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|81||Who is the Wretched Man?||Rom 7:24||humbledbyhisgrace||209920|
On your point 1 I still find disagreement because of the passage in Philippians. This passage is actually Paul "a mature Christian", a regenerate person describing himself when he was a Pharisee. The very thing you are saying about Romans 7:14-25.
Who are the "early church fathers" you are referring to?
By the way, I have already mentioned I didn't even know this passage was viewed differently and my understanding doesn't come from someone else's view. I say that just to make the point that I have not adopted the view of others but rather it is my own understanding of Scripture. So, if I am wrong in my understanding it is not due to others but rather my own inabilities to understand :-(
Your point 2 still does not validate the passage as you have described it (my opinion :-)
When Paul or you or me or anyone was sold into the bondage of sin, we were indeed the "I", we were nothing but "fleshly". It is a statement of fact so to speak. If it were describing his current state, then the following verses would have to reflect that truth i.e. that he, the "I" is still in bondage to sin wouldn't it?
Hopefully from that you can follow my way of thinking on this :-) So, if you would, give the same treatment to Romans 7:17 as you did Romans 7:14
Romans 7:17 Now then no more I that do it, but that dwelleth in me. sin
By the way, what resource are you using for the literal translation you presented?
Your bother in Christ,
|82||How many Gods||Bible general Archive 4||humbledbyhisgrace||209879|
Just wanted to toss this in the mix also.
See Romans 8:9-11
Romans 8:9-11 (NASB)
8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he does not belong to Him.
8:10 IF CHRIST IS IN YOU, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
8:11 But if the SPIRIT OF HIM who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Granted, the triune God is not easy to wrap ones mind around and even harder to put to words but it's impossible to argue against the deity of Christ Jesus considering all of Scripture!
Yours was an excellent post brother! Well said!!!
|83||Who is the Wretched Man?||Rom 7:24||humbledbyhisgrace||209862|
In regards to you speaking for me, well, I guess I don't mind so much brother as long as it's accurate :-)
But in this case it's not an accurate assessment so I must correct what you said.
It appears all my ramblings are not properly conveying my thoughts.
The contradiction is that we are to believe for example the lost person joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man (v22). The Scriptures say the lost person is dead in his trespasses and sins indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind , and by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1, 3). This dear brother does not reflect one who joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man. We are not talking about a simple matter of the mind, but the nature of the man.
Where I disagree with your position is where you say there "is a direct 1 to 1 correlation". Look at verse 14 again. Paul does not say that he is NOW sold into sin. He says "I am OF flesh, sold into bondage to sin". The flesh is sold into bondage to sin. This is a statement of fact and it applies to all of us. Those who are lost or nothing but sinful flesh. Only in Him do we have freedom. The freedom as I pointed out and understand it is we are justified in Him, no longer condemned. The freedom is not that the flesh is no longer sinful. This is clear from Romans 6:6-7, 6:12-13a, and Romans 8:5-8. It is only once Christ is in us the spirit lives (Romans 8:10).
I have a question for you my brother. In verse 24 Paul says "Wretched man that I am!..." Tell me, considering what Scripture teaches us about the lost as I have pointed out in previous post in this thread and again above regarding Ephesians 2:1 and 2:3, where do we find the lost person considering themselves wretched? Granted, they are indeed wretched, but given Scripture, how are we to understand that one described as they are has such a view of themselves as so?
That is how I understand it. It is much much more than a matter of the mind as you attributed to my position.
Your brother in Christ,
|84||How many Gods||Bible general Archive 4||humbledbyhisgrace||209861|
Do you believe that Jesus is God?
|85||Who is the Wretched Man?||Rom 7:24||humbledbyhisgrace||209745|
|PS. I'll take a look at the other two post you responded with as soon as I get some more time.
Enjoying the dialog brother!
|86||Who is the Wretched Man?||Rom 7:24||humbledbyhisgrace||209744|
To a Pharisee, was there understanding of righteousness not in the "observance of the Law"? Yes, indeed it was and when Paul says he was found blameless in regards to the righteousness that is in the Law he is stating his view of his past life as a Pharisee. He goes on to say he counts it all as loss that he may be found in Christ, not having a righteousness of his own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (Philippians 3:8-9). I'm not sure how we could find his meaning of not being blameless in regards to the righteousness that is in the Law anything but him viewing himself sinless at the time he was a Pharisee.
By the way, it is not my notion but rather Scripture that explains the state of the lost. It is clear that the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14). It is clear that the flesh does not and cannot submit itself to the laws of God (Romans 8:7). It is clear from the word that all are under sin there are none righteous, none understand, none seeks for God, all have turned aside, all have become useless, none does good (Romans 3:10-12). I don't think we can in good conscience ignore that when considering the passage of scripture in question. The Judaism argument side steps the issue altogether. I didn't present the argument as you stated it. Never the less, their legalistic approach to righteousness does indeed reflect what the scriptures teach in regards to the lost.
