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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Tim Sheasby Ordered by Date
Results		Verse	Author	ID#
61	did the wine from the water make you dr	Bible general Archive 1	Tim Sheasby	22661
	I have seen everything you have seen. My wife's parents are alcoholics (drunkards according to scripture) and she grew up under horrific conditions. The problem is not alcohol however, it is self-control. Let us teach our brothers and sisters, our children, how to handle alcohol responsibly as a Christian should before binding on them a man made law "thou shalt not drink alcohol." Tim
62	did the wine from the water make you dr	Bible general Archive 1	Tim Sheasby	22660
	1. Not every non-Christian I know considers drinking alcohol a sin. Paul does say, however, that if eating or drinking is going to be a problem then he will not do it (Romans 14:21). 2. The Bible clearly condemns and warns against drunkenness. If people drank alcohol according to biblical principles ther would not be any alcoholics. The man who first defined alcoholism as a disease said that it took years of abuse to produce an alcoholic. Never just one drink. In our congregation we have a man who is a "recovering alcoholic". He drinks alcoholic wine every week at the Lord's Table yet this does not send him off on another alcoholic binge. According to my biblical understanding alcoholism is a SIN and not a DISEASE. 3. If you have never drunk alcohol you may not understand this but I know my limit when drinking alcohol. I NEVER go beyond this limit and get drunk. One of my co-workers, not a Christian, commented to another of my coleagues "Tim drinks the way we all SHOULD drink". My example stands sound - an example of self control. Remember even Jesus was accused of drunkenness. He spoke of himself in Matt 11:18-19 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Did Jesus drink Alcohol? Yes. Did he get drunk? I don't believe so but still people knew that he drank alcoholic wine. 4. I agree. I don't want to be associated with something connected with death or which breaks up homes. However, it is not the wine that does this but the ABUSE of wine. Along with the verses in scripture that speak of the evils of wine there are also verses that speak of the BLESSINGS of wine. For example a) in the OT Law the people were commanded to give offerings of wine (Lev 23:13; Num 15:5ff et al) which were a sweet aroma to the Lord. b) Is 25:6 The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine. Is 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost." Joel 2:24 The threshing floors will be full of grain, And the vats will overflow with the new wine and oil." Joel 3:18 "And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim.:" 5. Self control. Alcohol does not cause one to loose control -- ABUSE of alcohol does. I would be the first to condemn drunkenness. It is indeed an ugly and embarassing thing. There are times when I will not drink because of a weaker brother or sister but that does not mean I should never again drink what is a blessing from God. There is a danger of becoming Pharisaic about this. Jesus condemned the Phaarisees for binding their traditions on the people. Yet many of these traditions came about with the best intentions in the world. God drew a parameter -- in this case "don't get drunk". In order to protect ourselves we drew a smaller parameter -- "don't even touch the stuff". If that is what you choose to do then certainly that is your right but you cannot condemn someone for not having the same thinking. If it were a sin to drink alcohol then Jesus was a sinner -- an we know he was not. It is clearly a sin to get drunk -- that is what you must not do! In Christ The other Tim Tim Sheasby
63	did the wine from the water make you dr	Bible general Archive 1	Tim Sheasby	22657
	In answer: 1. There are 3 words used in the OT for wine. Not a single one can be shown to imply non alcoholic grape juice. 2. The whole point of the parable of the wine skins is that in the early stages of fermentation considerably more gas is produced which would burst old, inflexible, skins. This would of course result in the skin being ruined and the wine being spilt and therefore ruined. 3. I live in Cape Town in the heart of the wine producing area of South Africa. A friend of mine consulted a local winemaker concerning the potency of New Testament wine. The winemaker theorised that the wine then may in fact have been considerably stronger than many wines of today. His theory is that the water in the wine might transpire through the skin leaving a more potent, thick, almost syrupy wine. That is theory but the same friend consulted a Rabbi at one of the Universities in Israel (I can get the names and addresses if you want) who believed that New Testament wines may have been as strong as 17 or 18 percent As you point out, those drinks do not compare with the distilates of today but they certainly do compare with the wines produced today. It was as strong as or stronger than todays naturally fermented wines.
