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|Results from: Notes
Author: Sir Pent Ordered by Verse
|361||How to know God just from seeing nature?||Rom 1:20||Sir Pent||22687|
|Finding God in Nature, part 10 ..................
So how do the beliefs of Christianity about God line up with the characteristics that we can learn about god from nature? To discover this, let's compare our own observations about god with what the Bible says.
Nature shows us that god is eternal. Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Nature shows us that god is omnipotent. Jeremiah 32:17 says, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you."
Nature shows us that god is omniscient. Psalms 147:4-5 says, "He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit."
Nature shows us that god values life. Mathew 10:29-31 says, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."
Nature shows us that god loves humanity. 1 John 4:8 says,"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
Nature shows us that god wants to communicate with us. Hebrews 1:1-2 says, "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." In addition, the entire Bible claims to be the message of God to mankind.
It quickly becomes appearant then the the God of the Bible has the exact same characteristics that we know to look for from observing nature. Therefore, the most logical religion to choose to believe is Christianity. To choose to believe in any other religion, or even in no religion at all, is therefore unreasonable.
|362||How to know God just from seeing nature?||Rom 1:20||Sir Pent||22723|
|Finding God in Nature, part 11 (the end) ........
So to wrap up everything, the God of the Bible is the only TRUE god.
The Bible is God's message to mankind, and everything in it is true and authoritative for our lives.
Therefore, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the only way to come to a healthy relationship with God.
Therefore, this is done by confessing our sins, trusting in Jesus to save us from the punishment for them.
Therefore, it is also essential to commit ouselves to God by allowing Jesus to be Lord of our lives, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, to live according to His will.
If you have any questions about any of these points, please either respond to them on this forum, or contact me personally through email. Also, if you have enjoyed reading this and it has been helpful in you own decision-making proccess, or your quest for truth, then I'd appreciate it if you also could let me know. My email address is firstname.lastname@example.org
|363||How to know God just from seeing nature?||Rom 1:20||Sir Pent||26418|
You are correct that it is almost universally accepted in science that everything is in a state of decay.
You also wisely conclude that it implies that things were once in a state of perfection. This is not necessarily the case, but it is more likely than any other assumptions to choose from.
|364||i do believe..but this troubles me||Rom 1:27||Sir Pent||116526|
Hello again my brother in Christ,
Please read my post carefully. I very specifically chose my words when I said that "people are not born in such a way that they are forced to COMMIT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS". (emphasis added this time)
I agree with your "third alternative", but was trying to empasize in my post, the choice between the Biblical understanding and the scientific understanding.
|365||i do believe..but this troubles me||Rom 1:27||Sir Pent||116554|
Thanks for responding Ptgard05,
I never said that science has proven that people are not born with homosexual urges.
You were the one who said that you had found "many medical studies to prove it that homosexuals are born that way", and I said that you were incorrect.
Now you are saying that "the scientific field on this subject is limited and no definite answer has surfaced yet". That is correct, and is what I was trying to communicate to begin with.
So since, science doesn't have a definite answer, why do you question the Bible which does have a definate answer?
|366||i do believe..but this troubles me||Rom 1:27||Sir Pent||116564|
|Referral to another thread...........................................
Hello again Ptgard05,
You seem to be saying that the Bible that people read today can't be trusted to mean what it says. Do you really believe that God allowed His message to humanity to be so corrupted that the only way to understand it is to become fluent in ancient greek and hebrew and obtain copies of the original texts?
This subject has been discussed before, and I would encourage you to type in the number 15780 into the "Quick Search" box at the top right corner of the screen. That post summarizes my thoughts as well as many others on this forum.
You have previously stated that you believe that "the Bible is the ultimate truth". However, that doesn't mean anything if you are at liberty to take a verse that you don't like and say that the words there are wrong. Then YOU become your own ultimate truth.
|367||read last statement||Rom 1:27||Sir Pent||116910|
|My response to your question......................................
Good to see you are still here Ptgard05,
I have participated in autopsies at times during my career, and there was one time where I saw a man who had died of natural causes at an old age (somewhere in the 70's). The amazing thing was that when we looked inside he only had one lung.
He had been relatively healthy all his life, and never reported any problems breathing. He had never had any surgeries to remove anything. It just so happened that he was born with one lung. It did develop to be larger than normal and pushed his heart to the side, but other than that there was nothing wrong.
What I learned from people who were more experienced than I, was that this type of thing was not really uncommon. There are many people walking around with no idea that they are missing an organ, or their organs are reversed (ie. appendix on the left). It turns out that the pictures that you see in your science book are just what things look like in the majority of people.
