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|21||What is the time of the tribulation?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72229|
|Thx, Brad. I, too, take II Tim. 2:15 very seriously (as well as Isa. 8:20 and 28:10).
I'm glad this forum isn't just another way for some church to further their own agendas. If that were the case I would find a different forum/website (group) to study the Bible with.
I believe if we let the Bible tell us what it means (especially some more difficult, hard to understand texts) then we will all, eventually, come to the same truths together.
Personally I prefer the KJV of the Bible. I find it is a more accurate translation from the originals than other translations. Still, though, I find it necessary to research the exact literal translation from the originals just in case those that interpreted the KJV might have made some mistakes. I have found a few (but not many) and sometimes this research even shows a deeper meaning to the text than I might have previously thought.
Anyway (so far LOL) I like this forum and enjoy having Bible discussions with anyone. Especially if I end up going back to the Bible and looking stuff up and cross referencng them and...LOL.
If I seem to be shory tempered, or abrubt or anything in some things I say please forgive me. I don't mean to be that way. We all have personallity flaws that we must work on. Mine is lack of patience and short tempered nature. I also have trouble being tolerant of ignorance. Please forgive me ahead of time if I offend anyone. I'm still wotking on these problems myself. And don't really mean to be so blunt at times.
|22||what was the org. day of the sabbath||Matt 28:1||David_24597||72226|
|Yes, the original Sabbath of the fourth Commandment was Saturday. It was changed by the Roman Cahtolic Church.
Note the following quotes from the Catholic Church itself:
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
"Answer: Had she not such power she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her: she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." A Doctrinal Catechism, by Rev. Stephen Keenan, page 174.
"Question: What day was the Sabbath?
"Question: Who changed it?
"Answer: The Catholic Church." From Rev. Dr. Butler's Catechism, Revised, Page 57.
"It was the Catholic Church which, ...has transformed this rest to the Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) Church." Plain Talk About the Protestants of Today, by Msgr. Segur, Page 213.
The first Sunday law ever made was that issued by the Emperor Constantine, March 7, A.D. 321, which reads as follows:
"Let all judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun; but let those who are situated in the country, freely and at full liberty, attend to the business of agriculture; because it often happens that no other day is so fit for sowing corn and planting vines; lest the critical moment being let slip men should lose the commodities granted by heaven." Corpus Juris Civilis Cod.: lib. 3, tit.12,3
So, far a little while, the christians of the time were keeping BOTH Saturaday AND Sunday as days of rest.
In A.D. 364 the council of Laodicea forbade the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath:
"Sabbath, Change of, Action of Council of Laodicea on A.D. 364 – Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday (Sabbath, original) but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ." A History of the Councils of the Church: from the Original Documents, Rt. Rev. Charles Joseph Hefele, D.D., Bishop of Rottenburg, book 6, sec. 93, canon 29 (Vol. II, page 316). Edinburgh: T and T Clark, 1896.
From this point on the Sabbath of the fourth Commandment was forsaken in favor of the pagan sabbath on Sunday.
|23||What is the time of the tribulation?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72213|
|OK Pemican, I see where you're coming from now. Have you researched Dan. 9:24-27 in the original languages?
Anyway, if you read the text, you can see that it doesn't mention anywhere in there that the last week of the 70 weeks are divided from the first 69 weeks by another time period. Rather consider what is to occur throughout the entire 70 weeks in verse 24. One of them is "to make reconciliation for iniquity". This could only be the death of Jesus on the cross.
