Results 1 - 15 of 15
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Searcher56 | 171529 | ||
Scripture ... 1 Kin 21:20-26, 22:50-53; 2Ki 2:11, 3:1, 8:16-24, 2Ch 21:5-10,20 ... drbloor, In post 171499 you said "If Elijah went to Heaven how and why was he back on Earth writing a letter to Jehoram King of Judah nearly ten years later? (2 Chr 21:12)" ... Why do you say "nearly ten years later"? Read the timing in the Bible (1 Ki 22:50, 2Ki 2:11, 3:1, 8:16-24, 22:8ff; 2Ch 21:1ff). Then in 171518 post you claim “In addition, we are not told that the letter was written by Elijah, but that the letter "came ... from Elijah". If Elijah was in Heaven, then the letter came from Heaven!” … How do you know it was sent after he was taken? Also in post 171518 you wrote “The answer given to this is to claim that the letter was written before Elijahs disappearance. However, this would necessitate not only the foreknowledge of the specific particulars of the letter – events that had not occurred at the time of Elijahs disappearance, such as Jehoram murdering his brothers – but it would also require for God to have condemned Jehoram before he committed any sin and it would require Elijah to have allowed these murders to take place without attempting to stop them. That is an implausible reach.” If you read the Bible (1Ki 22:50, 2Ch 21:1ff), you’ll see that Jehoram killed his brothers as soon as he became king and he did evil in the sight of the Lord. Even if the letter was written before Jehoram … should I even say born … the Lord allows things to happen, while letting men have their choice. At the end of 1 Kings, Elijah told what would happen to Ahab, Inc. … tho he repented, it didn’t change God’s mind. God’s mind was changed for a time because of Josiah (2Ki 22:8ff) … while his son wasn’t on the throne yet, there was still the prophecy. Searcher |
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2 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | drbloor | 171604 | ||
Dear Searcher, Thankyou for your thoughtful response. Elijah makes his exit in 2 Kings 2, shortly after King Ahaziah of Israels death (Dies in 2 Kings 1) and about the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne (Begins to reign in 2 Kings 3). Elisha is clearly the primary prophet of God at this time (2 Ki 3:11), and even deals with King Jehoshaphat of Judah - the predeccesor of Jehoram of Judah (the one who receives the letter.) So Elijah was well out of the way before Jehoram of Judah comes to power. Now the Jehoram who received the letter from Elijah was Jehoram King of Judah, and he began to reign in the 5th year of King Jehoram of Israel (2 Ki 8:16). So it was about 5 years after the departure of Elijah that Jehoram of Judah killed his brothers. Now Jehoram of Judah reigned for 8 years (2 Chr 21:20) and the letter from Elijah arrived 2 years before he died (2 Chr 21:19), so Jehoram of Judah had been on the throne 6 years when he received the letter. So you have a gap of about 5 years between Elijah disappearing and Jehorams coming to power and then 6 years of his reign making, well, at least 10 years between the disappearance of Elijah and the arrival of the letter. Now I've got to admit that maths isn't my strong point, and I haven't just copy and pasted that, so you can check it if you want and make sure it's right. As to your other question: How do I know the letter was sent after he was taken? Because the letter addresses events that occurred after Elijahs disappearance, and refers to them in the past tense, and it gives a direct prophecy in the future tense which would begin to happen immediately. It was clearly written at a specific point in time. To claim that Elijah wrote the letter before disappearing and left it around for someone to deliver is a sad attempt to ignore the obvious truth which is in front of you regarding Elijahs destination. There are three different heavens spoken of in the Bible: 1. The heaven where God abides. 2. The heaven where the stars are. 3. The heaven where the birds are. The word for "heaven" in this case is "Shamayim" which is far more frequently and appropriately used to refer not to Heaven where God abides, but to the air above us. In fact in 1 Kings it is translated several times as "Air". But let's try and prove exactly which heaven we are dealing with here. As already discussed, Jesus categorically states that no-one has ever ascended to the Heaven where God abides, so Elijah didn't go there. I very much doubt that God transported Elijah into outer-space to kill him, so we can safely predict he didn't go there. The only option left is that the chariot containing Elijah took off from the ground into the heaven of the sky, until Elisha "saw him no more". This