Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Rape, Circumcission, Slaughter. | Gen 34:31 | Just Read Mark | 135054 | ||
Thanks for your thoughtful answer, especially pointing out connections beyond the chapter at hand. I, too, have been thinking about God's instruction not to intermarry (when the "people of God" still had a genetic component). In no way did I intend to justify rape. It's just that, in a situation where women seem to have been viewed as property, I wondered what was meant by the term. Was the violation against Dinah --- or did Dinah welcome the relationship and the "violence" was against Joseph's (and the brother's) property rights? I agree that men often do abusive things and then talk sweetly after the fact. I am a little surprised about how comfortable you feel about the deceitful agreement re. circumcission. It seems to me like offering someone communion bread, but poisoning it first. They are taking an act that defines the people of God, and using it to slaughter their enemy. Thanks again. JRM. |
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2 | Rape, Circumcission, Slaughter. | Gen 34:31 | JCrichton | 135076 | ||
"or did Dinah welcome the relationship and the "violence" was against Joseph's (and the brother's) property rights?" Hi, JRM! To read that Dinah was just being promiscuous and that the males felt violated because their property was taking without some form of agreement or payment, says very little for Jacob and his children! It is also contradicting the actions taken by Dinah's brothers... it would have been advantageous for them to have Dinah marry the prince--just imagine how much claut they would have with all the people that dealt with Shechem in the neighboring territories... instead, they have made a profound statement, one that places them in peril, as all the associates of the people they killed would, in the least, see Jacob and his family as adversaries! I ask you to rethink your position and include the fact that Jacob was a servant of Yahweh and he and his family had a different set of standards (spiritual and moral) than those of Canaan and its neigboring terretories... " am a little surprised about how comfortable you feel about the deceitful agreement re. circumcission. It seems to me like offering someone communion bread, but poisoning it first." Yet, I am sure that you were not as surprised as I was when I read your suggestion about taking the money and marrying Dinah to her rapist! This is akin to discovering that someone removed a spare organ from your body and then offered you some cash for your troubles! It seems that you exact a greater obligation on Jacob than you do on the pagans! Though I am not truly surprised as we witness this same treatment all over the world: those who have power are beyond any accountability--onless an example is required. The violation, though it seems that you refuse to accept the fact that it took place, was both a physical (Dinah and her family) and a spiritual (Israel, the people of God) violation!: 1) Dinah's violation lead to Simeon's and Levi's deceitful retaliation on Shechem and his people (Geneisis 34:1-31) Simeon's and Levi's violence lead to Jacob's rejection of Simeon and Levi at his death bed (Genesis 49:5-7); 3) The sons of Levi, as Peter in John 21:15-18, were separated by Yahweh and redeemed from their father's violence (Exodus 32:26-28); 4) Jacob's rejection of Levi lead to the Tribe of Levi being dispersed amongst Insrael while their obedience to God's Command distinguished them for the service of the priestly tribe (Numbers 1:47-54; 3:12-13). If you find fault at Simeon's, Levi's and Jacob's actions... is it because you truly do not find fault with Shechem and his people or is it because you do not understand God's Way? The first Covenant involved temporal values (sinners were iradicated by means of a physical death); Israel (inclusive of Jacob and his children) lived under such Covenant! God Bless! Angel |
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3 | Rape, Circumcission, Slaughter. | Gen 34:31 | Just Read Mark | 135084 | ||
Perhaps Dinah was raped. Horrible. How dare Shechem come to buy her, after imposing violence on her. Soft words are not enough. Still, his willingness to be circumcised is moving (I have one friend who experienced that as an adult... it wasn't pleasant, even with todays medicine. Can you imagine...?) You suggested that "It seems that you exact a greater obligation on Jacob than you do on the pagans!" This is true. As does our Maker. The more we know, the more accountable we are, no? We are to share the grace we have received. Peace. PS -- I like the connection between Levi's scattered curse/blessing and the eventual priestly role of the tribe of Levi, scattered among the other tribes. Thanks for pointing that out. What an amazing book. |
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4 | Rape, Circumcission, Slaughter. | Gen 34:31 | JCrichton | 135143 | ||
