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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | got_ truth? | 172604 | ||
At Exodus 12:40, 41, Moses records that “the dwelling of the sons of Israel, who had dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.” From the above wording, it is apparent that not all this “dwelling” was in Egypt. This time period begins with Abraham’s crossing of the Euphrates on his way to Canaan, at which time God’s covenant with Abraham went into effect. The first 215 years of this “dwelling” was in Canaan, and then an equal period was spent in Egypt, until Israel became completely independent of all Egyptian control and dependency, in 1513 B.C.E. A footnote on Exodus 12:40 shows that the Greek Septuagint, which is based on a Hebrew text older than the Masoretic, adds, after the word “Egypt,” the words “and in the land of Canaan.” The Samaritan Pentateuch does similarly. Galatians 3:17, which also mentions the 430 years, confirms that this period started with the validating of the Abrahamic covenant, at the time that Abraham crossed the Euphrates on his way to Canaan. This was therefore in 1943 B.C.E., when Abraham was 75 years old.—Gen. 12:4. | ||||||
2 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | Jim Estes | 176073 | ||
Hi Got Truth?, I explain in the tread of this discussion why I believe the 430 years is from the offering of Isaac by Abraham and the 400 years is from the birth of Jacob. If the 430 years is from Abraham crossing the Euphrates at age 75, then what is the 400 years? Thanks, Jim Estes |
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3 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | Bruce Killian | 176171 | ||
I believe the 430 years refer to the period from the return of Jacob to Israel from Padam Aram, because 1) In the LXX and the Samaritan Penteuch in Ex 12:40-41 refers to the period of time in Egypt and Canaan, 2) the Massoretic Text and the LXX have the period refering only to the sons of Israel. 3) It is not until Jacob returns that there are sons of Israel in Canaan. Jacob and his sons were in Canaan for 30 years before going to Egypt. 4) The period in Egypt was 400 years, it could not be shorter because 1 Chronicles 7:20-27 records each of Ephraim's descendants generations, if the period was 215 years each father would father his son at age 12. See www.scripturescholar.com and then Jubilee Timetable for more detail. | ||||||
4 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | HOTH | 176192 | ||
Hi Bruce, Thank you for your comments. I have responded to each of your remarks below. I have enjoyed this opportunity for the additional study. “1) In the LXX and the Samaritan Penteuch in Ex 12:40-41 refers to the period of time in Egypt and Canaan” We agree on this. However, it is also important to note that Genesis 15:13 is also making reference to Canaan and Egypt. Where it says “strangers dwelling as temporary residents” it is referring to Canaan, not Egypt. See Exodus 6:4 . This phrase is found often and is identified with Canaan. The Hebrews were not strangers in Egypt, but invited residents of the Pharaoh himself and brought to Egypt on Pharaoh’s wagons. “2) the Massoretic Text and the LXX have the period referring only to the sons of Israel.” Galatians 3:16-17 identifies the 430 year time frame. It began with the covenant made with Abraham concerning the coming Messiah. This can be found at Genesis 22:18, the Passover of Isaac for the ram, exactly 430 years before the Passover in Egypt. Genesis 12:41. Shortly after the Passover in Egypt, the law was given in the Ten Commandments. Thus, 430 years from the covenant to the law being given. “3) It is not until Jacob returns that there are sons of Israel in Canaan. Jacob and his sons were in Canaan for 30 years before going to Egypt.” There are numerous reasons why Jacob and his sons were in Canaan for a much longer period than 30 years. The best evidence of more than 30 years is the listing of the descendants of Jacob, who arrived with him in Egypt. Genesis 46:8-27. For instance, Benjamin was born after his parents came into Canaan. Yet when Benjamin arrived in Egypt he had 10 sons. Judah, after Joseph was sold into slavery, married and raised three sons to adults. After which, he had his twin sons Perez and Zerah. When Perez arrived in Egypt he had two sons of his own. These events could not have been accomplished in only 30 years. “4) The period in Egypt was 400 years, it could not be shorter because 1 Chronicles 7:20-27 records each of Ephraim's descendants generations, if the period was 215 years each father would father his son at age 12.” The 215 years is calculated by those who believe that the 430 years began with the call of Abraham, when he was 75 years old. (This does not explain the meaning of the 400 years.) As stated before, I believe the 430 years was from the Passover of Isaac and the 400 years from the birth of Jacob. Jacob was 130 years old when he arrived in Egypt