Now consider verse 25. The starting point of the 70 weeks is given here. The "command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem". There are three recorded decrees for this. The last one (and the one that actually prompted the Jewish migration to Jerusalem with the intent to rebuild it) is recorded in Ezra 6:3 and dates to the year 457 B.C. Seven weeks later (49 years) the streets and walls of Jerusalem were built (408 B.C. - look it up). 62 weeks after that (434 years) would bring us to the Messiah - the "Annointed One" (I'm still in verse 25). This brings us to the year 27 A.D. (remember there was no zero year - 1 A.D. came after 1 B.C.). It's pretty much well know that Jesus was born late Sept./early Oct. in the year 4 B.C. At this time the old Levitical laws were still in effect and a Priest or Prophet would begin His public ministry when He turned 30 years of age. Jesus was baptised/annointed when he turned 30 on the year 27 A.D. (coincidence?). The first 69 weeks of the 70 is now over.
Now go back to verse 24 and (knowing that Jesus had not yet been crucified in 27 A.D.) that the "reconciliation for iniquity" had not yet happened. Yet it belongs in the 70 weeks.
Now consider verse 27. "In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The "sacrifice and oblation" ("zebach minchah" in Hebrew) refer to the sacrificial services of the old Levitical laws (Look it up). Jesus' public ministery lasted for 3 1/2 years at the end of which He was crucified and the Levitical sacrificial system ended (another coincidence?).
Also consider the "overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate" is NOT the "abomination of desolation" mentioned in others parts of Daniel or in Matt. 24. From the way it is worded (even in the Hebrew - "shiqquwts shamen") it shows a "desolation (or destruction) of abomination". This also happened at Jesus' crucifixion (the Jewish sacrificial system had become corrupted and WAS an abomination at this time). Jesus' death on the cross destroyed it (made it desolate).
No offense to anyone, but I'm starting to wonder if this forum is not church affiliated in any way. I thought at first that it might be a forum or group of people interested in studying the Bible, but I'm seeing a lot of indoctrinated beliefs in here. Not just this thread but in other threads on the forum as well. I've only been here a short time but have seen several instances where some of the plain techings of the Bible are being discarded in favor of indoctrinated beliefs. Has anybody else experienced this also?
|24||Do we go directly to Heaven?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72187|
|EdB, read what the OT prophets have said concerning the state of the dead. Then tell me what the parable of the rich man and Lazarus means. Until then I agree that there is no reason for us to continue this discussion.|
|25||What is the time of the tribulation?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72184|
|Again, Pemican, I ask you to supply your references for these things you are saying.|
|26||Do we go directly to Heaven?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72182|
|I'm sorry. I thought you would be interested in an intellectual study of what the Bible might say about the state of the dead. If you want to insult me and be sarcastic and ignore the texts I supplied for you then that's up to you. I wish you well anyway. God bless and I hope you will come to the truth soon. You won't listen to me about it so I guess this discussion is at an end. Sorry.
And no, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. I believe that Jesus is my Creator (not a created being).
|27||Before or after the return of Christ?||1 Thess 4:16||David_24597||72180|
|Pemican, please show me some specific references for your post. Where does is say this "millenial reign" will take place on the earth? Don't the saved meet Jesus "in the air" when He comes? I Thess 4:16-18. The only reference I can find about Jesus actually touching the earth is in Zech. 14:4-13 where it also mentions the final destruction of the wicked. This would HAVE to happen at the "second" resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years Joel 3:9-16 with Rev. 20. Please supply references with your posts. Thx.|
|28||Before or after the return of Christ?||1 Thess 4:16||David_24597||72176|
|Prayon, where does the Bible teach a "seven year" tribulation? Rev. 18:8 coupled with Isa. 34:8 and 63:4 shows it only one year.
Also what Bible references do you have for this "rapture"? You do know of course that I Thess. 4:16-18 shows that the saints are resurrected at the "last trump"? Wouldn't this be the "first resurrection" of Rev. 20 at the beginning of the 1,000 years?
|29||Do we go directly to Heaven?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72175|
|EdB, I got that information about crucifixion from a website. I don't remember which one though. They did a study where some students agreed to be tied to crosses in the same position that Jesus was crucufied. No problems with breathing. They began to have problems with their internal organs though. Do a google search if you're really interested in knowing more about this.
