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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: srchng Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66748 | ||
justme, I'm truly sorry you feel so badly about all this. I posed real questions based on real concerns in real life. I don't know if you're aware of the kinds of ideas floating around among those who are ostensibly Christians, but these are not pretend questions. I want to be better equipped to address these questions from a point of understanding. The issue of submission in marriage is important, and often a point of serious conflict. How God means for it to work in the worst circumstances is a lot harder to grasp and implement than how in the best or the normal circumstances. I didn't make anything up. These were my questions, my concerns, and my thoughts. I've seen and known abuse. I hate it. I want scriptural answers to it. And I want to understand those answers. The "meat" I found was, as I mentioned, primarily in your third paragraph. It "fed" me. It gave me what I needed, or at least some of it. I don't know how many more abusive situations I will encounter, but you've helped me see more than I saw before, and that might save someone's life. That's not how I understand a wild goose chase. No fun and games here either. Again, thank you. -srchng |
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2 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66662 | ||
Meredith, Thank you for your help. You've cited broader principles from Scripture that I can understand. This gives me good stuff to chew on. Sometimes we (I) seem to have blinders on, and need help to see the bigger picture. Thank you, -srchng |
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3 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66661 | ||
justme, Thanks for your note, and your concern. But remember, the times given as to when posts were submitted are Eastern Time. And I really didn't (and couldn't) spend nine hours a day at this. And I never said I had a husband. I'm looking for scriptural answers that I haven't found on my own. I most appreciate your third paragraph. Finally some meat! I think I'll keep an eye on your posts. I'm impressed. Thank you, -srchng |
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4 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66659 | ||
I agree that the Bible shows no hatred toward women. I never thought it did. I think another person's post alluded to that. I also agree that a husband's role is as you say. My questions are not about the husband's role, but the wife's. When a wife finds herself trying to follow scripture in an abusive marriage relationship, how can she submit to her husband "as unto the Lord?" Is she relieved of this responsibility in the event of abuse? What if it's not physical abuse? When does her right to defy or leave her husband begin, and why (scripturally)? I don't see it. Do you? Does the Bible say when her right to self-interest begins? -srchng |
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5 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66654 | ||
charis, Thank you. This sounds like good reasoning. I will poder it. No, fortunately I've never had to counsel a wife in a physically abusive relationship. But I suppose my first inclination would be to find a safe place for her and then get her husband corrected . . . maybe have him dragged naked through a briar patch. I would never advocate any kind of spousal abuse, physical or other. I wonder if, since it truly seems insane to think that a wife should tolerate physical abuse, (because her husband has already left her, or nullified the marriage)does it then follow that she should not tolerate relational neglegence, distance, etc. because he's already "left her," and is not fulfilling his husbandly duties. I agree that it seems a line should exist. but I'm not eager to draw it arbitrarily. That seems arrogant. I want to know if God said where the line is. And if wives are submitting to their husbands "as unto the Lord" when they leave for reasons of abuse (physical or other,) then doesn't the same reasoning dictate that we all should leave Christ when we feel He's not meeting our physical needs, protecting us from physical pain or threat of death, or generally taking care of us like a good husband? I don't think simple logic or rational argumentation can get us where we need to go here. It seems there must be something more. The trouble I see is that some women marry violent or abusive men, and scripture isn't clear to me on what those wives should do about it. At the turn of every page, it seems that the Bible is silent on this. I just want to see what I'm missing. I want the direction my questions point in to be proven wrong. But I want scripture, not just the cultural/political correctness I might otherwise lean toward. Thanks -srchng |
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6 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66614 | ||
Reformer Joe, Your answer seems to me to be more or less scripturally sound, though you cited or alluded to no scripure to help others see your source, and is applicable for the man who mistreats his wife, but doesn't quite address the intended questions. I'm not as good at this as some, so please be patient with me. Would you be so good as to see my note to retxar, just after retxar's answer to me? It might help you to understand what I'm asking. Thank you, -srchng |
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7 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66612 | ||
