo salutis (sorry for mispelling it before!) is defined as the order of decrees by God in the redemptive process. The entire process is the work of God and is by grace alone. Baptism is, in any case, something that men do, though some traditions see it as a "means of grace." Regardless, though it is a sacrament we are commanded to do, it is not a decree, and therefore does not belong in this particular analysis. | ||||||
2 | Mr. Perkins' Website/Chart | Rom 8:30 | Emmaus | 129679 | ||
Doc, For those who hold to baptismal regeneration Baptism is not "something that men do." It is rather something that Christ, through his mystical body, does. Emmaus |
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3 | Mr. Perkins' Website/Chart | Rom 8:30 | DocTrinsograce | 129686 | ||
I'm sorry, Emmaus. I was trying to explain why William Perkins probably excluded Baptism. I am not entirely unsympathetic with the thought you are expressing, although we would probably disagree with the specific definition of our terms. I did not intend to imply that there is no spiritual component to Baptism. In the most common of Baptist traditions baptism is considered purely symbolic. However, I have very dear Lutheran and Presbyterian friends who see it much more in the kind of light with which you would be familiar and agreeable. You would necessarily agree, however, that the act itself is one that is performed by men upon men as an act of the corporeal church. By that, I mean that it is a physical act. That is what I meant by "something that men do." (Christ baptized no one while on the earth, and the Spirit and Father do not baptize, being non-corporeal.) It was not my intention to impugned your historic traditional perspective. |
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4 | Mr. Perkins' Website/Chart | Rom 8:30 | Emmaus | 129688 | ||
Doc, As with most things here discussed, christ is the key! In Christ the Spiritual and corporal meet! Christ is THE Sacrament, a sign (physical) which accomplishes (spitually) what it signifies by the very physicqal act. i.e. the saving work of Christ's passion and death. All sacraments and their grace flow from the font of the cross. And we, the Church are now Christ's corporal presence in the world. One of the key differences between Catholics other Christians is that Catholics, because of how they view the Incarnation and its significance, not not feel constrained to separate the spiritual and physical. They do not have an either / or approach to things but rather a both / and approach. Man is not a purely spiritual being like the angels, but an integrated being composed of body and soul. And Christ came to redeem that and restore what the Father created. He took on our body that we mightagain take on his spirit, so to speak. And so cthaolics love "smells and bells" because with them we may worship God with our whole mind and BODY and strength. For us it is a beautiful thing. Christ sanctified the physical and redeemed it by the incarnation. It is interesting that under the lawwhen a clean thing came inot contact withan unclean thing, the clean thing became unclean. But with Christ when an unclean thing came into contacvt with Him (THE clean thing), the unlean (e.g. lepers) became clean. Of course there is some dispute about whether Christ actually baptized people in John 4:1, but no dispute about his command to baptize in Matt 27:19 where the making of disciples, the Gospel and the baprism arew all tied together in one verse. No offense was taken by you comments. I just think that most people misunderstand exactly what catholics thing about many things and it is usually reflected in their choice of descriptive or expalnatory words and phrases,although not necesarily with any malice. It merely reflects their own frame of reference. Emmaus |
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