Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "I SAID, 'YOU ARE GODS?'" | Ps 82:6 | Ray | 122843 | ||
I was reading #18285 and other threads that spoke of the dangers of false teachers and false doctrines. Psalm 82:6 is a reference for the Word of Faith belief that "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High". This verse was one that I studied to determine who is speaking; for my study of pronouns requires to know that information for each passage. Verse six says that "I said". The marginal note in my NASB Study Bible says, [Lit. I, on my part]. So Benny Hinn and others can say that we are in the image of God and a part of God when we say "I am..." However, we can not count ourselves as gods or deity just because we say "I am". But the verse is important for the understanding that Jesus is the Son of God as compared to John 10:33-36 where He brings this Scripture to bear. If our rulers can be called gods and sons of the Most High by the Psalm writer on his part, can not Jesus call Himself the Son of God on His part? Jesus said that the Scripture, the word of God, cannot be broken. If we "count" the "I SAID, YOU ARE GODS" as being said by Deity then I would say that the Scripture has been broken. So I would say that false teachers are trying to put words in God's mouth. My question: The ALL CAPS of the Scriptures leave it up to you to interpret. If you agree that the "I said" is attributed to the Psalmist Asaph, how about the next phrase? 1) "I said, on my part, "You are gods"." Or, 2) "I said, on my part, "You are God's." That decision to my mind [gods or God's] also is important to whether the Scripture is "broken". We may need a Hebrew grammar scholar here. From the heart, Ray |
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2 | "I SAID, 'YOU ARE GODS?'" | Ps 82:6 | Zsuzsi | 122995 | ||
Ray... :-) I am no Hebrew grammar scholar but here is what I think: Counting it to have been said by Deity does not necessarily mean it's 'putting words into God's mouth'. Remember the discussion we had before, ID# 122481 and the replies? If 'gods' (elohim) is interpreted as 'judges/rulers' with reference to the power we received from God (over nature etc, see Gen 1:26-29), and we say that 'children of the Most High' refers to how we have been made in His likeness, it is in no dsagreement with the point Jesus was making in John 10:33-36: if men were given so much power and dignity as to be called 'gods' and 'children of the Most High', how much more was Jesus, who was by nature God Himself (Phil 2:6), 'allowed' to call Himself the Son of God? Reading the whole psalm still makes me think it should be interpreted as 'rulers', 'judges', or 'people possessing some sort of power'... Read Psalm 82:7 (KJV), "But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes". So the reminder is definitely there, we cannot claim 'I am god/deity'. We can claim 'I am mighty' or 'I am a judge' or 'I have power', however. C.v. Psalm 82:1. To me the whole point of this psalm is similar to that of Ezekiel 28, which I was referring to earlier. We do have power to 'judge', even 'unjustly' (v2), but also to 'defend the poor and fatherless' (v3). This is the power which the Pharisees had also - I believe Jesus was referring to that when He used this passage from Scripture against them to prove Himself. For 'they know not, neither do they understand, they walk on in darkness" (v5). C.v: Isaiah 6:10, Jeremiah 5:21, Ezekiel 12:2, John 12:40... So Version 1) definitely makes sense, whether we actually accept that it was said by Deity or the psalmist. In any case, I believe it refers to the earthly power He has given to us, which creates pride in too many people. The psalm is a warning against it, as well as a cry from the humble to the Lord to "judge the earth". See also: "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? for thou hast made him little lower than angels (NIV and AMP: 'heavenly beings'/'God', NASB: "God"), and hast crowned him with glory and honour" Psalm 8:4-5 (So He made us 'gods' - that's why I think most probably He is talking in this passage, but that's just a personal comment.) Personally I would not go with 2). The word 'gods' ('elohim', Strong's no: 0430) means: "(plu) rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods, (sing) god, goddess, godlike one, works or special possessions of God, the (true) God, God". I understand that in some sense, one could translate it as 'God's (works or special possessions)'. But then Jesus' reference would not make much sense, and neither would the rest of the psalm. If the people are 'God's', why does Jesus use the passage against them? And why would the psalmist himself talk about the injustice of the earthly leaders/mighty ones? (Injustice is not of God, it is not characterstic of 'God's' people) Whatever we go with, the point is the same: men have been exalted by God and received much power, but they have abused it; yet when Someone in the very nature of God came with much-much more power, using it only for good things, He was rejected when He claimed to be the Son of God. :-( Hope this helps a little... May God bless you in everything you do for him, but especially in your work with the capitalization of His Word, Zsuzsi |
