Results 1 - 20 of 31
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Elijah_Jones Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Matt 16:6 explained | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91799 | ||
"As long as you love Jesus, any differences are not important." If we all were to heed such advice.. putting our love for Christ and his sheep... ahead of our limited understandings and debateable doctrines ( I don't believe all doctrine to be debateable, or less than crystal clear, btw) imagine the power the church would obtain to bring others to Him and see the Bride in her glory. Francis Frangipane wrote an article on this recently. You can read the article entitled THE CREDIBILITY FACTOR which may be read here: http://www.frangipane.org/ Regardless of where one stands on various issues, I believe it to be a sound word for this time. |
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2 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91709 | ||
I believe I've made myself clear and no further amount of debate will add to what I've said on the matter. I will retire from this debate. When we can bring correction to an abuse is not having just gone through it, but when forgiveness and mercy has cleansed out the bitterness and the power of God has brought healing to the wounds. Until that happens, we are trapped by the poison even if we now find ourselves in battle against it. I'm concerned you'll quickly dismiss this advice like the rest of what I have laid out. Let me say this.. I am not the one throwing stones or bringing accusations against people I would be VERY hard pressed to discount as genuine Christians. That, in itself, should give one pause to think carefully about one's position. Mormon's are clearly false, since they have added to cannonized Scripture to support their doctrines. One must firstly settle the issue of what is Scripture before there can be any foundation to build upon. Comparing them to WOF is just another faulty argument that you have used by tieing something else to what the basic tenets you refer to as WOF are. Oh..and btw. The entire paragraph about Job,Paul, Abraham, keys and all that is all conjecture.. not the basic tenets that I am defending. None of those things you are mentioning are backed conclusively by Scripture. They can be vaguely alluded to, but are in no way remotely close to clear to build doctrine from. So again, it is just a way to blame excesses and aberrations as evidence against the basic fundamental tenets you refer to as WOF. And Discenment is the ability to identify the true from the false, nothing really more than that, at its basic level. So, I'll leave this debate with those final comments and thoughts. Now, I'll go pray that God will keep me from any temptations to sin out of pride, anger, or ill will regarding our difference of opinion. I am asking God that he will bless you and lead you into all truth and righteousness.. as well as myself to the same.. that we can stand before him with our hearts clear of any sin resulting from our difference of opinion. Be blessed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. |
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3 | Matt 16:6 explained | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91705 | ||
Good post and thought here! I do think that Pharisees were trying to obtain righteousness. Jesus said it well when he said "You search the Scriptures for in them you THINK you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of me". I'm convinced that the Pharisees really thought they were more righteous than everyone else, because they were doing better than everyone else. Hence, they looked like whitewashed tombs. Everything looked good on the outside, it was the heart where the problem lay. As to the Cain and Abel thing. I think I may have led you to believe I was expounding a doctrine. I'm not. There really isn't a clear explanation given on precisely what the problem was between the two. I'm not even sure we're told why they decided it was appropriate to even give an offering in the first place. We are left to fill in the gaps.. so to speak. It may be exactly what you are stating, it might be what I am stating, it might be something else altogether. All I meant to say was that when I was involved in studying out the danger of self-righteousness thru works, this Scripture came to me as a type of prophetic illustration of the difference between faith in Christ and our laboring to get right with God. I maintain that the thing that we can add to our obediance that becomes leaven is a foolish trust that our salvation rests in how well we obey God. It rests solely on Jesus's work on the cross and our trust in His work. Our obediance is simply "proof of the pudding" that we have in deed come to faith in Christ. I agree that we are in the same sheet of music. :) I am blessed to have had this oppurtunity for us to look at each other's understandings, and hope and pray that we are both built up in our faith and our love for one another. I know that I have been! Be blessed, my brother in Christ. |
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4 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91687 | ||