retxar, I'm afraid I wasn't as clear as I thought I was, or that perhaps you misread me. In reality, I never stated a position. Rather, I asked a set of questions in the context of citations of "models" of submission to the Lord that leave one marvelling. I had no "position" to justify with the scripture I gave. I certainly didn't "insist that a wife submitting to a physically abusive husband in a life threatening relationship is God's intent and meaning." What I actually did was ask the question. And I asked whether wives are called to a lower standard of submission to their husbands than the standard of submission to the Lord that men are called to, with a request for correction if I'd misunderstood submission. But I didn't ask it that succinctly. I also didn't assert, (as you said that scripture doesn't suggest or imply,) that abuse is the “tough pill women are required to swallow.” If you re-read, you'll see that I said that submission to anyone, even God, is a tough pill for *anyone* (not just women) to swallow, due to what we call "sin nature." And no insult toward anyone was intended. You may be right that enduring abuse, pain, injury, and death, is not “as unto the Lord”, but rather, is as unto the devil. But I wouldn't want to say that to John the Baptist, Job, Jesus, the martyrs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum (or so.) I am looking for scriptural principles that can be applied to real life, even if I don't like the immediate ramifications. I'm looking for truth that supercedes temporal convenience, comfort, and even safety. I believe there's more to Life than just this life, so I need to be or *become* willing to spend this life wisely, in light of scripture. The questions at hand are these: 1) If it wasn't submission to the Lord when Job said, "Though He slay me, yet will I serve Him," (or when others surrendered even their very lives to Him,) then what is submission "unto the Lord?" 2) Do wives have a lesser calling to submission to the Lord than men (or husbands, specifically) so that they are called on to submit to their husbands less than these scriptural (and martyr-type) models of submission submitted to the Lord? (Assuming that these are God-ordained models of submission. If they aren't , please explain why, scripturally. I'd like to get your perspective.) 3) If women are called to a lesser submission "to the Lord" than men are called to, then why? 4) Are women (wives, specifically) called to submit to the Lord according to these "models," the same as men are called to submit to the Lord? 5) If women are called to submit to their husbands, "as unto the Lord," according to these scriptural "models" of submission to the Lord, then how does that exclude the painful, injurious, or deadly stuff? And the last plea I made was, "Please help me see where scripture relieves a wife of the resposibility under God to submit to her husband because it pains, injures, or even kills her." As for rightly dividing the Word of Truth, that's what I was asking for help with. Can you help? Thanks in advance, -srchng |
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8 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66471 | ||
Thnk you so much for your response. I would naturally agree with you. But, as I implied, I'm trying to get past thinking "naturally." And I'm really hungry for scripture to help me resolve this question. Do you know any scripture that would support the views you expressed, (that I would naturally tend to agree with?) I'm specifically looking for scripture that relieves a wife of the resposibility under God to submit to her husband because it pains, injures, or even kills her. If a married woman gets saved, and her abusive husband remains unsaved, leaving him seems to fly in the face of scripture. (1 Cor 7:13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. (1 Pet 3:1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,) Is there anything I'm missing? Thanks, -srchng |
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9 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66451 | ||
Maybe you all can help me with this. If I remember correctly, Job "submitted" to the Lord, saying, "Though He slay me, yet will I serve Him." If he didn't say that, please correct me (or tell me who did say it.) Or, if that wasn't submission, what is submission? It seems that Jesus also gives a model for submitting even to the point of death. Isn't that what the martyrs did too? Isn't that the scriptural model of submission to God? Then there's Daniel and his buddies, perhaps with a different dynamic. If this is proper submission to the Lord, then how can wives submit to their husbands "as unto the Lord?" (Eph. 5:22) Do wives have a lesser calling to submission to the Lord than men (or husbands, specifically) so that they are called on to submit to their husbands less than these scriptural (and martyr-type) models of submission submitted to the Lord? Did God design women (wives, specifically) to be less capable of the strengths or qualities necessary for submission than Job, Jesus, and the martyrs (some of whom were women?) Submission to anyone, even God, is a tough pill for any person to swallow, due to what we refer to as "sin nature." Submission to the point of pain or injury, let alone death, is naturally untenable. Are we called to live "naturally?" Please help me see where scripture relieves a wife of the resposibility under God to submit to her husband because it pains, injures, or even kills her. Isn't a husband (or wife) to submit to the Lord that way? I'd really like to understand this. Please help if you can. Thanks, -srchng |
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10 | Woman's sin worse than man's? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65638 | ||
