Results 1 - 19 of 19
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Kwigger Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105982 | ||
Tim, You seem like a bright and patient guy. I came to Torah observance because one concise question to Christians could never be answered. The question is this: What is the scriptural behavioral standard for Christians? The answer I have received again and again is "Not that OT stuff!" Okay, it also isn't the fortunes I read on Bazooka Joe comics, but that doesn't address the question, does it? What IS? ""Well Jesus is." Okay, so when you say Jesus you mean the guy who kept the Torah perfectly and who I'm told to emulate? That Jesus? "Yeah, that's him." Okay, now we're getting somewhere! So I should live according to Torah like he did. "No-o-o, not that OT stuff." WHAT?! And around and around it goes. Maybe Paul was full of crap. According to you all he made a liar out of God and built the most influencial and lawless religion on earth in the process. Maybe this God is bogus too. He seems dreadfully inconsistant for a being that is alledged to be all powerful and all knowing. Please understand that I don't really believe anything I've written in this paragraph, but you gotta understand that a whole lotta folks are looking for Jesus and abandon the search because they see these inconsistencies. I don't know why Paul wrote some of the things he wrote. I simply do not know. But isn't it infinitely wiser to live a life of orderly obedience then to seek to justify our actions by finding NT proof texts to nullify our duties? The fact remains that Christians as a rule have a prejudice against things "Jewish." They also have a knack for justifying what they want to do. Take Christmas for example. It's pagan as hell, but to here Churchians talk you'd think it was a biblical Feast. "Jesus is the reason for the season?" Jesus has nothing to do with this abomination! Here's another one: Jesus commanded us to commemorate his death, so what do Christians do? They commemorate his birth and resurrection. To add insult to injury, the micro-holiday they use to observe his death (good friday) is 2 nights and a day before the celebration of his resurrection despite the fact that he himself said he'd be in the ground 3 days and 3 nights. It sounds like a good many Christian don't even have the right Jesus. Here's one thing you can take to the bank: If I am wrong it is because I MADE MISTAKES. I won't hide behind some denomination in hopes that blame might be shared at the judgement. The truth is too important and the biblical warning is too clear for me to follow the traditions of men. Christianity has wide-spread, pervasive, systemic problems. Christ doesn't. Chritianity does. It is all too easy to see when others need to change, but some of the fault is our own. I'm done. |
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2 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105967 | ||
Kalos, I've spent some time with this passage in the past. I'm not sure I understand what point you are making. I think "fulfill" means something more like illuminate or elaborate on. I was a little surprised and I found it interesting that "fulfill" in 17 and "fulfilled" in 18 are translated from two entirely different Greek words. Break out your Strong's and let me know what you think. If you take these passages at face value, is your behavior interpreted as "Jewish" by alot of Christians? Are you a sabbath keeper? Do you observe the feasts and eat kosher? Just curious. Kharis and shalom, Kwigger |
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3 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105962 | ||
Kalos, Nice post. What do you make of all these verses? It looks to me like obedience to the Laws of God may be expected and even in our own best interest. Hmmmmm. |
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4 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105959 | ||
Tim, Good morning. You make an excellent point that underscores my own. The Kosher diet and in fact all of Torah emphasizes what TO DO. It was the Rabbinic type religious establishment of Y'shua's and Paul's time(s) that made Torah into (apparently) a big mess of "YOU BETTER NOTs." Your interpretation of 17 is popular but based wholly on the preconception that Christians don't need to do all that "Jewish stuff." This verse simply says the sabbath , moons and diet are reminders of things to come and Messiah is the priority is Messiah. Be well, Kwigger |
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5 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105956 | ||
Tim, You have not addressed the "everlasting" aspect of circumcision in Gen. 17 along with the "Seed of Abraham" matter in Gal. 3. All you have done is put Paul at odds with the God of Abraham. Also: Gal. 5:4 says "You who are TRYING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Look. 1. God makes everlasting covenant (circumcision) with Abraham and his seed in all their generations. (Gen 17) 2. Paul assures us that we are indeed Abraham's seed if we are Christ's. 3. Ergo the everlasting covenant is with Christians as well. How do you reconcile this? It appears to me that thinking on this matter is tainted with an anti-Torah preconception. Have you ever carefully and prayerfully considered this possibility? Grace and peace, Kwigger |