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3 | "I SAID, 'YOU ARE GODS?'" | Ps 82:6 | Ray | 123085 | ||
Hi Zsuzsi, You have asked me to look at the King James version for Psalm 82:1 in order to establish the claim that "'I am mighty' or 'I am a judge' or 'I have power'." Psalm 82:1, "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." However, even with the lower case being used, should we not think that God stands in His own congregation and that He is the One who judges? The rulers or the gods are the ones who judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked. Psalm 9:3, "When my enemies turn back, They stumble and perish before Thee. 4 For (Thou) hast maintained my just cause; **Thou dost sit on the throne judging righteously. *Thou has rebuked the nations; Thou hast destroyed the wicked; Thou has blotted out their name forever and ever." Psalm 82:5, "They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most (High). Nevertheless, you will die like men, And fall like any one of the princes." 8 Arise, O **God, judge the earth! For it is *Thou who dost possess all the nations." Psalm 9:19, "Arise, O *Lord, do not let man prevail; Let the nations be judged before Thee. 20 Put them in fear, O Lord; Let the nations know that they are but men." 1) Psalm 82:1, NASB, "God takes His stand in His/ own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. [Lit. gods]. John 10:33, NKJ, "...and because You, being a Man, make Yourself/ God." 2) I believe that the ones who hated God (in Jesus) exalted themselves just as Psalm 83 says. I believe also that the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit [with Him]. 1 Cor 6:17. From the heart, Ray |
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4 | "I SAID, 'YOU ARE GODS?'" | Ps 82:6 | Zsuzsi | 123197 | ||
Ray, I agree with most of your points: God judges, and 'gods' are who judge (on earth) and show partiality to the wicked. Also, I agree that the ones who hated God exalted themselves... I also believe that if we join ourselves to the Lord, we are one spirit with Him. What I do not understand is how 'His own' has come into the passage. If we are indeed one with Him when we join ourselves to Him, we do not hate Him and do not exalt ourselves to His place; we live by His Spirit. For people who are reborn in Christ, there is no judgment (condemnation), I believe (Rom 8:1). This made me think that God will not judge in 'His own' congregation, but 'the congregation' of disloyal 'gods'. This way in Psalm 82:8, God does not 'possess' the nations, but 'will inherit' them (see the different translations of this verse). Do you agree with me about the followings? 1) The judgment of God, which the psalm talks about, refers to the last judgment (Day of Judgment), which is heavenly and eternal (i.e. it is not the judgment that God executes already while we are on earth). 2) The judgment of 'gods' here refers to the unjust judgments of mortal rulers; this judgment is executed by people, it is earthly and will be 'judged' by God on the last day. Looking forward to seeing what you think. God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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5 | "I SAID, 'YOU ARE GODS?'" | Ps 82:6 | Ray | 123310 | ||
Hi Zsuzsi, I don't see the last judgment in Psalm 82, but rather an active involvement by God in the affairs of men. You have written that you do not understand "how 'His own' has come into the passage." Psalm 82:1 in the NASB reads, "God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers." The NASB Study Bible has in its marginal note for the verse, [Lit. the congregation of God]. 1) I believe that we have to know for Psalm 82 whether God is speaking or whether the words are from our own spirits. Ezekiel 13:1, "Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy from their own inspiration, 'Listen to the word of the Lord! 3 Thus says the Lord (God), "Woe to the foolish prophets who are following their own spirit and have seen nothing."' John 12:40, "He has blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and (I) heal them." 2) Psalm 8:4-6 I see as a passage that is talking about the Son of Man rather than the son of man. The name of the Lord is majestic in all the earth. Hebrews 2:6-9 is also speaking of the Son of Man and we see that Jesus is crowned with glory and honor. Hebrews 2 would have us pay close attention to what we hear. Hebrews 1:14 might be another way of saying "test the spirits". Test the words spoken through angels for they prove to be unalterable or steadfast. From the heart, Ray |