I think this post goes a long way toward refuting Rabbi Mark's notion that men are *logically superior* to women. :-) Or do I assume too much? You are a woman aren't you, Debbie? -srchng |
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11 | Is reverence feasible? Always? . . . | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65623 | ||
I'm but a fool. I know little. I obey poorly. I'm no prophet, and my parents weren't either. I'm just looking for wisdom. Thanks for the validation, -srchng |
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12 | Is reverence feasible? Always? . . . | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65622 | ||
I'm but a fool. I know little. I obey poorly. I'm no prophet, and my parents weren't either. I'm just looking for wisdom. Thanks for the validation, -srchng |
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13 | Is reverence feasible? Always? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65621 | ||
Sebkin, Please be careful. I am hurt and need extra mercy. mommapbs may be in the same boat with the rest of "us." I appreciate your faithfulness to the intent of the Word. Please help us to see its application. We will hear you more readily if you speak to us with explicit compassion in your authority. Thanks, -srchng |
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14 | Is reverence feasible? Always? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65617 | ||
Mommapbs: I wish I could give you a sense of my appreciation for you. I find myself catching my breath as I read your post. Please forgive us. We have not been serving Christ by serving you, at least not in a way that worked. As for me, I know that God invented you, and He's thrilled with who He made. However hurt, sinful, or whatever condition you may be in with the rest of us, He not only has, but IS the answer. . . the all-powerful answer who loves us to death - and back again. I'm sorry. Please forgive me for my insensitivity. -srchng |
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15 | Mutually submissive? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65614 | ||
Tim, I just asked God for overwhelming grace and peace to you, in the sense that it's meant scripturally, whatever that is. . . He knows. I'm glad you posted this. Would you help me see the part in Ephesians that teaches mutual submission? I've heard this referred to before, but have only found mutual submission instructed among believers in general, as contrasted with intra-marital submission. (The submit to one another stuff seemed to me to speak to entire groups - of the congregational sort.) Certainly a husband ought to submit to the godly wisdom his wife presents just as quickly as he would to that of any other believer, but I wonder if there's a difference in the kind of - or reason for - submission since neither Paul nor Peter wrote anything *specifically* to husbands and wives instructing mutual submission - as far as I know. If I've not read carefully enough, please help me see what I've missed. Also, that *helpmeet/corresponding power* bit is a gem. It's always good to get further insight as to original language and its intent. I wonder if you meant "Biblically, all our relationships should evidence a self-sacrificing love that seeks the best for others rather than ourselves" to sound like edging toward egalitarianism, or if that is your position in full. For that matter, I'm not absolutely sure precisely how egalitarianism would be defined, or how many permutations there might be ( or even whether I spelled it right.) I suppose my question on that is: Is there a God-ordained hierarchy in marriage, and if so, how is it worked out in the kind of obedience to Jesus that simply rocks the world to His glory? I'm on something of a quest for understanding of this issue which is so very important and often volatile. People have strong feelings about it, and understandably so. This issue addresses the relationship with the single most awe inspiring potential and ramifications apart from our relationship with Christ. (And perhaps even eternal potential and ramifications, in the sense of bringing children into the world in God's ordained plan - or His prescribed way of doing things, as well as other things a married coulple can cause or do in obedience to Christ.) And (in a way that looks sort of tragic/comic,) it often starts to look like a power struggle, or an attempt to interpret God's word in a way that means "I'm one-up" or "I don't have to . . " Either way, it's self-assertion rather than Christ-assertion. It looks so stupid to me when I describe it, that I feel like mocking it. But I know I'm as prone to self-assertion as anyone else. Have you ever been in an ostensibly Christian home and heard the husband scream an order at his wife to "submit" and call har a bad name? This is the kind of ridiculousness I want to learn how not only to avoid, but perhaps even help resolve. I want to understand scriptural principles and analogies that can be applied to real-life marital situations. |
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16 | Either / or? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65569 | ||
