Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Where is the church in Revelation 4? | Matt 24:30 | Searcher56 | 75253 | ||
Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. ... verse 3 then describes Him. is this the church? Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. Do you see the church here? ... only 24 people. Verses 5-6 describe what is happening and introduces the four living creatures. Verses 7-9 continue to decribe them. Are they the church? The last two verses tell the response of the twenty-four elders ... true worship, not the so-called worship of today. So tell me where is the church? While the church is not mentioned, there are those who refuse to take the mark or worship the beast ... who are they? Verses 3-4 describe what is happening. Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. Do you see the church here? ... only 24 people. |
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2 | Where is the church in Revelation 4? | Matt 24:30 | Aixen7z4 | 75255 | ||
Truly I see that Scripture is given to us to reveal what God wants us to know, and it does not anticipate our questions. We must accept what we are told and patiently ponder its meaning. May I say that the God who made us gave to us the faculty of perception, and he knows how it works. We see in part and we know in part, but what we see is evidence of what we do not see. So, I see your question and I assume you are there and that you are at a computer. I see a head and I assume there is a body. That is the way it always works. When I see a few people emerging from a church, I assume there are more inside. When I see the elders, unless I am told that they have been separated from the church they represent, I assume the church is there. Does this make sense? I tell you, that is the way perception always works. We extrapolate from the evidence. Those who refuse the mark of the beast, who are they? It seems they are the ones who will be saved later, out of the great tribulation. I trust this does not give rise to yet another set of questions, but I take them to be Jews, the 144,000 who will be saved. These are the only ones, to my understanding, who will be saved after the rapture. We do need to search the Scriptures carefully. When we do, I think we will see that the Rapture precedes the Great Tribulation and that the Second Coming follows it. There is so much more that will happen in the end times. We may not understand it all, but we should personally prepare by trusting Christ for our salvation. We should turn from the idols, and work and watch and wait for him. Aixen. |
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3 | Are the 24 elders, the church,? | Matt 24:30 | Searcher56 | 75259 | ||
Scripture ... Rev 4:8-11, 5:8-10, 11:15-18 ... You said, "When I see the elders, unless I am told that they have been separated from the church they represent, I assume the church is there. Does this make sense?" The answer is no. In Revelation 5:8-10 the four creatures and twenty four elders are singing about another group ... notice the words them and they. In Revelation 11:15-18 they do not seem to include themselves. Searcher |
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4 | Are the 24 elders, the church,? | Matt 24:30 | Aixen7z4 | 75263 | ||
I would guess that you also have trouble with Pauls's statement in 2 Corinthians 12: "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago ... was caught up to the third heaven". Paul was talking about himself. Does that make sense? | ||||||
5 | Are the 24 elders, the church,? | Matt 24:30 | Searcher56 | 75270 | ||
Who said the man was Paul? Read on ... "On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses" (2 Cor 12:5). Sounds like it was not Paul. Back to the 24 elders ... They are separate from those who came out of the tribulation (Rev 7:11-17). In 19:1-3 we see the great multitude (7:9), then the 24 (vs 4). The 24 elders are not the church, nor a representative of the church. |
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6 | Are the 24 elders, the church,? | Matt 24:30 | Aixen7z4 | 75283 | ||
The Scripture which comes to mind is from Isaiah 28. I am not sure if it will help or make the matter more complicated, but it applies in many ways. "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". God has chosen to give us information through gradual revelation, and the facts on any one topic are scattered throughout Scripture. In the end it is also through experience that he teaches us. The knowledge we gain is also not an end in itself but for the purpose of obedience. Take the broader view instead of looking so closely and you will see that the person Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 12 was himself. Likewise, the people the elders were talking about in Revelation 7 and 19 included themselves. Back on the first subject. The overall teaching of Scripture is that whereae God's justice requires his wrath, it is his desire is to save us from wrath. According to 1 Thessalonians 5, we are not appointed to wrath. According to Romans 8 there is no condemnation for us because we are in Christ. As in Jeremiah 30, some Jews are headed for a terrible time, a time of "Jacob's Trouble". Why? Because, as in Luke 19, they did not know the time of their visitation. Because they refused to believe, blindness was imparted to them, as in John 12 and 2 Corinthians 4. This blindness will not be lifted until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. This we learn from Romans 11. The times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled at the time of the Rapture. For those who remain there will remain only a fearful looking for of judgment, as we learn in Hebrews. Until that time they have been the ones to whom the evangelists have turned, as a group. See Acts 13. After the Gentiles have had their turn, the Jews will be given a second chance. They will look on the one they pierced and some of them will believe on him. But by that time they will be going through great Tribulation. 144,000 will be saved. We know they will be all Jews because there will be 12,000 from each of the tribes. But they will have gone through great distress. Why does God want us to know all of this? First of all, we should be motivated to flee from the wrath to come ourselves. Then, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. No one should be planning to go through the Great Tribulation. It will be a terrible time comparable only to hell itself. Those who are saved will escape both. During the Great Tribulation the church will be in heaven. You see the head pictured in Revelation 4. The body is there too. Others, Jews, will later be saved out of the Great tribulation. All who are saved will have escaped hell. These are the facts as I see them. The information about the nature of perception really should not have been necessary. Let's just say it is important to take the broader view. When we do, the little details will fit into place. Finally, think again. The purpose for God's revelation is that we might obey him. Knowing whatever we know about the tribulation, let us seek to escape it and to encourage others to flee to our Lord Jesus Christ. |
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