and therefore the stay in Egypt was 270 years, not 215 years. Ephraim was the 2nd son of Joseph born during the abundant years. This would make him about 3-7 years old when the other Hebrews arrived. Let’s say Ephraim was 5 years old and in the 15th and 16th years (of the 270 years) he became the father of Ezer and Elead. They grew up and in the 36th year they were slain. In the 37th year Beriah was born. When Beriah was 23 (in the 60nd year) he became the father of Rephah. When Rephah was 23 (in the 83th year) he became the father of Resheph. When Resheph was 23(in the 106th year) he became the father of Telah. When Telah was 23 ( in the 129th year) he became the father of Tahah. When Tahah was 23 ( in the 152 year) he became the father of Ladan. When Ladan was 23 (in the 175th year) he became the father of Ammihud. When Ammihud was 23 (in the 198th year) he became the father of Elishama. When Elishama was 23 (in the 221st year) he became the father of Nun. When Nun was 23 (in the 244th year) he became the father of Joshua. And when Joshua was 26 (in the 270th year of the Hebrews being in Egypt, he became a “young” aid to Moses.) Exodus 33:11. Of course the above are all estimates, but it clearly indicates that it was very possible to have this number of generations during the 270 years. Hope this is helpful in your studies. Yours in Christ, Jim Estes |
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5 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | Bruce Killian | 176734 | ||
2) There are NO sons of Israel until after Abraham's death the time period cannot extend back to Abraham, otherwise the Bible would have said Son's of Abraham. 3) Even if Jacob and sons were in Canaan longer than 30 years, it can't be more than 39 - 6 or 33 years that is Joseph's maximum possible age when the Jacob came to Egypt minus the Joseph's minimum age when entering Canaan, so 33 years max possible years there were sons of Israel in Canaan. 4) Ezer and Elead came after there were seven generations of Ephraimites, this could not be less that 120 years verses your 15 years. In acts 13:17-20 Refers to the period of about 450 years in Egypt up until Israel was fully settled in Israel. 400 years in Egypt plus 49 years wandering, conquest, and settling is 449 about 450 years Paul mentions. You are also looking this if is possible. I am interested in actual. The archaeology of Egypt's Old Kingdom from the third until the end of the sixth dynasty is almost exactly 400 years. If is also of interest that the Jubilee years also link up when the period in Egypt is 400 years. 80 years before the Exodus when Moses was born Israel was already so numerous that Egypt's Pharaoh was concerned. Considering that many of Jacob's grandchildren or great grandchildren were very young when they entered Egypt, the level of multiplication would have required far more than 8 children per generation. |
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6 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | Jim Estes | 176818 | ||
Hi Bruce, In your previous note you stated: “2) the Massoretic Text and the LXX have the period referring only to the sons of Israel.” Can you give the exact scripture quotes in the Massoretic Text and the LXX that you are referring to so I can compare them? Otherwise, it is hard to understand exactly what you mean. Thank you in advance. You stated: “3) Even if Jacob and sons were in Canaan longer than 30 years, it can't be more than 39 - 6 or 33 years . . .” That is an excellent point! IF Joseph was 39 when the Hebrews arrived in Egypt and Joseph was 6 when they left Padan-Aram, then they would have been in Canaan no longer than 33 years. However, I would like to see the scripture quotes before I respond to this. You stated: “4) Ezer and Elead came after there were seven generations of Ephraimites, this could not be less that 120 years verses your 15 years.” 1 Chronicles 7:22 says that Ephraim was their father and that he mourned many days. Ezer and Elead were the sons of Ephraim, not Shuthelah. They were not born after 7 generations or Ephraim could not have mourned for them. You stated: “In acts 13:17-20 Refers to the period of about 450 years in Egypt up until Israel was fully settled in Israel. 400 years in Egypt plus 49 years wandering, conquest, and settling is 449 about 450 years Paul mentions.” This period of time began when “The God of this people Israel selected our forefathers. . .” I’m not sure how this time of 450 years plays out. However, Paul is very clear in Galatians 3:16-17. The 430 years started with the covenant with Abraham that in “your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” This is recorded in Genesis 22:17. The 430 years ended with the giving of the law, the Ten Commandments, shortly after the Exodus from Egypt, which took place 430 years to the very day. The Passover of Isaac for the Ram to the Passover of the firstborn of Israel for the Lamb was exactly 430 years. How could the Israelites have been in Egypt for 400 years when the 430 years began even before the birth of Jacob-Israel? Also, as you noted, Moses was 80 years old when he led the Exodus. Moses was the son of Amram, who lived to be 137 years old (Genesis 6:20). Amram was the son of Kohath, who lived to be 133 years old (Genesis 6:18). Kohath was living when the Hebrews came into Egypt (Genesis 46:11). So, even if Kohath was an infant when he arrived in Egypt and Amram was born in the last year of Kohath’s life and Moses was born in the last year of Amram’s life, you cannot get to 400 years of the Israelites being in Egypt. 