Well, there's the rub. It's difficult to come up with a specific and real example of this idea I'm trying to explain when I'm not absolutely sure I understand it completely. I don't know if I've ever seen the thing I'm talking about so I can only get as "real" as a hypothetical scenario. But I'll try to at least make it specific. Let's say, for example, that a husband has interests that are *natural* or *human* or *temporal* and that there is nothing inherently sinful about any of these interests. Some of these interests could be hobbies, sports, political activity, volunteer work, or any number of other things a husband could be interested in for more selfish or less selfish reasons, but not central to the marriage relationship. To make it as "real" as I know how to, let's say volunteer work for a Christian charity and fishing are two serious interests this husband has. There is nothing inherently wrong or sinful about either of these things, but his wife has had a rotten week, has been falsely accused of something at work, feels really guilty because she didn't get in trouble at work for something she really did wrong, and snapped at the kids for arguing for a second about some small thing because she has horrible cramps, and she didn't pay the bills like she said she would, so she's all twisted up inside and feeling like a failure and like everything's completely out of control and really just wants a warm hug and a nice, long cuddle and some hot tea. Isn't it a relatively small sacrifice for the husband to lay aside the volunteer work tonight and the fishing tomorrow and sacrifice that time in an investment in his wife. Even if he doesn't give her the hug, cuddle, and tea, just the way she wishes, doesn't Christ's pattern teach a husband to lay down his life for her in her need? Maybe he has something for her that's much more important than hugs, cuddles and tea. He is God's provision for her in the marriage relationship in a way that I'm trying to get a handle on, but isn't it at least about this kind of sacrifice? |
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17 | Either / or? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65546 | ||
Dear Sebkin, I knew that was a crude represntation of what I meant when I wrote it. Please forgive me for not being more clear. I only meant that one little aspect of the sacrifice Jesus made (which husbands in general may do well to identify with) was giving up natural self preservation and self interest in the *human* or *temporal* or *natural* sense. Certainly Jesus laying aside or sacrificing these things was a small thing reative to the benefit of the outcome of such investment or faithfulness. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. On the contrary, isn't it also a small thing for a husband to lay aside his *human* or *temporal* or *natural* interests reative to the benefit of the outcome of such investment or faithfulness, both for himself and his wife? Isn't the husband/wife relationship that deeply analogous to the Christ/church relationship? Do you see what I mean? |
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18 | Is reverence feasible? Always? . . . | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65542 | ||
Dear mommapbs, I can't see that it's clear in Gen 3:6 whether Adam was right there or not during Eve's temptation and sin. What is clear is that he kept neither her nor himself from transgression. You make a good point about perfect love casting out fear. I wonder, though, why wives are instructed to *fear* or *reverence* their own husbands. Along the same lines, it seems that either a wife or a husband doing what scripture prescribes would make the other's obedience to these instructions pretty much a cinch. Maybe that's part of the beauty of this - that none of us will do it perfectly all the time, but following the scriptural guide for our own end of the relationship makes it easier for the other to give to us what he/she ought to (what we want.) For the record, I agree that Rabbi Mark's physical, logical, emotional, *spiritual* superiority issue seems to go over the edge, yet there seems to be something about a husband's superiority, of whatever kind (I wonder if it's more or less simply a superior position that makes him accountable for family relationships, kind of like a *head self-sacrificer* as it were) that is relentless in the Eph 5 and 1Pet. 3 scriptures. Also, I don't see women as any more easily deceived than men, which seems to have been implied by Rabbi Mark's comment. Thank you for your help, I really do appreciate it! -srchng |
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19 | Either / or? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65504 | ||
Must it be either/or, selfish or unselfish? What if we, the redeemed, are the "joy set before Him?" Didn't He have such a relentless passion for fellowship with us that He was willing to go through all that, not to gain power or position (which were already His *good point, Robert*), but to gain US? Wasn't He so wild about us that He, from a human perspective, threw away what could have been a long, happy life - submitted to torture and death so He could have US with Him forever in unbroken fellowship? Wasn't He really being absolutely selfish and absolutely self-sacrificing at the same time, for His own pleasure AND our benefit? Isn't this really the model He gives for husbands - total self sacrifice for the sake of the joy (and even pleasure) of exceeding excellence in intimate, lasting relationship? |
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20 | Thanks! One more thing. . . | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 65503 | ||
Thanks, Robert. I do my best thinking/understanding when I can discuss things with others. You've given me good food for thought. I really want to understand God's intention for marriage, and how to work out what may seem impossible at moments. I think that walking in faith is my issue. I know I don't have to see the whole thing first, but one step at a time, I want to be as sure as I can that I'm not being foolish. Would you look at my question to mommapbs "greater rank, not greater person?" in the "Is reverence feasible? Always?" string, and give me your thoughts? Thanks, -srchng |
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