Anybody who reads John 20:17 can see that you are attempting to rewrite scripture here. Read it for yourself. Then read Luke 24:38-39 and see that they COULD touch Him then. If Mary couldn't touch Him right after His resurrection because He had not yet presented Himself to the Father yet later on that same day His disciples COULD touch Him, then He must have gone to heaven in between the two times that Mary saw Him and His disciples saw Him. Then 40 days later He went to heaven in front of everybody. Then there was the time he saw Paul on the road to Damascus. There were obvoiusly times when He was coming and going between earth and heaven. This teaching in John 20:17 does in no way deny His ascension 40 days later.
I did not say that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was not true. I said it was a parable and not to be taken literally. Let's consider your version of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus:
1) I assume that you believe that they were "disembodied" spirits or souls? What effect would a hot dry place have on such a being? For that matter what would a couple drops of water do to this creature? In order for these physical things to have any effect of the rich man, he would have to be "in the flesh". He could not be a "disembodied" spirit/soul.
2) Consider the other texts I supplied in the above 2 part post. Specifically Ps. 146:3 and Eccl. 9:5-6. The thoughts and emotions of the dead are "perished". How could the dead have a conversation between themselves if they are unable to think or feel?
3) If the saved in "Abraham's bosom" all accompanied Jesus at His ascension then why is King David still in his grave and has not ascended into heaven? Acts 2:29 and 34
Anyway, why don't you read my post up there and check out the references I supplied on what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead. You will see that they don't match up with your version of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
And, also, I havent't taken II Cor. 5:8 out of context. Read verses 6, 9, 10, 15 and 16. He is talking about the lusts of the flesh here. Can't you see that? Also compare verse 17 here with 7:1. There are plenty of Bible verse that teach that to follow our fleshly desires will seperate us from God.
Do yourself a favor Ed. Do a little research into every verse you can find in the Bible concerning the state of the dead. There is quite a thread to be found there if you're interested. Don't let your indoctrinated beliefs influence your thinking. Let the Bible teach you what it is really saying. I can tell that you haven't really done that. I urge you to try it for once. It may take you a few days to look into, but I think you will benefit from it. If you have a good concordance, check out the words sleep/sleepeth, awake/awaken/awakened, dead/death, grave, resurrection, etc. I think you will be surprised what you will find.
|30||Finding 'Act as though you have faith'||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72106|
|The codes for unsealing the prophecies are all throughout the Bible. The catch is, "they are spiritually discerned". By mocking and making fun of things that go against your own belief you show me that you will never understand this. If you let the Bible interpret itself you would understand the prophecies of Revelation.
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." All souls die. Only those that are saved have any hope in taking part in the resurrection of life.
And I never said the Ten Commandments are "Ten Warnings" where do you get that from?
|31||Must Christ have had a human nature?||Phil 2:7||David_24597||72093|
|Of course Jesus was completely and totaly human. How else could His sacrifice have been of any benefit to the human race? Rom. 5:12 and 17 kinda hints at this. Jesus also didn't even have any knowledge of being our Creator when He was born. He had to "learn" Isa. 7:15-16 and Luke 2:40 and 52. (Don't get me wrong John chapter 1 shows that Jesus created all things. He is our Creator.) He also proved to all the universe that God's law CAN be kept. Satan had cast doubt on God's word and Jesus proved that God was right and Satan was wrong. Had Jesus ever commited even one sin His death could not have been for our sins but for His own sin and everyone would know that it was impossible to obey what God asks. Jesus did not just save humans. He saved all of God's creations from anarchy and satanic rule. Sorry, I can't think of any references for this right now. Just my humble opinion. But Heb. 1:2 and 11:3 mention the existence of other worlds besides our own. Surely they were affected by Satan's rebellion (though our own world is the only one that has fallen).|
|32||Finding 'Act as though you have faith'||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72083|
|Aften1, the prophecy in Dan. 12:9 states that these things would be sealed "until the time of the end". And Rev. 10 shows that the time has come for these things to be unsealed. The book in the angel's hand is "open" (unsealed) and it is a book of prophecy (verse 11). Ezekiel was given the gift of prophecy the same way as described here in Rev. 10 (Ezek. 2:9 through 3:4). If you let the Bible interpret itself these things mentioned in the prophecies are easy to understand.