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6 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105927 | ||
So what IS the standard of Christain behavior? Also, you show yourself to be dihonest when you continue to assert I keep Torah for salvation. I have been VERY CLEAR on this point. Torah observance is REASONABLE SERVICE and is not grievious! Are you going to address any of my points? Who is inspecting the Christians' meat to make sure it is properly bled and not strangled as is commanded in Acts 15? Kharis and shalom, Kwigger |
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7 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105926 | ||
Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Classic blunder alert! Colossae is in GREECE! The previous post contains grievious errors! The people surrounding the Church at Colossae who would have been standing in judgement of the new believers would have been the family and peers of pork-eating GREEKS. Greek unbelievers pressuring Greek believers! Paul was warning the Messianic believers there not to succumb to the pressure they would feel from those around them, Greeks not JEWS! This passage means the EXACT opposite of what Churchians normally assert. Before you dismiss this interpretation out of hand, try reading it again while setting aside your own preconceptions. Paul compares Colossae with Laodicea which was know for its lukewarmness and apathy, not its excessive Jewishness. Also, Where Acts 15 is concerned, where are the Christians who are making sure meat is properly bled and not strangled? They say this is all we need to do yet they don't even do this pared down list of commands. I'd really love an answer to this! Grace and peace, Kwigger |
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8 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105910 | ||
Justme, You wrote: "This is a Bible Study Forum that does stand for the New Covenant of Christ Jesus the one and only Son of Yahweh. You have choosen to live under the Law, and you are free to do so. But please show the same respect and not disrupt the primary belief of this forum, please." Response: I too hold to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of Jahovah. Do you see advocacy of a lifestyle of obedience to the Word and Will of God as disruptive? Please, for the sake of the unbeliever who might wander into this forum, tell whoever might be watching how a Christian ought to behave. Is it just a matter of joining a church and going with the flow or is there some sound scriptural foundation? If you cannot answer this fundamental question, it seems to me that disruption is the least of your worries. I would love to read your answer here, but more importantly, is your answer one with which you would be satisfied if you were presenting it to Jesus himself? Kharis and shalom, Kwigger P.S. I too appreciate your graciousness. |
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9 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105893 | ||
Since I have never met Ed, I cannot address his behavior specifically. Even if I did know him, commenting to you on specifics would constitute a breech of friendship. In general however, Christian need to stop depending on their denominational interpretations for what they believe. I have been Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal and Seventh Day Adventist. I was blessed greatly by my participation in all these groups, but in each case false doctrine eventually reared its ugly head. For me to recognize false doctrine I had to vigilantly weigh what each sect taught. I can't depend on men to always tell me the truth. And if your smart you're looking for falsehood in what I am saying. But don't assume that because I disagree with your preacher I'm wrong. Here's a little brain exercise I like to do when considering doctrine: If I woke up on a deserted island with no memory of any religious affiliation and I discovered that all I had was a Bible and a concordance, to what doctrine would I be led? Here's a more direct answer to your question. I would have Ed fire his preacher, clean out his fridge and freezer, stop the pagan practices of Chritmas and Easter, grow a beard, wear tassles, keep the sabbath, observe the feasts and put mezzuzot on all the door frames in his house. Then I could point to Ed with pride and say, "Do you see how much holier Ed is since he started obeying me - er, um- I mean God?" I hope you understand what I am getting at. Following me is as foolish as following any man. And just because two men are on the same road does not mean that they are in the same place. Ed's position seems to be that he canot even consider the possibility that Torah is God's road. As one who has tasted a small measure of what David sang about in Psalm 119, I can tell you that the position Ed and others like him take is heart-breaking. Please read Psalm 119 again before you sleep and consider the possibility that there may be more to reasonable service than they're saying at church. Kharis and shalom, Kwigger |