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6 | "I SAID, 'YOU ARE GODS?'" | Ps 82:6 | Zsuzsi | 123337 | ||
Hi again Ray, Thanks for your reply, I must admit I have slightly (very?) different views about basically all of the passages you were referring to, but that is okay, of course. :-) Thanks for the passage translation, now I do understand where it came from. KJV and NIV are the translations I use most often and it can be translated as 'congregation of rulers/gods', or as you said, 'congregation of God'. Hebrew can be hard to put into English at times. :-) For the rest, this is what I think: 1) You said you believe the psalm was referring to the active involvement of God in the affairs of men. (I asssume by this you mean His earthly involvement in our affairs.) This is the first point of disagreement: I actually believe it talks about the Last Judgment - my thinking originates especially from v8 saying "thou shalt inherit all nations"... As far as I know, that will not happen before the second Pentecost... It seems to me that the psalmist is crying for the coming of God ("stand in the congregation", "arise" etc) But in a way I do understand your thinking too... 2) You were asking who was talking. Personally I believe the psalmist talks in v1-5, God in 6-7, and the psalmist again in v8. To me it seems like the psalmist foresees the reply/judgment of God: "I [God] said ye are gods [you have authority from Me to judge, eg. Rom 13:1-2, or Jer 5:31] ... but ye shall die like men [because of your iniquity]." 3) For Psalm 8:4-6, together with Hebrews 2:6-9: I would rather say that it was man (humanity) who was made 'little lower than the angels', which is great dignity FOR MAN - he got power over all nature, as Psalm 8:6-8 mentions - but the rest of this psalm still affirms that primarily it is all God's wonderful creation. (Even though God does 'care for' man, He is still much more powerful than us.) At the same time, and this is what I believe Hebrews 2:6-9 is telling us, becoming a man, that is, 'little lower than the angels', FOR GOD was a great act of humility, out of His love for man. He 'tasted death for every man' so that He may call us 'brethen'. C.v. Phil 2:5(6)-12. 4) Of course we should test the spirits. But I have hope that the 'spirits' whose writings are included in the Bible were truly writing what God inspired them to write. :-) Thanks for your patience in this discussion. God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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7 | "I SAID, 'YOU ARE GODS?'" | Ps 82:6 | Ray | 123617 | ||
Hi Zsuzsi, 1) I am not familiar with "the second Pentecost". You have chosen the KJ to quote from for "thou [sic] shalt inherit all nations". Is not God Himself the possessor of all the nations? You do not want to fall like one of the princes. Psalm 83:11 talks about nobles like Oreb and Zeeb and princes like Zebah and Zalmunna. They said, "Let us possess for ourselves the pastures of God." 2) I see Psalm 82 as totally spoken by Asaph. I looked at Psalm 2:7 for another place where one would wonder who is speaking. "I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:" Or, "I will tell of the decree:" Here in this Psalm also we see who owns the earth. "He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Thy possession. 3) You wrote of great dignity FOR MAN. With the ALL CAPS we don't know who you are speaking of. But Psalm 8, to my mind is speaking of the Son of Man. Psalm 8:5, "For Thou hast made Him a little lower than God, And dost crown Him with glory and majesty." The Psalm begins and ends with "O Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth." Hebrews 2:9, "But we do see Him/ who has been made a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus,..." Phil 2:10, "That at the name of Jesus/ every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." From the heart, Ray |
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