(Part Two.. continued) "These false teachers are peddling their wares in a very affluent society and they are becoming rich basically selling the gospel. Two things are interesting in this. First what they do only works here in the US, other nations either don’t have the money to interest them or know better than to suckered into buying what they sell." my response: Yet again, you base your disdain on percieved (depending on the exact situation, that perception may be accurate or not) abuses and excesses. If charlatons are in fact using the truth of God for their own gain to the shame of the Kingdom, their plight is one we should feel immense pity and sorrow for. But.. the messenger is not the message. And I am sure that some do in fact take the solid foundation and build something upon it that is not a Godly structure. That structure WILL topple, if that is the case. It is no different than other deceptions of the enemy. The recourse is not to build a "fence law" around the teachings being abused, but rather do our part to see them restored in their proper setting. "I was trained in Word of Faith Ministry, I know many of these preachers but more importantly I know how many live when not in the public view. I know how they talk about the flock, I know how they practice and rehearse, I know of what I speak." my response: Again I say to you, your involvement with abuses has created a root of bitterness in you. You have lumped the good in with the bad, because of what happened somewhere along the line. Your getting free of this is not to accuse and condemn, but to forgive those who have wronged you, and to speak the truth in love to bring light to the situation. Don't take on a vendetta that should not exist. You may have legitimate greivances against those that abuse or twist the pure truth of God, but don't assume for a minute that all people holding to the basic tenets of Hagin et all, are in that same boat. I can assure you with all confidence, that they are not. "However I sense you are closed to what I’m saying so there is no point in going on. However if you ever find yourself without hope because the WOF formula has let you down. I will be here on the forum come back and we can talk." my response: And here is the irony. I would not, nor would others around me, label me a big proponent of WOF. My task is to see the Body of Christ fit together, working together, edifying one another, rather than tearing one another down. I work cross-denominationally to see churches working together rather than at each other's throats or stealing each other's sheep. I work with the Baptist, the Methodist, the Pentacostals, the Charismatics, the so-called "non-denominationals", and others. I don't say this to boast, but to illustrate I am not stuck in some kind of religious dogma that only accounts for a certain viewpoint to the exclusion of the entirety of Scripture. I encourage and share the light of God's Word. I bring healing and deliverance to those assailed by the enemy, wherever they may be found. God alone will judge the works of my ministry to see whether they be of stubble or of precious stone. You see, the WOF formula cannot fail me, for my faith is not in some formula, but rather in the One that created the heavens and the earth and the fullness thereof. The One who died for me, that I might live. That took upon himself my sin that I might be righteous in the eyes of God. The One who sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for me day and night. The One who is faithful and true. My advocate in all accusations. And He shall never fail me, nor forsake me. I believe His Word to be true and useful in EVERY situation I find myself in.. both good and bad. He is the One who purchased me from the clutches of the evil one. His name is Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Noone comes to the Father but through Him. My trust is in Him, and thus I cannot find myself without Hope.. for His Word is sure, and can never be undone. |
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5 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91686 | ||
"Discernment is a gift and when utilized correctly it can lead keep us from deception." my response: Unfortunately, what is often referred to as discernment is nothing more than fear which stems from our trusting OUR ability to follow rather than the LORD'S ability to lead. Learning to recognize and trust the Lord's voice is the first step in true discernment. This is not a subjective thing, but rather an intimate familiarity that comes as we read the Word, pray, worship, and fellowship with the body of Christ. "Their sin nature is overlooked and the problems are blamed elsewhere" my response: I don't find much in the way of any of these teacher's teaching that excuses or placates sin. Quite the opposite, actually. In fact, obedience to the Lord is a very real requirement to experience the blessing of the Lord. "Jesus spoke of this when we he warned that the time was coming when people would no longer look for sound doctrine, but seek instead the things that tickled their ears." my response: These were doctrines of demons, being referred to.. or in other words, deceptions. Specifically, things like condoning or excusing the following: Sexual immorality, homosexuality, adultery, drunkeness, deciet, thieving, etc. The Word says that permission for these practices will enter the church. We need look no further than the headlines in the news today of ordinations taking place to see precisely what this warning is about. Nowhere does this warning imply that those who encourage the Body to take God's Word for what it means are guilty of this. And, by the way, I am not making a justifiable case for anyone that uses these basic teachings to line their own pockets from selfish ambitions. They will answer before the Lord on that matter. But their abuse does not constitute a flaw in the basic doctrine. In fact, Jesus