You asked, "How can you reform Christianity
when you do not know the mind or will of God on
these matters?" The answer is simple. If the Bible warns of things that people are doing wrong then it is the duty of God's people to warn them. Isa. 58:1 and Ezek. 33:7-9 are but two examples.
|33||Do we go directly to Heaven?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72081|
You might be interested to know that this "death by asphyxiation" would only occur should the victim be crucified with his arms suspended ABOVE his head, not (as in Jesus' case) with the arms stretched out on either side. It could take up to three days for a person to die with the arms outstretched on either side. Death in this manner is the result of the victim going into hypovolemic shock. Death is this manner can be in, a manner of hours, or days depending on the manner in which the victim is affixed to the cross. If the victim is crucified with a small seat, a sedile, affixed to the uptight for minimum support in the region of the buttocks, death can be prolonged for hours and days. If you will recall, Pilate was surprised that Jesus was already dead after just six hours. He had to send someone to go check to make sure. (Mark 15:43-45)
Second John 20:17 in the Greek is "haptomai mou me" (touch/cling to, me/mine, not/that not) so it HAS been (the KJV) translated accurately enough. And the word "paradise" in Luke 23:43 is "paradeisos" Strong's #3857 and DOES denote the place where God dwells. (Rev. 2:7) It is another word for heaven.
Third "Hades" denotes "the grave", the place where the dead go. It does NOT mean some underground place where living souls are. And the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was just that (a parable). It was not a literal account of things. Consider that a man's arm could not literally stretch across this great gulf. Much less would a couple of drops of water ease the suffering of anyone in a place of perpetual burning. Jesus said this story to show that those that live a life of pleasure (at the expense of others) in this life would end up suffering the final penaly for sin. While those that lived a life of suffering (for Jesus' sake) would enherit eternal life.
And finally II Cor. 5:8 I take to mean "absent from the fleshly desires of the body". Note verse 7 "we walk by faith not by sight" (these things are spiritualy discerned) and verse 10 shows that he is talking about "things done in the body". He is not talking about being physiacally dead. Another verse in Col. 2:5 shows that "absent in the flesh yet am present in the spirit" simply means that his physical presence is not there with them at that time yet his (Paul's) spirit is. Much in the way that you might think about someone (wishing you were with them) yet you are physically apart from them.
|34||Finding 'Act as though you have faith'||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||72051|
|Sorry I didn't supply the text for that. It's Eph. 2:5-9. Also Rom. 3:24 and 11:5-6 just to name a couple more. There are others as well.
If God was not a God of love we would have no hope for eternal life. It's the sacrifice of Jesus that has saved us. John 3:16 and Rom. 6:23 "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Rom. 3:23
Faith and works are just two sides of the same coin. We don't do the good works to GET saved. We do the good works BECAUSE we are ALREADY saved. James chapter 2 speaks of this. And also shows that we show the world that we are saved through our works. Naturally the opposite would apply also. Those that refuse to do the good works of faith are showing the world that they ARE NOT saved.
|35||Finding 'Act as though you have faith'||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||71938|
|Some ways the Bible tells us to increase our faith:
1) Ask of God and he will give you more faith. Mark 9:17-24 is a good example. So number 2
2) Faith can be increased by seeing miracles done. Acts 2 is another good example.
3) Faith increases when it is tried in the furnace of affliction I Peter 1:7. Job 23:10, Dan. 12:10 and Rev. 3:18 hints of this as well. A word of warning here though LOL. If one ask Gods for faith (number 1 above) God may just increase your faith by allowing trials and tribulations to fall upon you in answer to your prayer.