is backed up by the eye-witnesses who went to look for Elijah. (N.B. It is unclear whether the 50 men had seen Elijah leave, but it is possible, and at the very least they had a first hand account of the event from Elisha.) If they had seen him shoot straight up into the sky, or Elisha had told them he'd gone to be with God in Heaven they would not have gone to search for him in the direction they HAD seen him travel. Elisha had faith that God would prevent Elijah from falling from the chariot, but the others feared he may have fallen out part of the way through his journey which, as we've said, was laterally and not vertically. Okay, I had better post this to the board and go home. Searcher, if you disagree with this, please explain why when Jesus said, "No man hath ascended up to heaven," he was actually lying. As I mentioned before, the answer you directed me on the subject was totally inadequate. It referred to a context that simply isn't in any verse in that chapter. And please explain why those sons of prophets went on a long trek to look for Elijah if Elisha had told them he'd just been transported into Heaven. Okay, and thanks for your consideration, Dr. B. (Apologies for the late reply - my internet cut out about 3 hours ago) |
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3 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Searcher56 | 171631 | ||
Dr. B., Prophecy is sometimes written in the past tense. All I need is one example - Isaiah 53. So the tense issue is mute. Searcher | ||||||
4 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | drbloor | 171634 | ||
Dear Searcher, I have already proved that Elijah did not go to Heaven, and that the letter was not just written, but came directly FROM Elijah, which would be impossible if he were in heaven. So your prophecy issue is moot. Dr. B. |
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5 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Searcher56 | 171637 | ||
Dr. B. You brought up the point that the letter was written is the past tense and I proved to you that prophecy is written in the past tense, including Isaiah 53. Now saying my prophecy issue is moot is soooooo funny. It happens often when I prove someone wrong. Searcher | ||||||
6 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | drbloor | 171645 | ||
Dear Searcher, Regarding the letter which you claim is prophecy, you have yet to prove that it is a prophecy. The context of the chapter and the proof I have given that Elijah did not go to Heaven render your discussion of prophecy pointless. Come back to me when you can prove that it is prophecy. Dr. B. |
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7 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Searcher56 | 171646 | ||
Scripture ... 2 Chronicles 21:14-19 ............ Dr. B. - I see you didn't what the letter said. Read the latter part (2 Chr 21:14-15) ... then the fulfillment (vv 17-19). Searcher |
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8 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | drbloor | 171650 | ||
Dear Searcher, Quite the pedant. Let me rephrase. Please prove that the letter was written before Elijah departed, and that it was not written at the time. Yrs, Dr. B. |
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9 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Searcher56 | 171674 | ||
one FINAL time ... I have already proved that the letter was written before he departed It says the letter ws sent by Elijah and he had a chariot ride - by your count about 10 years. Maybe it was put away like the account of Mordecai in Esther, where there was a time between the writting and reading. |
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10 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | drbloor | 171677 | ||
Dear Searcher, You say that you know the letter was not written at the time because "the BIBLE tells me so" in 2 Chr 21:12. Where in 2 Chr 21:12 does it say that Elijah wrote the letter before his chariot ride? You must have a different Bible to me. You keep saying that you have proved this already, but you have yet to provide a single verse that supports your argument. Yrs, Dr. B. |
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11 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Morant61 | 171680 | ||
Greetings Dr. B! Just out of curiosity, where does the Bible say WHEN Elijah took his chariot ride? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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12 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | drbloor | 171683 | ||
