Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Beja | 221291 | ||
Dear Bruno, We live in a time where the search for truth is considered most noble, but to have dared to suggest you've found it is the ultimate heresy. I refer to your search as "youthful questioning" because it is quite normal. However, viewed from after the fact, once one has made up their mind with certainty regarding where that truth is located, can you not see how a person would look back at the former wanderings as a more youthful point in their life? I do not look to condemn you for your search, however, understand that the point of the search is to eventually make a stand. Do not be one forever searching and never finding. Also, keep in mind that when you joined these forums the terms of use laid out "sola scriptura" as something you agreed to. This means that every person on these forums has agreed that scripture and scripture alone is the final arbiter of what is true. A person might not personally embrace that, but these forums are not the place to debate it. Let us respect our gracious host in that. Let me tell you why I think my view is not only opposed to your three theories, but fundamentally so. The essence of your anterior and simultaneous views, is that morality is not dependant on God or who He is. It is in someway seperate from Him. I say that morality flows directly from who God is. The essence of your posterior view is that God actually decides between various options and picks one to be right or wrong. What I'm saying is that it flows unavoidably from who God is and could not have been different. Hence, each of your views is saying something radically different from what I'm saying. Not because they are anterior, posterior, or simultaneous, but because of WHY each view is suggesting they are. Finally let me tell you that anybody who is a true Christian is so because God has so pursuaded them. 2 Cor 4:1-6 tells us quite plainly that any who has seen the truth has done so because God has opened their eyes to it. This is something that I would urge any person to seek from God in earnest prayer. Also, if you can remember to, please put future responses to threads marked as a "note." This leaves the question section open for true questions. Any time you respond to me I'm e-mailed about that response so no need to worry over me missing it. In Christ, Beja |
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2 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Bruno Dosca | 221306 | ||
Dear Beja, thanks for your post. I am sorry to have ticked the question check box, I didn't know the rule of using the note check box for continuing the conversation. I apologize. Regarding the "three options" now I see what you meant. It was my mistake to go too fast saying that the option "posterior" had a meaning of "caprice". I didn't set the "degrees of freedom" properly for other information coming from out the equation. In this case this kind of "necessity" for the criteria to be in the way it is (I wont ask you how do you know that). I the three options (anterior, posterior or simultaneous) this "flowing from God" that you say means that is posterior (with nothing negative to say about and in the sense you have said in your previous post). I am really surprised by you saying that I have suggested to have found the Truth. Where in my message did I say this? If you read my previous post you will see the verb "to seek" which according to Webster dictionary means "to go in search of". I can not say it more clearly. By the way, if one day I think to have found the Truth I will try to let other people make their own mind about it and my reasoning, since I don't see why that would be the "ultimate heresy". Odd enough you said this, when you are proclaiming not to have the slightest doubt about the truth of the Bible (you didn't buy into the 99.99 per cent certainty I mentioned). I remember once I heard somebody saying "The Bible is the Truth because it says so in the Bible". I noticed that you have left unanswered my last question about the government and the fact that at least in Western world we are no longer obeying the Biblical justice. Now I think this is important as you put so much emphasis in the truth of the Scripture. I agree that the point (I would say goal) of searching is to eventually make a stand. But I accept that it is possible to never reach this goal and I must say that I am not 100 per cent certain of ANYTHING. But sort of "90 per cent certain" of many things. And I am worried and even afraid of people who doesn't accept even the 99.99 certainty and claim to have the 100 per cent. Bruno. |
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3 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Beja | 221323 | ||
Bruno, You missunderstood my last post, sir. I was not in any way suggesting that you claimed to have found truth. I'm not sure what you are wanting to know with regard to "biblical justice" thing. In Christ, Beja |
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4 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Bruno Dosca | 221334 | ||
Beja, It is possible that I am misunderstanding things because of my still poor knowledge of the English language. I understood that you said I was claiming to have found the truth from your statement "to have dared to suggest you've found it is the ultimate heresy" (sic). If you were meaning a different thing I withdraw my protest. Regarding the government thing it all started as a minor part of our conversation but as you put so much emphasis in the truth of the Bible I am interested to see how you reconcile the whole thing. Here I summarize the thing and clarify what I am asking: 1- You put as an example the reasons to obey government: Romans 13:1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." 2- Then I said this was clearly not true and put an easy counterexample: The government from Iran. If you were living in Iran, would you obey the ayatollah? 3- Then you said: "I would not suggest that we are to obey governments in an occasion when they command us contrary to scripture." It is here where I find the contradiction with Romans 13:1. Did you meant that Romans 13:1 only applies when the government agrees with scripture? I can accept this hierarchy rank of guidelines. So to clarify I said a new example: 4- Then I did put a new example to let you clarify your position to me. I said: "we no longer stone to death young people for disobeying their parents or for other reasons. Which is obviously a progress in our understanding of justice from the bronze age, the time when the OT was written." So I repeat that our Western world governments are disobeying the Biblical justice. But still you are submitted to the government (unless you are campaigning for the stoning of sinners and I am not aware of this). Hope this is clear enough. Bruno. |