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10 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105892 | ||
You wrote: "Nothing is more pleasurable than serving the Lord in perfection and if we were able to do I would join you." Am I to take from this that you only serve the Lord in ways that you can do perfectly? If so, I must concede that you are a better man than me for I can do nothing perfectly. I can however do what I can do. Since ALL my works are as filthy rags, I must needs depend on His grace and mercy to make up the difference. Do you refrain fromstealing perfectly? I don't. Committing adultery? Nope. Coveting? Darn, three strikes! The yoke that their fathers could not bear was keeping the commands to perfection, as in unto salvation. (See Acts 15:1) The notion that any imperfection should result in our throwing up our hands goes counter to the idea that we are to be salt and light to the world, doesn't it? Ed, it seems you are pretty well tired of defending the indefensible. Arguing with me is not the path to fuller understanding. For that you need to carefully examine your position in light of the whole of Scripture while setting aside your religious preconceptions. I can tell you from experience that doing this is hard. Those old interpretations keep creeping in. At this point most people with whom I have shared this challenge get insulting and stop making sense. They start with claimes of "Legalist!" or "Judaizer!" What they invariably miss is the obvious fact that being a real Christian means, among other things, acting like one. And acting like one means doing what He says to do. Rejecting the Torah results in degrees of picking and choosing what we will do without acknowledging that we are not on the path toward the revealed standard of godly behavior. Torah is the map to that path. Yahshua is the deliverer who ultimately takes us from as-far-as-we-got to the finish line of perfection. So the question remains: Why should we not simply wait at the starting gate for Messiah to carry us to the finish? One of many Scriptural answers to this question is in I John 5:2-4. " By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith." Is anyone else following this thread? Comments? Where's Asken? Grace and peace, Kwigger P.S. Ed, did you review my point about the attitudes Christians and evolutionists share? |
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11 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105883 | ||
Two words, Ed: "Reasonable service." "Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law. I am a stranger in the earth; Do not hide Your commandments from me. My soul is crushed with longing After Your ordinances at all times. You rebuke the arrogant, the cursed, Who wander from Your commandments. Take away reproach and contempt from me, For I observe Your testimonies. Even though princes sit and talk against me, Your servant meditates on Your statutes. Your testimonies also are my delight; They are my counselors. Daleth." (Psalm119:18-24) If this is bondage, LOCK ME UP! I have also made it very clear that obedience for salvation is a dead end street. What was it that James said about faith and works? You need to read my last post more carefully. I was not discussing evolution; I was comparing the attitudes of evolutionists to the common attitude of many mainstream Christians. Neither is willing to submit to the authority of the standard in which the claim to believe. Grace and peace, Kwigger |
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12 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105870 | ||
Ed, Cicumcision was given in Genesis to Abraham and his seed as an everlasting covenant. If "everlasting" is somehow over in your view, please explain. Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, underscores the fact that if we are Christ's we are Abraham's seed. Again, if you hold that Paul cannot be taken at his word, please explain. The circumcision covenant was given prior to the birth of Levi's GRANDFATHER, so it is assuredly not a Levitical law. It is still to be done. And please don't beat up on poor Titus. The Scripture never says he was not circumcised; it says he was not compelled to be circumcised. This is the same basic controversy we see in Acts 15. "And certain menwhich came down from Judaea taught the bretheren, and sai, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED." (Emphasis added) As for the other matters you list, I am not sure why Christians want to use me as a standard when Messiah is a perfect one, but if it makes you feel better, I wear a full beard and fringes. I also try to avoid plant/animal blends in the fabrics we wear. But don't worry, I still have plenty of hypocrisy to root out of my life. In a previous post you asked what my point was in pointing