said many would take the true practices of God to serve themselves without any allegiance or familiarity with Him. To them he said that they would cast out demons, perform miracles, and prophesy and yet he did not know them. That does not discount that all of these practices are Scriptural and necessary to the building up of the Kingdom. "Nobody wants to hear that living the Christian life is hard requiring sacrifices, they want to hear instead about the benefits." my response: Both sacrifice and blessings are required and bestowed upon the believer. We are in error when we believe otherwise. What precisely those sacrifices and blessings are, is really the crux of the matter, isn't it? "Your right I don listen to the watch dogs organizations." ( I assume you mean do and not don't, within the context of your argument) my response: Watch dogs are very different than watchman. Prophetically, I find it very interesting that these societies spend so much of their time accusing the body of Christ. You see, the difference between a watch dog and a watchman is profound. The dog will bark at every unfamiliarity to them, whether friend or foe. They lack true understanding and discernment except to what they are sure is already familiar to them in thier limited understanding. A watchman, on the other hand, examines the credentials of who approaches the gate and requests admittance. In this case, the credentials they must examine is the authenticity of the teaching against the light of Scripture. You trust these watchdog societies in their appraisals.. even though they often conflict amongst themselves. I do not do so, without first examining in light of Scripture humbly before the Lord for his admonition, correction, and direction. I find it interesting that the vast bulk of your argument is silent where Scripture is concerned. You speak of excesses and abuses that I have nowhere defended nor excused. Unfortunately, it appears some bad experiences have colored your discernment and perception on these matters, and you have thus thrown the baby out with the bathwater. As a wise and wonderful man of God once said to me.. "Eat the wheat, and spit out the chaff". The picture of these watchdogs barking at every preacher and teaching that doesn't fit their particular paradigm of religion is a very fitting and powerful allegory. (end of part one.. sorry for the long post. Continues in part two) |
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6 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91582 | ||
After reading your replies and reflecting on the various discussions you have participated in, I have been led to conclude a few things. Firstly, you appear to operate on a fair amount of heresay and false conjecture. You are gathering much of your information from so-called "watchdog" societies. I would counsel you to begin to investigate these matters for yourself against the light of Scripture. The fact you attack Neil Anderson in the fashion you do tells me you have not read his work with any degree of objectivity, if you've read them at all. Don't take my word for it.. let me quote a well respected preacher, Chuck Swindoll, as he gives his opinion on the book I referenced. He states " A calm, practical, workable plan from Scripture that results in freedom and victory for the child of God. Neil Anderson is one of the most experienced and dependable authorities in America today". (quote from Chuck Swindoll concerning the book THE BONDAGE BREAKER) You incorrectly assert that Neil Anderson has a demon hiding behind every bush. You again assert, incorrectly, that our primary spiritual struggle is the flesh. I have first hand and extensive experience in seeing people freed from addictions and perversions that they were completely trapped in. I know of a man personally trapped in satanic ritual, homosexuality who was HIV positive. He was delivered and restored to the body of Christ. I was privelaged to be in attendance when he was cured of HIV.. and have the lab tests to prove it. If you had read the material, you would understand that Anderson asserts that the lusts of the flesh is what the lies of the enemy and his host use to cause the Child of God to be tempted and succumb to sin. The bible says this: Eph 6:10-20 This is one of the most clear and conscise statements in all of Scripture pertaining to our struggle against sin and the means to combat it. To discount the spiritual forces behind the deceptions we believe would be a grave error indeed. Anderson also states quite plainly the main weapon in the enemy's arsenal is DECEPTION.. and that the solution is to be armed with the TRUTH as laid out in scripture. Ed, I plead with you that you would discontinue your rails against people who's ministry has brought FAR more people to Christ and set them free in the truth of who we are in Christ, than you and I have. It is not fitting for the child of God to do so against his co-laborers. You are also repeatedly quoting excesses and abuses of the basic teachings as though the excesses in themselves ARE the teachings. That is no more true than the distortions brought forth by "conservative fundamentalists" that put a yoke of bondage upon people because they emphasize works over grace. I've seen as much or more spiritual abuse, guilt, and damage from those teachings as I have from charismatic or wof distortions. Yet, I would be foolish to condemn the basic tenets of the conservative fundamental orientations, as they are also based in truths of Scripture. It is only when we take them past the point of balance that they become