Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Joseph's iron fist | Gen 47:19 | JCrichton | 135681 | ||
Hi, JRM! I think that you are missing two points: Point 1: Joseph did not represent Israel (Jacob had not come to Egypt with his family); Joseph represented the Egyptian king (Faraoh) and all his interests... the people subjected to the rule had to grow most of the produce for storage... had there not been a system in place, how many people would have starved to death due to the greed of their compatriots? Have you notice in America how many companies are ransacked by their CEO's and accomplices? Have you noticed how much effort is placed on restitution? That sweet lady, to some not so sweet, Martha Stewart (hope I spelled it correctly) moved some of her own money and government and media has moved to make an example of her (she must have forgotten her place)... yet the billions of dollars siphoned into Lala Land by the male execs, do not even require their names and faces to be plastered all over the media... now, turn the tides over to Joseph's Egypt and allow the power hoarders the ability to control the production of grains... mass starvation for the populous! Point 2: It was God who placed Joseph in such a position and it was God who enabled him to: a) decipher the dreams, b) have the abilities necessary to manage the Egypcian kingdom. God Bless! Angel |
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2 | Joseph's iron fist | Gen 47:19 | Just Read Mark | 135794 | ||
Hi Angel. I certainly understand that Joseph was working for Pharoah, not Jacob. The story is clear about how God gave him the ability to interpret dreams, and that his position of authority was God's doing ---- this is one of the clearest examples of a negative thing (being sold by his brothers) being used by God for good. My question was about what he did AFTER that. If you paid significant taxes for 7 years (like the Egyptians did, paying grain into Pharoah's coffers) --- wouldn't you expect to get the services when you needed them? I know I'm being anachronistic here, for effect. Basically, Joseph was being shrewd to the point of being tyranical. Caring for the hungry is a value embodied in Old Testament and New ---- Joseph fed the people, but took their entire wealth, land, and freedom in the process. We can't really say this is Pharoah's fault, for Pharoah gave Joseph the authority to run the program. The Bible is honest about the characters -- we see even the most heroic characters' severe faults. Might you agree that this is Joseph's moment of weakness? |
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3 | Joseph's iron fist | Gen 47:19 | JCrichton | 135815 | ||
Hi, JRM! I see your point... but I refer to Scripture (Genesis 47:19), it was the people themselves who bargained for their lives as they had nothing else to barter with... Now, on Joseph's defense: a) Pharoah maintained final authority on Joseph's program (Genesis 47:22), and b) Joseph's negotiation provided for both the Pharoah and for the people as he only taxed them one fifth of their production (Genesis 47:24)... ultimately both the Pharoah and the people benefited from the arrangement... perhaps 20 percent is a high tax on people but death is always a definite scourge on longevity! The Bible closes with the statement that that law has been in effect since then (Genesis 47:26); yet it does not expand on any additional levies or the Egyptians being able to buy back their lands or themselves from the Pharoah... One final point... since Jacob's people had not yet been enslaved by the Egyptians, there doesn't seem to be any ulterior motives for Joseph's illwill towards the people of Egypt... I still see his actions as a necessity to keep the people and the land safe from the devastation of the seven years of famine... I am not sure about the origins of the system of taxation here in America... but I understand that the original introduction was meant as a temporary measure to fund the war efforts... it must have worked well past everyone's expectations... I suspect that much of what happened with us happened with the Egyptians! ...so, did Joseph suffer a lapse of judgment and exploited the people or was his program too successful for the Pharaoh to allow it to lapse into oblivion?... I think that the latter is closer to what truly transpired during Joseph's command! God Bless! Angel |
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4 | Joseph's iron fist | Gen 47:19 | Just Read Mark | 135817 | ||
I agree that 20 percent is a very fair taxation rate. I am a Canadian so, hey, I acknowledge govenments can have a constructive role. In my first post, I mentioned that that might be a societal benefit worth the suffering they went through. The people were offering their freedom because they had already paid EVERYTHING they had. Can you imagine? Property, livestock, everything. Joseph could have said, "no, there's another way." I suggest that your desire to commend Joseph is preventing you from reading the harshness of the text.... There are more options than "the people starve or they forfeit all they own to the Empire." What about "the people receive the food they grew at an affordable rate, so that all Egyptians will benefit" ? If you were Joseph, and you saw people starving and bankrupt, wouldn't that idea occur to you? |
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5 | Joseph's iron fist | Gen 47:19 | JCrichton | 135821 | ||
Hi, JRM! Again, I understand your position... and though I do have an affinity for Joseph (being the envy of his brothers, being at the threshold of death, sold as a slave, wrongly imprisoned... and keeping his Faith through all!), my views differ because I tend to think in terms of Joseph's immediate historical era: the world was a much harsher place! People in power saw even their own offspring as a threat and they disposed of them readily! Sacrificing a person, a family or a township was nothing short of "good business sense" when conditions dictated so (not that such atrocities do not happen in our times--I hear about them happining much too often now-a-days!)... Could Joseph have engineered a different plan? Anything is possible! Would it have had benefited as much or would the Egyptian people have had to die when foreigners could outbid their purse? Would foreigners be as eager to send Pharoah a fith of their products in exchange for seeds? Would Egypt, as a nation, survive seven years of famine once people lost all hope after experiencing the first couple of years of famine? Could people exercise sound judgment during the famine years if they were provided for by the Pharoah's generosity? It is not just the unknowns that hinders our judgment, but also the fact that today's values did not exist back then... If the US (Canada) government made it voluntary, how many people do you think would send their contributions to the IRS, even those who claim to be "Christians?" How long would a nation last without the capital to bankroll an empire?... Remember reading Scripture that speak on kings purchasing their nation's freedom and autonomy or buying armies to fight for them? If Egypt's economy had lapsed, how long would they have survived the famine's devastation coupled with military assaults from the neighboring powers? God Bless! Angel |
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