out that 3/4 of the decrees made by the Jerusalem council were dietary. Well the point is the inconsistency of the standard Christian argument against Kosher eating. If Acts 15 is your behavioral standard, then how is YOUR meat bled? How do you know that the porkchops you enjoy are not from a strangled hog or first offered to idols. "Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law." (Romans 3:30) Let me assure you. Ed that I have been right where you are. Please allow me to make a comparison to which I think you will be able to relate. Have you seen these creationist guys who give presentations all over the country? There's Kent Hovind, Ken Hamm, John Morris and probably many more whose names I don't know. They have a two-fold mission. They fortify the resolve of those who agree with them and challenge those who do not to take a critical look at the very popular false doctrine (macroevolution) they embrace. It is hard for the evolutionists to turn a critical eye on their own religion. There is a great deal of sentimental attachment and they have learned to be quite confortable in their beliefs. You or I look at these people and think, "But they claim science is their standard! Don't they see that what they believe is utterly perpendicular to REAL SCIENCE!" In their defence, evolution is widely believed, pervasively taught and seldom questioned in their circles. We both know that doesn't make it right. "Disobedience Doctrine" is exactly the same way! In fact, anti-Semetic and anti-Torah sentiments were a mainstay of Churchianity centuries before Darwinism, but that still doesn't mean it's right. Christians carry preconceived notions just like evolutionists and they cling to them just as tenaciously. My prayer is that Christians will turn a critical eye on themselves and return to their professed standard (Scripture) just as they would have the evolutionists self-examine and return to their standard (science). Where is Asken during all this? Are you getting any of this? Grace and peace my friends, Kwigger |
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13 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105837 | ||
Ed, You have delineated between Levitical laws and non-Levitical laws. How are you defining Levitical laws? Be well, Kwigger |
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14 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105832 | ||
Greetings Ed, I have heard many Christians claim that Acts 15 summarizes the behavioral expectation for believers. That dog just won't hunt. The declaration of this council was a starting point for new believers and v. 21 shows the importance of the writings of Moses. This verse also gives a recommendation to seek the rest of what is expected by going to the synagogue on the sabbath. If this chapter does indeed give the whole behavioral expectation where is the "you should tithe" or the "don't murder" just to name a few? Also, three of the four rules given by the Jerusalem council are DIETARY! As for the rest of your kosher comments, you are not delineating between Torah and Talmud (or God-made and Man-made). Also, I can soak meat in saltwater as well as any Rabbi. And one last thing, does my not being "kosher enough" give others permission to not even try to eat kosher? That is what your comments seem to imply (not "infer"). "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." I John 2:3 Kharis and shalom, Kwigger |
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15 | What's Heaven? | 2 Cor 12:2 | Kwigger | 105826 | ||
Thank you for your response, Makarios. Here's a follow-up: Where do we get the idea that the rank and file believers will occupy the third Heaven? Isn't that a bit of Hallmark and Hollywood that has crept into the beliefs of many? Also, do I take it from what you wrote that you believe that departed saints are currently in the third heaven? I have wrestled with this. Was Lazarus called out of Heaven or out of the grave? In the OT we hear dying called sleeping with our fathers. Hmmm. Kharis and shalom, Hoss |
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16 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105810 | ||
Mr. B's response is certainly a popular interpretation, but alas it is founded far more in the traditions of men and misunderstanding of the extra-scriptural nature of Talmud than on the canon of Scripture. The cheese burger thing is a straw man. That is based entirely on a single verse (Deut. 14:21) and has indeed been greatly expanded upon by Rabbis. There is no biblical support for the separation of meat and dairy. In fact, when the Angel of the Lord dined with Abraham just prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah they ate veal and curd. I suppose that curd might have been tofu, but I think an assumption of cheese is not unreasonable. I have been eating what I call "Biblically kosher" for about seven years now. I call it that because I have not adopted the whole Rabbinic code, but rather let Scripture alone set the rules. The basic rules go something like this: Land animals- Cloven