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5 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Beja | 221335 | ||
Bruno, Yes, I'm sorry you missunderstood me. When I said that we live in a world in which, "It is noble to seek the truth, but the ultimate heresy to claim you've found it." I was not saying that you have claimed to found it but rather expressing what I considered the attitude of the world towards what we are discussing. Concerning governments. First, I do not think that the commands to Israel regarding how their judicial process were to work were mandates to every government that ever lives. Second, how would it logically follow that Western governments not obeying scripture proves scripture false? And third, I will not continue to debate the inerrency of scripture on these forums. In any other place I would gladly defend them, but doing so here I feel violates the terms of agreement you and I both signed upon joining this forum. The authority of scriptures is the "given" of these forums and I ask you in respect to our hosts to discontinue this aspect of our discussion. In Christ, Beja |
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6 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Bruno Dosca | 221355 | ||
Hello Beja, Now I understand what you meant by the "ultimate heresy" thing. Sorry to have misunderstood you. About the government: You ask: "How would it logically follow that Western governments not obeying scripture proves scripture false?" It simply doesn't follow. I agree with you. What I was pointing to was your personal behaviour not being against a government that was not applying the Biblical justice. But now I see you think the Biblical justice was meant to be applied to Israel and not as a general law for other cases. I am not sure if this the orthodox view since I have heard very different interpretations. But as you think this is the correct view then I see why the whole thing is reasonable and logical in your mind. Doing an exercise of the imagination, can you imagine yourself stoning to death somebody who has, lets say disobeyed his/her parents, if you were born in Israel during the bronze age? I think it is not difficult to understand why I am so worried about this things. Regarding the discussion about the truth or falsehood of the Bible I understand your reasons for not wanting to continue it and I accept it. Nevertheless I was invited by Mr. Doc to put my questions about different passages of the Bible that I think contain factual mistakes and/or contradictions. I will put them in a way that wont offend anybody, I wont present them as false and I will accept that the responses will take the scriptures as true. I will only ask if there is somebody who wants to explain it. Bruno. |
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7 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Beja | 221356 | ||
Bruno, One thing where I'm not sure you are understanding me is regarding when we are to disobey. We do not disobey a government because the government has done something wrong. We are to obey even wicked governments up until they actually tell us to disobey God. At which point we obey God rather than men (acts 5:29.) Beyond that one command, we go back to obeying our governments. Second, are you suggesting that because I can or can not picture myself stoning a man that scripture is false based on that? Of course you would not suggest that. Sir, see that you are not at all appealing to reason but rather your strategy is to tell me that based on how I feel about what the old testament says, I am to judge it right or false. You are not using logic, but trying to horrify me by what scripture says. What is the "factual mistake and/or contradiction" here? My feelings do not trump the word of God! And with all due respect, neither do yours. I would also put forward, if I recall this old testament command correctly, you are misrepresenting scripture at this point. It is not as if somebody disobeyed their parents once and therefore were drug off to be stoned. If I recall correctly, this was a recourse for parents whose child was continually rebellious. But perhaps I am remembering the text incorrectly. In Christ, Bruno |
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8 | questioning | Gen 6:6 | Bruno Dosca | 221358 | ||
Beja, The first paragraph of your last post clarifies a lot your views to me, thank you. But I have a doubt: In the process of obeying a wicked government should we, according to your views, do wicked things (with the exception of disobeying God) if the government commands so? Or do you think that by doing wicked things we always would be in itself disobeying God? To your question "are you suggesting that because I can or can not picture myself stoning a man that scripture is false based on that?" I answer negatively, of course. That would be, at least, logically incorrect. I just wanted to know to which extent your certainty about the truth of the Bible would lead you. Because, although you have implicitly suggested the answer to that, you haven't said so explicitly. I should notice here that, with the exception of my reference to the progress of our understanding of justice, I never mentioned any negative thing against the stoning tradition, and surely never applied any negative adjective to it. You are the one who brings the "horrify" word here. Why is it so if the stonings were just applied after God commanding it (equivalent to "right" from your point of view)? And even more important in order to find the exit in this labyrinth, from where do you think our emotions come and what are they for? Bruno. PS: You are right about the passage in the OT. Apart from disobeying parents there is also rebellion. Sorry for my bad memory. Therefore I change my example to a case equal to the one described in the OT. Bruno. |
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