On your third point I think I have been trying to address that. I personally do not see the passage as you have described it. The contradiction as I see it comes when trying to view the passage as describing a lost person. This is why I pointed to what the word teaches us about the lost person. In context of the whole I personally fail to see how the passage in question can ever relate to one who is lost. The greater contradiction as I see it is to claim the things Paul says is that of a non-believer. There the contradictions to overcome becomes greater then my simple mind could ever reason given the clear teaching in Scripture of the fallen man. Paul makes a crucial point in verses 17 and 18. SO NOW, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (v17) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh... (v18). Yet as a Pharisee, blameless. Go figure! :-)
The Law was spiritual, not Paul, he like we were sold into bondage to sin. It is not that we are not capable of sinning any longer. But we have been justified, declared righteous in Christ! No longer condemned (Romans 6:6-7, 8:1). This is our freedom from sin! Our obligation is no longer to the flesh (Romans 8:12) but the Spirit! Putting to death the deeds of the body. The corruption of the flesh is ever present (Romans 8:5-8) and Paul clearly warns of our obligation to live according to the Spirit and not the flesh (Romans 8:13).
Sorry for the long delay in responding. It was a busy weekend and typical Monday...
Your brother in Christ,
|87||Who is the Wretched Man?||Rom 7:24||humbledbyhisgrace||209582|
Let me first say when I read your first post on this I had no idea there was even a debate on the passage of Scripture. I found myself scratching my head at your teaching. So after responding the first time or two and waiting to see your follow on post I started doing a little research to try and understand what the debate/difference in views on the passage was. Like I said, it was news to me?!?!?!
Anyway, it has been an interesting study/look at the whole thing. Not that I covered all that probably could be found on the subject written by others but enough to see the different arguments.
Looking at what Hoekema said let me just quickly say as I have already pointed out, Paul himself seems to have a different view of himself as a Pharisee than Hoekema does (Philippians 3:6). No indication of a struggle with sin! Sounds like to me Paul had no struggle with his sin nature until he found out he had one. And as I pointed out in the first post, Scripture tells a different story of the lost person (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8, Galatians 5:16-25, etc...).
Thank you all the same for the post. I've been taking the time to look through all of this.
Let me share with you something in return. As I was searching the net for material on this passage of Scripture I found this which does an excellent job on the text / subject.
Galatians 5:16-17 (NASB)
5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
God bless my Brother,
|88||how can we minister to homosexuals||Bible general Archive 4||humbledbyhisgrace||209511|
Do you think what Jeff is saying is that one "practicing drunkenness, adultery, deception, thievery, sorcery, and idolatry" MIGHT (as in IS, or MIGHT already be) saved?
|89||Who is the Wretched Man?||Rom 7:24||humbledbyhisgrace||209444|
I'm not aware of scripture that teaches Saul the Pharisee tried to obey the Law or wanted to obey the Law but didn't or couldn't because of sin. Is there Scripture reference that speaks to this struggle?
We do have his view of himself regarding his righteousness in the Law as a Pharisee.
Philippians 3:6 (NASB) "... as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless."
As a Pharisee he viewed himself blameless in regards to the Law. Where was the struggle we find in Romans 7:14-25?
I'm not seeing it brother!
Your brother in Christ,
|90||Who is the Wretched Man?||Rom 7:24||humbledbyhisgrace||209379|
It seems to be a stretch to say this was Paul speaking of himself as a Pharisee so I hope you don't mind me breaking in your study :-). So in an attempt to reconcile, let me reverse the question. Considering verses 21-23, 25 how does one reconcile the passage to be speaking of a none believer?
Romans 7:21-23 and 25 (NASB)
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Where in Scripture do we see it taught that the natural man "wants to do good” or “joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” or struggles with a “different law in the members of" the "body” and “the law of” the mind, or with the “mind” serve the “law of God” but with the “flesh the law of sin”?
Is it not true that the mind set on the flesh does not submit itself to the laws of God and is not even able to do so (Romans 8:7)? The desires of the natural man or not the things of God but of the flesh (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8, Galatians 5:16-25). And what of Romans 3:10-12?
Considering verse 17. If he indeed is describing himself as when he was a Pharisee, how is it as a Pharisee, it is no longer him doing it but sin in him? As a Pharisee, when was he set free from the bondage of sin?
And one last point. How do we reconcile verse 25. Again, if Paul is describing himself as a Pharisee, how do we reconcile that he thanks God through Jesus Christ our Lord and yet concludes that on the one hand he serves the law of God with his mind but on the other with his flesh the law of sin? A Pharisee thanking God through Jesus Christ our Lord???
Although a Christian has been set free from sin, they can indeed be fleshly (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)
Also, Romans 6:12-13 seem to clearly indicate that although the believer is no longer a slave to sin, sin is certainly still a distinct possibility in the life of a believer.
Romans 6:12-13 (NASB)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
What am I missing?