133 plus 137 plus 80 equals 350 years max. You have made excellent points, but all the scriptures cited must be in harmony. If they are not in harmony, then we are failing to give them the correct interpretation. If the Israelites were in Egypt for 400 years, then how can the above scriptures be brought into harmony? Yours in Christ, Jim Estes |
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7 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | Bruce Killian | 176923 | ||
There are three independent witnesses Massoretic Text (MT), Septuagint (LXX) and Samaritan Pentateuch (SP) to the original text of this passage: I require at least two witnesses agree, before I trust any of these. Deut 19:15 .... A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Matt 18:16 ... so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' The LXX and SP mention "and the land of Canaan" so I accept that. Only the Sp mentions “and their fathers” so I reject that portion. All mentions sons of (or children) of Israel so that appears established. MT Ex 12:40-41 Now the length of time the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 At the end of the four hundred and thirty years, to the very day, all Yahweh's divisions left Egypt. LXX Ex 12:40-41 And the sojourning of the sons of Israel, which they sojourned in the land of Egypt and the land of Canaan was four hundred and thirty years 41 And it came to pass after the four hundred and thirty years, all the forces of the Lord came forth out of the land of Egypt by night. I don't have a copy of the Sp was hard to find on the www and I did not find verse 41. SP Ex. 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel and of their fathers which they had dwelt in the land of Canaan and in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years" Scripture verses on the length of time the sons of Israel were in Canaan before going to Egypt. Gen 29:20 So Jacob served seven years to get Rachel, but they seemed like only a few days to him because of his love for her. Gen 29:27 Finish this daughter's bridal week; then we will give you the younger one also, in return for another seven years of work." Gen 29:30 Jacob lay with Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah. And he worked for Laban another seven years. Gen 30:25 After Rachel gave birth to Joseph, Jacob said to Laban, "Send me on my way so I can go back to my own homeland. Gen 30:26 Give me my wives and children, for whom I have served you, and I will be on my way. You know how much work I've done for you." Gen 30:27 But Laban said to him, "If I have found favor in your eyes, please stay. I have learned by divination that the LORD has blessed me because of you." Gen 30:28 He added, "Name your wages, and I will pay them." Gen 31:41 It was like this for the twenty years I was in your household. I worked for you fourteen years for your two daughters and six years for your flocks, and you changed my wages ten times. Joseph was born near the end of the second seven years Jacob served for his wives. At least six years remain before Jacob and sons returned to Canaan. Gen 37:2 This is the account of Jacob. Joseph, a young man of seventeen, was tending the flocks with his brothers, the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives, and he brought their father a bad report about them. Gen 41:46 Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. ... Jacob was 30 when he came into Pharaoh's service, this was also during the first year of plenty. Gen 41:26 The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good heads of grain are seven years; ... Gen 41:27 The seven lean, ugly cows that came up afterward are seven years, and so are the seven worthless heads of grain scorched by the east wind: They are seven years of famine. GEN 41:29 Seven years of great abundance are coming throughout the land of Egypt, GEN 41:30 But seven years of famine will follow them. .... GEN 45:6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will not be plowing and reaping. I was some time near the end of the second years of famine or the beginning of the third year of famine. That is when Joseph is 38 or 39. Joseph's maximum age at the time Jacob and sons enters Egypt. Jacob's minimum age upon returning from Haran is 6 years. 30 plus 7 plus 2 minus 6 years is 33 years. In http://www.scripturescholar.com/JubileeTimetable.htm I show have Ephraim could still be alive to mourn his children after seven generations. 23 times 7 is 161; his grandfather Isaac lived to be 180 years old. The 430 years of Gal 3:16-17 dates from promises made to Abraham and his “seed”, Jacob a seed of Abraham received a number of promises, One as he was returning from Haran, I believe the promise here refers to the one when have returned from Haran, because it is at that point that he is named Israel Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." That is the first time we have person named Israel and the first time there are sons of Israel In Canaan. I made a very exciting astronomical chronological discovery see http://www.scripturescholar.com/LambofGod.htm. grace and peace, Bruce |