an aberation to the truth of God. Finding that balance is the real trick, isn't it? The best illustration I can think of to clarify my point is this: How does one come to understand the severity of God's judgement and the breadth, width, and heighth of his mercy? We look at the cross. Where the terrible anger of God against sin meets the unrelenting mercy and forgiveness of God. Where the depravity of sin in man, responsible for placing God upon a tree to be mocked, tortured, and killed meets the words of Christ: "Father, forgive them.. for they know not what they do". One need not discount the severity and righteous judgement of God nor the mercies of God to the exclusion of the other.. even though without the picture of the cross it would be hard to understand how God has one foot firmly planted in both camps. So it often is with our foolish judgements and arguments in finding faults with those charged in restoring biblical truths lost to the church thru the dark ages and subsequent restoration of truths lost in that period. Lastly.. you charge me with lack of discernment. I would like you to prayerfully reconsider that accusation. Ed, I have no desire to argue with you and prove myself right and you wrong. I am sharing with you my understandings and some of my experiences. That doesn't, of itself, prove anything. It is just information for you to take and hopefully give thought to. I realize you have had to deal with the excesses and abuses of those who have twisted the basic tenets of the principles we've been discussing. I have too. I've also had to deal with tremendous shame and guilt within people that were raised in fundamental orthodox Christianity. Trust me when I say, it is just as damaging.. and in ways even MORE difficult to work through. |
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7 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91549 | ||
I'll offer some of my thoughts on this that I hope will bring clarity to my position regarding the concerns you raise. First of all, it is certainly NOT a sin to pray "thy will be done". It is actually sinful to pray from ANY other attitude, in all reality. Prayer should always be done from a heart of humility and confidence.. not demanding from God, but rather in an effort to agree with what God has said and see God's will come forth on earth as it is in heaven - a stark contrast to what you are saying. I have not seen any respected teacher of the so-called WOF ministry that says otherwise. I have seen people try to claim they do, but have not seen it. I am sure there are many variations of people that might be lumped under a WOF heading, but I don't take all variations to be valid or correct applications of what the more prominent (Kenneth Hagin, Sr. most distinctly comes to mind) WOF teachers have dispensed. I have never seen brother Hagin's teaching to include that it is sinful to pray "Thy will be done". If he has said that in no uncertain terms, I would be in complete disagreement with him, at this point of my understanding. I don't think we can ever directly refute Jesus's own examples and teachings and be doctrinally correct. In fact, that is why I believe so emphatically on the blessings and promises of the Bible. If He says it or promises it, then even if my experience APPEARS to say otherwise, he is right and my experience is wrong. I think the foundation of this whole argument is not who is in control, us or God. There is no question there. But rather.. what has God promised to us and what can we expect from Him. How sure is His word on the matter of healing. What must we do to build our faith so that IF it is the limiting factor in a given healing situation.. we can position ourselves to build it up and get rid of that obstacle. The truth that I have come to believe is that more often than not, lack of faith IS the reason that we don't see FAR more healing and provision in Christian's lives than we do. I don't believe that is due to lack of faith in God, but rather a limited understanding of just how much God has promised us in His word. "My people perish for lack of knowledge" is an appropriate commentary on precisely this situation. God's perfect will is demonstrated in heaven. We are to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. How much sickness or lack of provision is there in heaven? How sure can we be that God WILL supply for our needs ( and not necessarily our SELFISH WANTS). How sure can we be that God is willing and able to heal us, if there be no GREATER PURPOSE for us to continue in afflication (and that is a big sticking point.. though I believe that far more often we use that as a crutch than a valid reality). WOF, as you are referring.. at its basic tenets not only leaves room for God, but is TOTALLY dependent upon the understanding of God's power, will, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness. Far from leaving no room for God, true WOF teaching is impotent apart from Him. On the final matter of people being abused thru such teaching. True teaching of the power of the Word of God in Faith, will build up and offer hope. There is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. I see this same thing buffet people that have trouble getting free of addiction and other sins, that are genuine Christians, but are perishing for lack of knowledge of what Christ HAS (past tense) already accomplished for them. Neil T. Anderson does a magnificent job of illuminating that situation in his book, The Bondage Breaker. I see strong parallels there.. although I do not consider the inability to