64	did the wine from the water make you dr	Bible general Archive 1	Tim Sheasby	22656
	Amen, amen and amen! Tim
65	Do you have to be baptized to be saved?	Rom 6:3	Tim Sheasby	22654
	As I posted in a reply to Nolan just minutes ago and as you have pointed out in one of your replies to one of my other postings (Whew!) this discussion is perhaps getting tired. My final argument -- Take it or leave it -- is this. 1. To be saved you must be "in Christ" 2 Cor 5:17. John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'" Only Christ can save and to take advantage of that salvation you have to be "in Him". 2. -- Rom 6:1-11 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." This very clearly shows a process. a. you die to sin b. you are burried with Christ in BAPTISM c. you THEN rise to live in newness of life Paul says that we are baptized INTO Christ (v. 3) 3. Since it is in Christ that we find salvation, and since it is BAPTISM that puts us into Christ, we have to conclude that BAPTISM is an essential element of SALVATION. This in no way denies that we are saved by faith since it is our faith that leads us to the waters of baptism. God said it I believe it That settles it I rest my case In Christ Tim
66	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22646
	No it is not. Now you are adding ANOTHER baptism. This brings the count up to 2 which does not equal 1. At least not in any school I ever attended. Tim
67	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22645
	Amen -- of water(baptism) and the Spirit. I say this because the use of the conjunction in this passage makes these two things refer to the same thing. In Christ Tim
68	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22644
	Going to have to end this discussion. You want baptism to be water baptism in one place and "metaphorical" in another. Sorry that is inconsistent with good biblical interpretation. To me scripture is plain and does not contradict itself. You and your reformist friends (since salvation by faith alone is a reformist doctrine) may never change your minds but still you insist on twisting the scripture to say baptism is not an essential element in conversion. In Christ Tim
69	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22640
	James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Works is not the same as law either. Bible says "not faith alone" you say "faith alone". I believe the Bible. Tim
70	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22635
	When speaking to baptized believers, as is the case throughout the epistles, it is not always necessary to talk about the birth process which is in effect what Baptism is. The truth of Ephesians 2:8-9 cannot cancel the truth of Mark 16:16 or 1 Peter 3:21. Even more convincing, now that I think of it, is Romans 6:1-11. Note especially Rom 6:3-4 "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." Also there are a whole string of conversion examples in Acts -- 10 cases that I know of -- that ALL include baptism but not belief, though I think belief can be assumed on the basis of the kind of people they were. Tim
71	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22631
	More Clarification. The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, given in the NT by the outpouring in Acts 2 (on the Apostles) and Acts 10 (on Cornelius and his household) is not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is automatically received when one believes and is baptized. Being able to speak in tongues or heal is not the seal of the Holy Spirit but an outward manifestation for the purpose of witness. In Acts 2 it supported the preaching of Peter and the other Apostles. In Acts 10 it showed Peter that the Gentiles were to be accepted as brethren. And in other places it was used for the same purpose. The indwelling Spirit, however, is our guarantee from God that we are one of His people. Tim
72	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22629
	The Greek word 'eis' can NOT mean "because of". One of the wonderful things about Greek is that is is far more explicit than English. Certainly in English 'for' can mean 'because of' but in Greek, the word 'eis' does not carry this meaning. Furthermore -- though I believe I have shown ample evidence that baptism is an essential element of salvation I can also show that 'faith alone' is not enough to save you. In fact the ONLY verse in the entire Bible that mentions 'faith alone' (Do the search yourself if you doubt this) is in James 2:24 -- You see that a man is justified by works and not by FAITH ALONE. (NASB, emphasis mine). The root meaning of the word 'eis' is 'into'. This passage should have, more properly, been translated "Repent and be baptised INTO the remission of sins." Correct translation in the first place would have removed all doubt about this issue. Proper interpretation cannot be based on ambiguous English words -- It must be based on proper translation of the original language. I have a dear brother in my congregation who has just finished 3 years ministerial training. There are at least 7 other members of the congregation (including myself) who have had training that included a study Koine Greek. We have already had to correct interpretation of this young man because of conclusions based on poor or ambiguous English translation of Scripture. To rephrase your last statement: "Hence, this verse, properly interpreted, indicates that water baptism IS CONCURRENT WITH the salvation experience." Tim