Therefore, even assuming that it is true that your relative has something different about the bones in his ear, that does not prove anything about his homosexuality. There are no publications in respected scientific journals that support any connection between ear bone configuration and homosexuality.
|368||Not my will?||Rom 5:6||Sir Pent||59436|
|Personal Note .............................
I was unaware of your recent heart problems, and would like to also praise God, who is the "Great Physician", for your healing.
|369||Not my will?||Rom 5:6||Sir Pent||59511|
Thanks you for the welcome back and especially for your empathy in my wife and my loss. Sadly, I had to go back and update my user profile since I was here last to reflect that we have lost one more child. We have really had to depend on the prayer and support of our relatives, friends, and church family during this time. We have both felt that God has used these tragic circumstances to draw us even closer to Himself and to each other. I would not wish this experience on anyone, but God works all things together for good.
|370||When and how EVIL came about?||Rom 5:12||Sir Pent||65751|
|A Different View .............................................
I think the question is flawed to begin with. "Evil" is not actually a thing at all. Therefore it was never created by anyone or anything. Instead what we think of as "Evil" is really nothing more than a perversion of something good. For instance, God created sex as a good thing between a married man and woman. However, when mankind takes that good gift and takes it out of the marriage covenant, then it becomes sin and is viewed as "evil". God created all good things, man has perverted many of them.
|371||the different between old and new||Rom 5:13||Sir Pent||117157|
|Request for clarification..........................................
Welcome to the forum B Hancock,
Could you please state who that phone number is contacting. Since this is your first message on the forum, it is impossible to determine who you are affiliated with.
|372||Is iT possible to live without sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24069|
If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that Christians have the ability to choose to sin. However, as new creations, they also have the ability to choose NOT to sin. Therefore, it is possible for a Christian to live without willfull sin in their life.
I completely agree with that :)
|373||Is iT possible to live without sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24077|
|Contrary View ..................................
I agree that humans are responsible for their own sins, and cannot blaim the devil for "putting us in sin".
I disagree that the passages in the Bible that instruct certain groups of believers to do or refrain from doing certain things means that all of them were guilty of that. It is quite likely that while a large number of them were guilty (thus the instruction), that there were some who did not participate in those sins.
As for whether a person could live a life free from sin (after salvation), some of the reasoning behind this is dependant upon a "free will" perspective. Since you do not have this perspective, it is not reasonable to try to convince you otherwise. I commend your consistency while disagreeing with your conclusions.
|374||Lanny, What is your definition of sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24078|
|Personal Note ....................................
Lanny already gave his definition of sin. It is different than yours, but I don't think it is accurate to call it "weaker".
|375||Lanny, What is your definition of sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24088|
|Examples of accidental disobedience .............
One of the commandments is to not steal. If you buy something at a store, and then clerk gives you a ten dollar bill in change instead of a one, and you walk a way without realizing it then you stole nine dollars from that store. But you didn't know it so it was accidental.
I believe that when you discover what happened that you should take the money back, however, I don't believe that God holds you responsible for that action unless you did it on purpose.
Other examples would include taking home the wrong purse or coat from a place because it looked like yours, or driveing 10 miles over the speed limit because your spedometer is broken, etc.
|376||Is iT possible to live without sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24090|
It appears that there is a confusion here that needs to be cleared up to begin with. I don't believe that Lanny (or anyone else that is supporting the idea of a sinless life) is equating that state with basic Christianity.
It is obvious that there are many Christians (including myself) who continue to sin at times (some Christians even have habitual sins). What we are trying to say is that it is possible for Christians to reach the point where they stop sinning.
As for whether I know anyone who has done this, I'm not sure. I don't follow anyone around constantly, and I can't read their thoughts. And anyone who would be in this category would obviously not go around bragging about it.
But there are several people at my church who I suspect have reached this point, and do not know of any sins that they have committed in word or deed in the last several years. These are older saints who have spent a lifetime of walking with the Lord, and who have completely committed their life to Him.
|377||Is iT possible to live without sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24092|
|Personal Note ....................................
Thanks, my Thanksgiving vacation was one of the best ever. I hope that yours was also blessed!
As for whether it is possible to sin "non-willfully", please see my "examples of accidental disobedience" post. The basic idea is that it is possible to do something that displeases God, or fail to do something that God requires, without planning to do it.
|378||Is iT possible to live without sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24097|
I would like to respond to several of your points. As for Lanny's true meaning, I'll leave that to him to clear up.