appropriate God's healing due to lack of faith as necessarily sinful. Faith in Jesus can be vital and full, and due to lack of understanding of God's PROVISIONS AND PROMISES, there be lack of faith for healing. So.. guilt coming upon a person due to lack of faith for healing is NOT from God or of any benefit to anyone. With a grateful and thankful heart, we can look expectantly to our Lord to deliver us from sickness and lack of provision.. not to demand anything from Him.. since why must one DEMAND what is already something purchased for us?? Think of the foolishness of that! If I, being an imperfect parent, will go out and buy something for my children.. I'm usually very EAGER to give it to them and see the smile upon their faces. Certainly they don't need to demand, but rather to simply recieve with thankful hearts that which they have asked for. Isn't that precisely what Jesus promised us in Matt 7:11? Confidence in God's promise is certainly different from demanding God to do things our way. Instead, we simply must align ourselves to His promises, and let His words fill our hearts and our mouths. And any teaching to the contrary, I would find disagreement with. |
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8 | Matt 16:6 explained | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91531 | ||
Amen and Bless you!! | ||||||
9 | Matt 16:6 explained | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91525 | ||
The dangerous thing about Legalism is that at the surface it can appear to be obediance. The real problem is not that the Pharisees were being faulted for keeping the law, but rather in their TRUSTING THEMSELVES in obtaining righteousness through their strict keeping of the law. This is the essence of self-righteousness.. which I believe is one of the most, if not THE most dangerous places to fall into. Jesus was able to reach into the hearts of prostitutues, adulterers, extortionists, and murderers (man on the cross with him that joined him in paradise for one).. yet he met an unresistable force in the hardness of heart of the most religious adherants of His day. This yeast.. which is something added to the mix of keeping the law.. caused those infected to become satisfied with their own spiritual condition, and not recognizing the need for the saviour. This is a theme throughout the all of Scripture, not just the new testament. Despite all their strict adherance to following the law, their righteousness was still as "filthy rags". One of the first glimpeses into this condition was when the Lord began speaking to me of Cain and Abel. Cain brought forth an offering from the work of his hands (works) while Abel brought forth the blood of a sacrifice (redemption thru the spilled life of another). Unfortunately, the same yeast showed up nearly right away in the early church.. despite the very clear sound of grace being issued. A classic example (and there are many, many others) is Galations 3:1. No man is justified by the keeping of the Law, but rather through grace and the atoning work of the Cross. Again.. let me state clearly. Obediance FROM A RIGHT HEART, is absolutely essential for our faith to be alive (James illustrates this perhaps most clearly in all of scripture) and for us to live in Kingdom Reality in the here and now. So I am not suggesting or condoning "dead" faith in Christ thru grace as license to commit sin. They are opposite ends of the spectrum.. and constitue a turning to the left or the right. One turn is legalism, which is anethema to God as it decieves us into trusting ourselves instead of Christ and rests in pride and self-righteousness, the other is wanton sinning and disobediance and a jaded indifference to the consequences of living apart from the tenets of God. Neither place is where we want to be, but of the two.. legalism is the most dangerous, as it rests in OUR PERCIEVED goodness, rather than the darkness of our deeds which our hearts already know to be wrong and shameful. As I've said before and now say again, love is the most important of all. Love is a higher law than even the old covenant's laid out law.. and much more demanding. That is why Jesus pointed out it is easier to go thru the motions of keeping the law than it is to have the heart desire to keep it. IE.. "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The thing that so infuriated the Pharisees was the Lord's willingness to show mercy, forgiveness, and compassion to those that the Pharisee's deemed "unworthy". We see this conflict everywhere we turn where the Lord encounted the religious teachers of the day. It pointed out to them that they were no better off than the "worst of the sinners" despite all their hard work. Thank you brother for this oppurtunity for me to share my thoughts with you. I pray that we will edify and build up each others faith and that no root of bitterness would spring up in any of the things we might see any differently on. However, from reading what you are posting, I certainly cannot say I disagree with what you have written in any substantial way. I do agree, for instance, that another BIG problem the Pharisees had was looking for the approval of men, rather than the approval of God and the hypocrisy of their actions in this regard. I am only saying that I don't believe that particular issue was the one that was being referred to as leaven. Rather I feel that is a SYMPTOM of self-righteousness and trusting in ourselves, rather than the root. Play acting and self-righteos pomp always "feel" better is we have an approving audience. |