73	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22497
	Not a Mormon and in no way believe that you have to have Apostles hands laid on you to be saved. Have never given any indication that this is what I believe. There has still not been a single argument that holds up against the very command of Christ that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved. I believe it is both SCRIPTURAL and SAFE to preach that you have to be BAPTIZED to be saved. But you also have to BELIEVE. Baptism alone does not save, neither does faith (Read James). And finally BAPTISM is NOT a work. It is a submission. It is something done TO you not something you do to yourself. Those who say it is a work totally misunderstand what this is about. If I go to the doctor to get an injection the injection is not MY work. It is the DOCTORS work. I simply allow him to do it. Simple logic. You have to make a decision for yourself. All of us, and I include myself, must be very sure that we are not simply following the traditions we have grown up with but are lovers of truth 2 Thess 2:10 Phil 2:12 "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;" Tim
74	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22493
	Ok, Joe. Let's look again. There are definately 2 different things here and the terminology has indeed become muddled. The one aspect is one that imparts miraculous ability of one kind or another -- speaking in tongues, healing etc. The other is the 'indwelling' or internal gift of the Spirit. The first happened to the apostles and Cornelius prior to baptism and to the Samaritans some time after baptism. The purpose for this aspect was to provide proof and support to the young church as they had no New Testament in book form as we have it today. The other aspect is sometimes called the gift of the Spirit or the Seal of the Spirit and relates to an "internal" manifestation if you will and this is received at the point and instant of baptism. Manifestations of the first order, I believe, have passed away (1 Corinthians 13:8-10) since we have received the complete revelation of Gods word in the Bible as we hold it today. Tim
75	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22491
	On the death of a testator it takes some time before the last will and testament is actioned. In the case of Jesus this happened 50 days later at Pentecost. In Acts 2:38 (for the umteenth time) Peter said "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins". The 'for' here does not mean 'because of' but rather 'in order that' or 'so that' your sins can be forgiven. The grammar in the Greek indicates that repentance and baptism are PREREQUISITES to the forgiveness of sins. Salvation does not, and cannot come before baptism but rather at the moment of baptism. Tim
76	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22488
	1. Jesus is not walking around on earth today. He does forgive but has told us what we have to do to receive that gift. 2. Acts 2:38-41; Acts 8:12ff; Acts 8:13; Acts 8:36ff; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:47-48; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; Acts 19:1-5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Col 2:12; 1 Pet 3:21. And of course Ephesians 4:5 which reminds us that there is ONE baptism. 3. Not all who lived before Christ will be saved -- only the righteous. The righteous of old had a heart of repentance and obedience and so strived to do the will of God. Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent"
77	Weekly Communion?	1 Cor 11:25	Tim Sheasby	22484
	Legalism is not strict adherence to the laws of God. It is the imposition of traditions of men as if they were laws of God. The Pharisees were not condemned by Jesus for obeying the law but for binding tradition. However, I come from a very legalistic background and that may still echo in my life today. I pray not but have to face at least the possibility that it does. One point I did not mention in my previous posting is that historically alcoholic grape wine has been the only liquid element in the Lord's Supper until the American Prohibition era! Only after that did the concept of Grape Juice equals Fruit of the vine come into being. If Jesus held a cup of fermented alcoholic wine and said "I will not partake of THIS until I partake of it new with you in my Father's kingdom" was he not telling us what to use when remembering Him? If, as many argue, it is any by-product of the grape vine then why did he reject the wine offered him on the Cross and not the vinegar? To tell you the truth, I am still researching this for myself but when I think of Nadab and Abihu who offered strange fire and were struck dead for it I am forced to stop and think a bit more. They knew the correct fire to use but did not think it important so they used something else. Will you be condemned for using something else in the Lord's Supper? I really do not know. For my own conscience sake, though, I am forced to partake of the same element my Saviour used and we can be sure of one thing -- it was NOT grape juice but wine matured between 40 days and 3 years. It may or may not have been diluted with water but it was still essentially wine. Tim Sheasby