hoof and chews the cud (i.e. cattle, deer, goats and sheep); Sea food- Fins and scales (i.e. no shellfish, catfish or shark); Birds- No birds of prey or scavengers. Ultimately, the Bible never does repeal the dietary code and it DOES call Christians the seed of Abraham (Gal. 3). The standard Christian response to this statement is a cry of "Legalist!" but I am not suggesting that avoiding pork will bring salvation. I only assert that such behavior constitutes reasonable service for all believers. Acts 10 is accompanied by an interpretation of Peters vision in v. 28. "God hath shewed me that I should not call any MAN common or unclean." Peter's vision dealt with Jewish bigotry toward the Goyim, not with menus. I Tim. 4 is a topic unto itself, but for the sake of brevity suffice it to say God never made pork "to be received" as food. The original question is a thread on a sweater. If you pull it, you will find that you risk unravelling much of modern Christianity. Here's a follow-up question: What is the ultimate behavioral standard for the Body of Christ? Does the life-style of one who really follows Scripture look anything like the life-style of a modern Christian? Kharis and shalom, Kwigger |
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17 | Unclean food for the Christian? | Lev 1:1 | Kwigger | 105809 | ||
Mr. B's response is certainly a popular interpretation, but alas it is founded far more in the traditions of men and misunderstanding of the extra-scriptural nature of Talmud than on the canon of Scripture. The cheese burger thing is a straw man. That is based entirely on a single verse (Deut. 14:21) and has indeed been greatly expanded upon by Rabbis. There is no biblical support for the separation of meat and dairy. In fact, when the Angel of the Lord dined with Abraham just prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah they ate veal and curd. I suppose that curd might have been tofu, but I think an assumption of cheese is not unreasonable. I have been eating what I call "Biblically kosher" for about seven years now. I call it that because I have not adopted the whole Rabbinic code, but rather let Scripture alone set the rules. The basic rules go something like this: Land animals- Cloven hoof and chews the cud (i.e. cattle, deer, goats and sheep); Sea food- Fins and scales (i.e. no shellfish, catfish or shark); Birds- No birds of prey or scavengers. Ultimately, the Bible never does repeal the dietary code and it DOES call Christians the seed of Abraham (Gal. 3). The standard Christian response to this statement is a cry of "Legalist!" but I am not suggesting that avoiding pork will bring salvation. I only assert that such behavior constitutes reasonable service for all believers. Acts 10 is accompanied by an interpretation of Peters vision in v. 28. "God hath shewed me that I should not call any MAN common or unclean." Peter's vision dealt with Jewish bigotry toward the Goyim, not with menus. I Tim. 4 is a topic unto itself, but for the sake of brevity suffice it to say God never made pork "to be received" as food. The original question is a thread on a sweater. If you pull it, you will find that you risk unravelling much of modern Christianity. Here's a follow-up question: What is the ultimate behavioral standard for the Body of Christ? Does the life-style of one who really follows Scripture look anything like the life-style of a modern Christian? Kharis and shalom, Kwigger |
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18 | What's Heaven? | Not Specified | Kwigger | 105806 | ||
What is "heaven?" I get the sense that folks believe in a supernatural plane of existance to which a ghost-like being goes after death. The ghost-like being seems to be a translation of an human being sharing memories and aspects of personality with the deceased. After the return of Christ, those disembodied beings will be given glorified bodies, right? Where will they live? The Scriptures seem to me to indicate that the Earth will be made whole again as it was prior to the fall, so why do we hear so much about "going to heaven?" Are not the reconciled to Jahovah destined for a perfected Earth rather than to Heaven? Is the new Earth really the Heaven we hear people talk about? |
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19 | What's Heaven? | 2 Cor 12:2 | Kwigger | 105821 | ||
What is "heaven?" I get the sense that folks believe in a supernatural plane of existance to which a ghost-like being goes after death. The ghost-like being seems to be a translation of an human being sharing memories and aspects of personality with the deceased. After the return of Christ, those disembodied beings will be given glorified bodies, right? Where will they live? The Scriptures seem to me to indicate that the Earth will be made whole again as it was prior to the fall, so why do we hear so much about "going to heaven?" Are not the reconciled to Jahovah destined for a perfected Earth rather than to Heaven? Is the new Earth really the Heaven we hear people talk about? |
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