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8 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | Jim Estes | 177140 | ||
Hi Bruce, Thank you for a very thoughtful response and my apology for taking so long to answer back. You are correct that Ephraim could have been alive to mourn 7th generation grandchildren. His great-grandfather Isaac did live to 180 years. However, life spans were declining after the flood. Jacob lived to about 147 years and Joseph to 110 years. While possible that Ephraim lived to be 160, it is very doubtful. Plus, this still does not alter the fact that the scripture states that Ephraim was their father. Galatians 16 is clearly referring to God’s promise to Abraham that “in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” It does not mention Jacob or is there a promise made to Jacob using this language. This covenant was made at the time of the Passover of Isaac. Even by your calculations, the Sons of Israel would have been in Canaan 33 years and Egypt 397 years, not 30 years and 400 years. The interpretation of the Israelites being in Egypt for 400 years cannot be correct because it is in direct conflict with other scriptures, i.e. the genealogy of Moses. I think the correct interpretation would be that the Sons of Israel left Egypt exactly 430 years after the Passover of Isaac. It draws the connection between the 3 Passovers and is consistent with other scriptures. Another conflict that must be resolved is the one of Joseph being 30 years old when he began the service to Pharaoh. This would be just 13 years after his arrival and 9 years before his family arrived. I think when the Bible states "Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Gen 41:46) it represents the 30 years from Joseph's calling by God. This would indicate that Joseph was 56 years old (17 plus 30 plus 7 plus 2) when Jacob arrived at age 130. Jacob was therefore 74 years old when Joseph was born. This would mean that Jacob was 60 years old when his parents sent him to Padan Aram, as opposed to 77 years old. A clear example of this type of calling is encountered in 1 Samuel 13:1 talking about King Saul. A literal translation reads as follows; 1Sam 13:1 A son of a year Saul when he became king .... The text makes it clear Saul was not one year old, yet on the surface this verse appears to be stating he was. This verse is actually stating that Saul was crowned king in the first year since being called by God. Saul became king in the same year he was anointed by God as commander over God's inheritance (1 Sam 10:1). How can we determine if Joseph was in Egypt for 22 years or 39 years before Jacob and his brothers arrived? We need to look at what the Bible records as happening during those years while Joseph was in Egypt. Joseph was 17 years old when he was sold into slavery by his brothers. His younger brother Benjamin was an infant or very young child. Joseph was born shortly after his half-sister, Dinah (Gen 30:21-25), at the end of Jacob's 14 years of service to Laban. Jacob then worked an additional 6 years (Gen 31:41). After that Jacob moved his family to Shechem. At Shechem Dinah was defiled (Gen 34). She was of an age to be married, 14-16 years old. Then Jacob was told by God to go up to Bethel and dwell (Gen 35:1). On this journey Benjamin was born (Gen 35:18-19). When Benjamin arrived in Egypt he would have been about 22-24 years old or 39-41 years old. Benjamin is recorded as having ten sons upon his arrival in Egypt (Gen 46:21). So Benjamin either married very young or it was 30 years from Joseph’s calling when he stood before Pharaoh. Also, after Joseph was sold into slavery, his brother Judah married a Canaanite woman (Gen 38). They had three sons who all grew to be adults. This would take at least 20 years. Then Judah had twin sons by Tamar. Their names were Perez and Zerah (Gen 38:27-30). When Perez arrived in Egypt, he had two sons. This would not be possible within 22 years, but is possible in 39 years. Therefore, the amount of time Jacob and his sons were actually in Canaan was 50 years, not 33. I enjoyed your website. You made some good points which I had not thought about previously. Yours in Christ, Jim Estes |
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