78	why is baptism important	2 Cor 5:17	Tim Sheasby	22482
	Dear Nolan I have enjoyed many of your comments on other topics I have followed on this forum. 1. In regard to your answer on Mark 16:16 -- You cannot argue baptism out of the first phrase just because it is not repeated in the second. What Jesus says is very simple -- to be saved you must believe and be baptized. These are both requirements of Jesus. To be condemned unbelief alone is sufficient. This is an old and common argument against baptism but if Jesus didn't require us to be baptized before we could be saved why did he say we must? 2. I was sent to preach not to baptize . . . -- I never said baptism is the gospel, but it IS a requirement to take advantage of the redeeming blood of Christ. In the context of the passage you will see that Paul was talking about sectarianism in the Corinthian congregation -- "I am of Peter, I am of Paul, I am of Apolos, I am of Christ". You will notice that he does not say that he did not baptize anyone but that his primary mission was to preach. In Acts, when Paul preaches and people respond and ask "what must I do?" what does Paul tell them? He tells them to get baptized. Baptism is an essential link in the chain of salvation. If this one link is broken then the chain is broken. But, as in any chain, each link could be said to be carrying the load. Each link then in effect saves. Yes, Jesus blood saves us. Yes, grace saves us. Yes, faith saves us. But, as Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 "baptism also saves us"
79	Weekly Communion?	1 Cor 11:25	Tim Sheasby	22478
	A friend and brother in Christ of mine has written a treatise on the Lord's Supper and the elements thereof. He gave me a copy to read and progress is extremely slow. This is a tome of over 500 pages and explores not only the New Testament words involved but also goes into detailed research of Old Testament law relating to Passover (since this was the feast that the Lord's supper was instituted at). Further he has looked at everything he could get his hands on relating to Jewish traditions surrounding the Passover -- specifically the Babylonian Talmud and the Mishna. He concludes that the very phrase Jesus used in reference to the cup in Matthew, "this the fruit of the vine", is a term with very specific connotation to the Jewish reader of the day and specifically to the apostles eating that supper with him. This phrase comes from the Jewish blessing reserved solely for fermented grape juice (wine) that had been fermenting for a minimum of 40 days and was not more than 3 years old. I have debated this to some extent with my father who did his thesis on the use of wine in the New Testament. He disagrees with this view saying that this may be nit picking. My own research continues but one thing that concerns me is "whose example should we follow?" I have been partaking of the Lord's Supper with a group that uses alcoholic wine and unleavened bread (baked according to Old Testament formulas) because of my uncertainty on this matter. Since there was no way to preserve grape juice in those days, and the grape harvest was long past, the liquid element in the cup of Christ was clearly an alcoholic wine. If I know that this was the example of my Saviour I am not sure I want to take a chance on anything else. To argue that grape-juice and wine are both fruit of the vine and therefore the same is also suspect. The difference is not just in the alcohol content. There is another transformation that takes place in the fermentation of wine. The life and death of the yeast cells involved in the fermentation makes wine extremely rich in protien. It has a high number of the amino acids essential to life to the extent that a person could live a healthy life on bread and wine alone! Does this add new significance to the elements of the Lord's supper? I don't know for sure but for now that is the way I am going to go. In Christ Tim Sheasby
80	Weekly Communion?	1 Cor 11:25	Tim Sheasby	22476
	Footnotes are the work of men, not inspired words of God. Read them with caution. However, it would seem that the practice of the day was to partake of the Lord's supper once a week. Does this make it less for those who partake of it? Not for me. It is a weekly reminder of what my Saviour did for me. A weekly celebration of my salvation in Christ. Scripture is not specific on this so we only have early church tradition to go on. I'm going to go with that tradition but certainly can not bind that on anyone else.

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