"This is true. As does our Maker." Hi, JRM! True, Jesus commands that we excercise greater justice than that of the Pharisees and Sadducees (Matthew 5:20), as it is true throughout the Bible... yet, when speaking of the Old Covenant times there was a different economy, one that until Jesus' incarnation relied on physical rather than spiritual values... Simeon and Levi, though perhaps excessive, were taking vengeance upon those who insulted both their sister and, by extension, their God! I cannot offer you more proof than the very Scripture where Yahweh orders Jacob to flee the area and He keeps the Canaanites and others from harming him and his family as they travel out of the immediate geographical area to Bethel (Genesis 35:1-15)... neither can I convince you that Dinah was rape... I can only warn you to curb such liberal interpretation of Scripture as they can, more times than not, lead you away from the Truth (Christ). This, said, please understand that I am not limiting God's ability and desire to forgive us our transgressions--aside from rejecting Him there is no sin not forgiven to man (Matthew 21:31-32; Isaiah 1:18-20; Ezekiel 18:30-32). God Bless! Angel |
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5 | Rape, Circumcission, Slaughter. | Gen 34:31 | Just Read Mark | 135156 | ||
Angel, I don't think my queries were particularly "liberal." Rather, I think it is important to look at characters' motivations in the text, and try to understand what is being described. The Bible often uses few words to describe an event, leaving many questions. The Old Testament, in particular, is full of ethically complicated situations ---- it is more like history than parables: the people are messed up (as we are) and aren't always good moral examples. There is not always a gloss on the story, where we are told "this was good" or "this was bad." We are left to wrestle it through. As for the differences between Old Testament and New -- perhaps it is even more complicated than that. Can you imagine being Jacob, and only having the stories of the beginning of Genesis to work with? No liberation from Egypt to shape your understanding of God's liberty... No Ten commandments to shape your understanding of God's righteousness... With each covenant, (Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David...) the picture of God becomes a little clearer. As Joseph says, "Do not interpretations belong to God?" (Genesis 40:8). |
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6 | Rape, Circumcission, Slaughter. | Gen 34:31 | JCrichton | 135206 | ||
Hi, JRM! I termed your interpretation liberal because Scripture speaks of Dinah being raped, yet you insist on portraying the incident as a "perhaps she was raped" type of event... I also think that you are viewing the Old Testament in light of Christian principles and revelations--true God does not change; yet, during the Old Testament times a physical punishment was exacted for transgressions against God; while in the New Testament, it is a spiritual retribution that is exacted for the transgressions of Christians. "Can you imagine being Jacob, and only having the stories of the beginning of Genesis to work with?" Can you imagine being Jacob, and having God stand right next to you as He Commands you to do one thing or another? Can you imagine the intimacy of wrestling with God? God's Plan is revealed according to His timetable... those who were taught in the Old Covenant were just as fortunate as those who are taught under the New Covenant... the difference is that we are in the end of times (spiritual economy) rather than the beginning (physical economy); we are called to believe and trust God based on what others experienced or were commanded to write down! "the picture of God becomes a little clearer." Yet, we fall short of understanding this advantage... mostly because we seek to know not what God has expressly written for us but that which we think we might find if we search for a deeper meaning than what God has offered: "The Bible often uses few words to describe an event, leaving many questions" This is part of God's design... we are meant to rely on Him not to become experts of what He mean to say or do, but to become experts on listening and obeying His Word! If we search Scripture for deeper understanding of God, that is a profitable and honorable commission... yet, if by searching for deeper meaning and understanding we manipulate Scripture or its interpretation, then we are not serving God nor ourselves... rather, we might even be derailing those who are babes in the Faith! We can take any literary work or any artistic rendering and we can analyze it to death, offering as wild interpretations as we desire... no harm, no foul! But if we employ that same technique to Scripture... at best, we are doubting God's Word; at worst, we are contradicting God's Word! For this very reason I do not indulge in the "what if" speculations... at best, they confound the reader/listener; at worst they confound even the author/writer. "The Old Testament, in particular, is full of ethically complicated situations" Again... this is all relative... in America we have hundreds of laws that dictate what, where, or when citizenry is able to do or not do... child labor laws are a fantastic example... as moral and ethical as they are today, in the not too far past children were a little more than an opportunity being exploited by both the parents and society--this is still true in certain parts of the world... Since God dealt differently with the people of the Old Covenant than He deals with the people of the New Covenant, how can anyone compare ethical or spiritual values? It would be akin to wanting to have hundreds of wives because David and Salomon did! God Bless! Angel |
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