4) Then there's James 2:22 which shows that faith is made perfect through works. As in the case of Abraham. His faith in the coming Messiah was increased when he tried to obey God's command to sacrifice his son for a burnt offering. Now I'm not saying we should try to sacrifice our children to follow Abraham's example LOL. We are under the New Covenant of grace not the Old Covenant of the Mosaic Laws. But if the Bible (especially the New Testament) tells us to do something, we should do it (and our faith will increase because of our obedience).
5) And finally, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10:17
Since we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, surely every avenue that is opened to us to increase our faith should be explored?
|36||God/Man, Man/Man Relationships||Gen 3:8||David_24597||71935|
|I would agree with Lionstrong. I've got a list somewhere on this computer showing all ten of the Ten Commandments upheld in the New Testament. Shows me that the Ten Commandment Law is still binding on God's people even in this day and age. I'll find it and copy/paste it on this forum if anyone is interested. It also shows knowledge of the Ten Commandments were known BEFORE they were given in written form on Mt. Sinai.|
|37||Not praying for one's self?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||71820|
|I admit that, on the surface, Jabez' prayer sounds like the type that James 4 is talking about. But if it was God would not have answered it. Rather I would "guess" that Jabez was the same type of person that this lady in Miss. was that you mentioned. The text in I Chron. does mention that Jabez was more "honorable" that his brethren.|
|38||Why does God bet with Satan in Job?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||71816|
|Well, this was obviously a test of Abraham's faith. Did God need any proof of his faithfulness? On the other hand God also revealed His plan for mankind's salvation here. He put Abraham in a position that showed Abraham what it was like to give up his son for a sacrifice for sin. Just because there is no Biblical record of Satan's hand in this (like there is in Job) doesn't mean there wasn't a similar conflict between God and Satan concerning Abraham. The book of Job shows how God "brags" about His faithful people to everyone. Naturally I think he would have done the same with Abraham and Satan would have taken offence with this. I know there is no Biblical evidence of this about Abraham. I was using Job as an example.|
|39||Who can Baptize you? Does it matter?||Rom 10:9||David_24597||71801|
|Actually, to me, baptism is an outward showing to all that you have accepted your salvation. It doesn't matter to me what denomination someone is baptised in. I agree though that it should be by immersion, not a little sprinkle LOL. Also it is an adult decision, not something that a baby could consent to.|
|40||Why does God bet with Satan in Job?||Bible general Archive 1||David_24597||71788|
|I would agree with that One. There are many instances in the Bible that have no other explanation other than that God allows certain trials to happen to us to help us to become better and stronger when it is over. If you break a leg doesn't it grow back stronger than before? Why was Jacob commanded to go into Egypt? He knew about the 400 years of slavery that would happen there yet God told him to "fear not". That God would make a great nation of his descendants in Egypt. Look what the children of Israel had to endure from the Exodus to the Promised Land. 40 years of wandering in the wilderness plus the people that they had to kick out of Palestine once they got there. There were giants in the land yet (from reading about King David and his "strong men") one man could overthrow an entire army of these giants. I can think of no other reason why God allowed the Egyptian captivity other than to make the nation of Israel a powerful group of people. I could go on and on about this LOL (like why was Satan allowed to exist in the first place other than to assist God's plan (unwittingly of course LOL) to create a race of people that, throughout eternity, would grow more and more like God and be closer to Him than any other being that God had created before could become.) There are references to "other worlds" that God created. I think in Heb. and Col.
Anyway, ours is the only world that has fallen. And to survive it becomes necessary to be closer to God than any "unfallen" creature could be. Plus, knowledge is power. Before Satan no one knew what sin or evil was. Those that survive this world WILL. They have (of course) CHOSEN to reject evil, knowing it for what it is. This gives a knowledge (power) above that of any unfallen being (save for God of course). But I better stop before I ramble on too much LOL.
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