Your brother in Christ,
|91||Why is Jeremiah as the weeping prophet||Jer 18:6||humbledbyhisgrace||209288|
I'm a bit confused by why you would say "Everyone wants to be appreciated, Jeremiah was not appreciated and even spent a time in the septic tank where he was slated to die--but he was rescued."
It seems to me that is far from what we actually know of Jeremiah. If it were appreciation he was seeking then would he have endured all he did for the glory of God? Or would there have been such despair for the people?
Granted, he was not appreciated by the people. But I'm not aware of Scripture that would give reason to believe Jeremiah was seeking the approval of the people for self glorification. That in and of itself seems to contradict the message all together.
Jeremiah 20:9-12 (NASB)
20:9 But if I say, "I will not remember Him Or speak anymore in His name," Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; And I am weary of holding it in, And I cannot endure it.
20:10 For I have heard the whispering of many, "Terror on every side! Denounce him; yes, let us denounce him!" All my trusted friends, Watching for my fall, say: "Perhaps he will be deceived, so that we may prevail against him And take our revenge on him."
20:11 But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.
20:12 Yet, O LORD of hosts, You who test the righteous, Who see the mind and the heart; Let me see Your vengeance on them; For to You I have set forth my cause.
Could you please explain from Scripture what you mean by the statement? To me it doesn't fit so if Scripture teaches that indeed it does, I would be more then willing to view it as Scripture teaches it :-)
Your brother in Christ,
|92||Why Did god call jesus his begotten sun?||John 3:16||humbledbyhisgrace||209257|
|The Son is not an Angel! He is God the Son! Angels are created beings. Created by God! Note that even the passage you point to teaches who did the creating! See John 1:1-3 also.
He is not the FIRST son of God, He is the ONLY begotten Son of God! (John 3:16, John 3:18). He was not "founded" as you say, even the scripture you point to shows that.
Jehovah Witness teach it like you do. Are you a Jehovah Witness?
|93||cast your seed into the belly of a whor||OT general||humbledbyhisgrace||208991|
Welcome to the Study Bible Forum!
I don't think there is a passage such as you are seeking. I think that comes from a teaching based on scripture in Genesis chapter 38. See below. Read all of Chapter 38 and see below also Easton’s Bible Dictionary info for the Levirate Law that will be helpful in understanding the passage.
Genesis 38:7-10 (NASB)
7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother."
9 Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
10 But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.
LEVIRATE LAW — from Latin levir, “a husband’s brother,” the name of an ancient custom ordained by Moses, by which, when an Israelite died without issue, his surviving brother was required to marry the widow, so as to continue his brother’s family through the son that might be born of that marriage (Gen. 38:8; Deut. 25:5–10; comp. Ruth 3; 4:10). Its object was “to raise up seed to the departed brother.” – Easton’s Bible Dictionary
|94||how did jesus teach disciples about||Matt 16:19||humbledbyhisgrace||208970|
Is your user name (Matt1078) in reference to Matthew 10:7-8?
|95||Did He mean today or someday?||Bible general Archive 4||humbledbyhisgrace||208884|
It doesn’t matter about the punctuation. That is not what determines the meaning of the passage.
The JW’s teach there is no intermediate state of the dead and no eternal punishment for the lost despite the clear teaching in scripture that refutes them. This is why they use this argument. However, Scripture clearly teaches there is an eternity for both the lost and saved. Everlasting punishment for the lost and life eternal for the saved. (Matthew 25:46, Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23:43, Hebrews 12:9, Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 20:10)!
|96||What about this 144,000?||John 14:6||humbledbyhisgrace||208835|
|Well Matt (?), based on your post it was the most logical assumption.
There is plenty of information on the web regarding apologetics. Many good sites have already been recommended in this thread. Spend some time checking them out. They can do a much better job for you then I can in explaining apologetics.
By the way, you remind me a great deal of bowler. Your writing style, argumentative personality, understanding of sola scriptura, apparent method of interpretation, context, etc... Did you use to hang out here on the forum as bowler?
|97||What about this 144,000?||John 14:6||humbledbyhisgrace||208791|
I like the site you referenced. I had not been there before but I like what I've seen so far. Thanks for the link!
|98||What about this 144,000?||John 14:6||humbledbyhisgrace||208790|
|Your welcome DW!
By the way, Val pointed out another web site. See her post for details!
I was just checking it out. Never been there before but so far I really like it. I would say it's another good one for you to reference!
|99||What about this 144,000?||John 14:6||humbledbyhisgrace||208788|
You sound as one who has never dealt with any of these false teachers?
For your edification, I pointed the user to the web site of Matt Slick (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) which is one of the best apologetics sites on the web. Brother Slick has dedicated his time and efforts to the ministry of apologetics and freely shares the information with others. It's a great site for equipping the saints to understand the biblical truths and the many false teachings out there.
|100||Lying justified?||Josh 2:5||humbledbyhisgrace||208753|
You will find no where in the bible that teaches it is morally acceptable to lie. It's the corrupt nature that would agree with that which is in contradiction to God's law (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7).
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