As for Christ being the only person who lived a completely sinless life, I completely agree with you. Just because I believe that a person can stop sinning does not at all mean that I think that they never sinned before that. All have sinned at some point in their life, and therefore all need Christ's forgiveness.
As for our ability to stop sinning cheapening Christs sinless life, I disagree with the statement and the implication. I disagree with the statement because once again Christ is the only person to live His ENTIRE life without sin, and that can't be cheapened by anything. I disagree with the implication that we can't start living lives without sin because Christ is so different than us. We have the same Spirit in us that was in Christ Jesus, and Jesus said that we would do greater things than Him.
Finally, as for "no such thing as unknown sins", what would you call the examples that I gave? The person is definately committing an act that is against the known will of God, however, they are not doing it intentionally. What do you call that?
|379||Lanny, What is your definition of sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24109|
It seems to me that your reasoning is circular. You say that there is no sin that is unintentional because sin is disobedience and there is no disobedience that is unitentional. If you're going to define the words in that way then that's fine, but it isn't how they are normally defined.
Disobedience is defined by the dictionary to mean: refusal or neglect to obey. I would agree that "refusal" requires intent. However, neglect does not. A person who speeds due to an inaccurate spedometer neglected to obey the law, but was unaware of it. This would still be classified as disobedience.
However, that is just a argument of semantics. I think that a more important issue with your post was your implication that it is impossible for a Christian today (who is not famous) to be a closer follower of Christ's example than a famous Christian of yesteryear (Paul, Luther, Calvin, etc.)
This just doesn't make sense. We would all agree that there has been a progressive revelation of God throughout time. We would all assume that Elijah had a better picture of Christ to follow than Adam, and that the apostle John had a better picture of Christ to follow than Elijah.
It is also true that Christians today have resources and materials to complete their picture of Christ that were not available in Augustine's day. And Luther may have been close in His relationship to God, but so are people today. Calvin may have been smart, but not smarter than all the Christians alive today.
My point is that we have everything that they had, and more. Therefore, it is not impossible that an 85 year old saint that quitely follows God in her local community could actually lead a more Christ-like life than one of the famous "church fathers".
|380||Lanny, What is your definition of sin?||Rom 6:2||Sir Pent||24204|
|Contrary View .................................
In this post, I'll continue the normal pattern of thread debate, that we always seem to use on this forum. I will pick specific things out of your post that I disagree with and try to prove them wrong. However, I will also post a second response seperately that will try a different approach. In that post, I'll try to get to the heart of the issue and deal with it. Let me know which one you think is better.
Your last post said that you didn't believe that "God would consider it to be sin of any kind if we unknowingly" did something wrong. However, that happened in the Bible. When Joshua was leading the Israelites in their battles against the Caananites, everything went great against the city of Jericho. But then the next battle was totally different. The Israelites were defeated, and many of them were killed. It turned out that the reason was because one guy in the army had taken some loot from the previous battle against God's command. After that was taken care of, everything went great for the rest of the campaign. The point is that Joshua did not know that the sin had been committed by one of his men. But God still held His people responsible. Many Israelites lost their lives because of a sin they weren't even aware of.
Your last post said that "Scripture is absolutely sufficient for all our sanctification by the Spirit of God". I completely agree. However, you also said that "We have no more spiritual resources that make us superior in ability to lead a Christlike life than Augustine". We may or may not have superior personal ability, but we deffinately have superior opportunity. Just because the Bible is "sufficient" for salvation and spiritual growth doesn't mean that it is the only "resource" that can assist in that process. Many people have come to a relationship with God through such unispired "resources" as The Jesus Film, C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, Sheldon's In His Steps, Bunyon's Pilgrim's Progress, etc. And the myriads of commentaries that have been written throughout the ages enable us to quickly learn many different truths from passages of scripture that probably took the writers years to learn on their own.
Your last post said that because I believe that Christians could potentially fullfill the Biblical command to be perfect after the example of our Heavenly Father, that I have "a completely deficient grasp of the utter holiness of the conduct of God the Son". I will admit that I do not fully grasp the holiness of God or of Jesus, however, I doubt that you would claim to totally grasp it either. I would also disagree that the limited grasp that I do have of God's holiness is "completely deficient", or even much more incomplete than your grasp is. However, the Bible has lots of instruction on what God requries of us (ie. do justly, love mercy, walk humbly, ten commandments, love God, love our neighbor etc.), and I know people who have not broken any of these requirements recently (to my knowledge).
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