Dear Tim, In answer to your two posts on the timing of Elijahs exit: If you take the simple chronology that is set out in 2 Kings then Elijah left after Ahaziah died and about the time that Jehoram began to rule in Israel. If are not sure that the chapter has been placed chronologically then we can move on to 2 Kings 3, where we read this: 2 Ki 3:11 But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD, that we may enquire of the LORD by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah. This verse tells us that the principle prophet in the land was now Elisha, not Elijah, otherwise they would have called for Elijah. The King mentioned at the start of the verse is Jehoshaphat, the father of Jehoram of Judah who received the letter. Jehoram killed his brothers after Jehoshaphat had died and they were no longer under his protection, and as we have seen Elijah must have left before Jehoshaphat died because Elisha had already taken over his role. As the letter arrives after 6 years of Jehorams reign as King, Elijah must have been absent for at least 6 years, and quite possibly several more. As for your point that "it is quite possible that Elijah could have still been alive." - that's still perfectly true. We are not told that Elijah died, but merely that he was taken through the sky on a chariot. I hope this helps. Yrs, Dr. B. |
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13 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Morant61 | 171688 | ||
Greetings Dr. B! Thanks for the reply! As I understand it, the timing would allow for the possibilty that Elijah's chariot ride had not yet taken place at the time of the letter of 2 Chr. 21:12. Allow me to demonstrate. 2 Kings 3:1 says that Joram began to reign in the 18th year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah. 1 Kings 22:42 tells us that Jehoshaphat reigned for 25 years. Yet, 2 Kings 1:17 tells us that Joram began to reign in the second year of Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat. Further, 2 Kings 8:16 tells us that Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began to reign in the 5th year of Joram. This would indicate that Jehoram co-reigned with Jehosphaphat for a period of about 7 years. Joram's reign is actually mentioned for the first time in 2 Kings 1:17, prior to Elijah's chariot ride in 2 Kings 2. This is simply a long way of saying that it is possible that the letter of 2 Chr. 21:12 was written prior to the events of 2 Kings 2. We simply don't know exactly when that famous chariot ride took place. Here is what the Bible Knowledge commentary says about it: "This letter from Elijah is of more than passing interest because it is the only known written message from the great prophet. Some scholars allege that it could not be authentic since, they say, Elijah was translated to heaven before Jehoram began to reign. But Elijah was still living on earth in the days of Joram, son of Ahab, who succeeded his brother Ahaziah in 852 b.c. (cf. 2 Kings 1:17). This event, the author of 2 Kings wrote, occurred ”in the second year of Jehoram . . . king of Judah.“ Though Jehoram’s sole regency in Judah began in the year of Jehoshaphat’s death (848), he co-reigned with his father from 853 to 848. It is still true, of course, that Jehoram could not have murdered his brothers until after 848 so the matter of Elijah’s knowledge of this fact still remains. Since there is no certain way to date Elijah’s translation perhaps it did not take place until 848 or even later." Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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14 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | drbloor | 171694 | ||
Dear Tim, As we can tell from 2 Ki 3:11 that Elisha had taken on the mantle of Elijah while Jehoshaphat was alive, we know that Elijah made his disappearance during the time of the co-regency, and before the murders of Jehorams brothers. 2 Chr 21 indicates that the letter arrived after Jehoram had ruled in Jerusalem for 6 years after his fathers death. So whilst I agree that Elijah sent the letter personally, I firmly believe that his chariot ride must have taken place at least 6 years previously. Yrs, Dr. B. |
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15 | drbloor, where is your Biblical support? | 2 Chr 21:12 | Morant61 | 171705 | ||
Greetings Dr. B! It took me a second to figure out where you were getting the six years. :-) We know that he reigned (alone at least) for 8 years. We know that he was ill for two years (2 Chron. 21:19). However, 2 Chron. 21:18 does not necessarily indicate that the illness took place at the same time as the letter was received. So, I don't think we can pinpoint the letter precisouly. I've got to run! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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