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10 | Matt 16:6 explained | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91396 | ||
Word of explanation: When I quoted the eat, drink, and be merry thing.. I feel I should be a bit more clear of what I take that to mean. When Paul said that, he was referring to living withour regard to what God wants of us.. just living life in ease, comfort, and however we choose, regardless of the tenets of God. To turn the grace of God into license to live contrary to God's law and think there are no penalties for such a thing. Hope that clears that up a bit. |
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11 | Matt 16:6 explained | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91393 | ||
I agree that when we recognize ungodliness in our lives we need to get rid of it, to experience the fullness that God has for us. However, that being said, I believe Jesus was really hitting hard on something else here. The Pharisees were FANATICAL in their approach to living out the exact letter of the law. They tithed right down to the seeds of plants! They made LONG prayers, they did everything they could to follow the law of God. The problem is that they trusted in THEIR ability to fulfill the law to save them.. rather than trusting GOD to save them. They searched the scriptures thinking in them they would find salvation, and yet they would NOT come to the LIVING WORD.. the very person of Jesus. Legalism.. trusting our performance rather than God's performance of redemption.. was the leaven that they had added to the pure laws of God. Jesus illustrated that very clearly in his parable of the tax collector smiting his chest before the Lord going away justified, whereas the Pharisee was thankful that he was walkiing the "straight and narrow". There is a warning that infuriated the Pharisees here. That their strict adherance that started at a very young age was NOT SUFFICIENT to enter the Kingdom of God. The pharisees would be right at home in many our our churches today.. I fear. Another way it has been stated is the Jesus-Plus doctrines. That something more than genuined faith in the person and work of Jesus is required for salvation. This at the very simplest term is teh yeast to which Jesus refers. The greatest danger for SINCERE Christians is not so much being trapped into sin as it is to trust in our level of obediance to save us. This is an affront to God leading to having our hearts empty of forgivenss, grace, and mercy. Which Jesus again said was the downfall when he said to learn what mercy and compassion was all about. They were keeping people from entering into the place of worship because those people did not measure up to the Pharisees standards of holiness and purity. Not understanding that LOVE was the fulfillment of the law. The Pharisees... instead of helping to lift the burden of sin from people.. were actually piling heavy loads upon the very people that God wanted to save. Thus Jesus warned of the YOKE of the Pharisees, and that His yoke was light. Now... as it is written.. we do not turn the grace of God into license to commit sin. That would be a perversion of the truth Jesus is revealing here. But rather, we understand that GRACE has been given us through faith in Jesus. That is our confidence and worthy trust. Our obediance will bring us into the fullness of God's riches, and will spare us from much unpleasantness. So my words are NOT to be confused that we can eat, drink, and be merry, but rather we can have life, and life abundantly.. as we sit at the feet of Jesus and learn of Him. We can REST in his work, and show obediance to Him out of a glad and grateful heart! Be blessed in the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! |
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12 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91380 | ||
Just a quick thought on this matter. If we lack faith, that is NOT a guarantee against recieving healing.. though there are times where unbelief WILL create a situation where healing will NOT come. Even Jesus was in a situation where he could not do many miracles in a place due to chronic unbelief. On the flip side.. the Word of God clearly states that the prayer of FAITH will bring healing, and that if we believe in our heart and ask God we are promised healing. Does that mean.. and here is the sticking point that I see as the basis of this disagreemtn... Does this mean that God will ALWAYS heal if there is enough faith and we've met the other requirements set forth in Scripture? (ie clear of unforgiveness, uncoffessed sin, etc) I think that an argument from Scripture can be built on both sides of the debate. It appears, from Scripture, not everyone was healed but it also appears the healing IS promised and HAS been appropriated for the believers of God. In the end equation, I would place my confidence that I should do all to confess the Word of God on the matter, believing in my heart that God is willing and able to heal me and deliver me. I would continue to pursue God for healing and believing His Word. Faith is a very important part of recieving ANY blessings from God... including salvation. I don't believe we have to "twist God's arm" to deliver on his promises. Just believing will appropriate what he has already promised. There are many precepts in the Word that are difficult to get our minds around, nonetheless.. God clearly HAS stated that faith is the most important part of the equation on our side of things, to recieve from God. By FAITH we inherit the promises. I pray my words do not cause any division.. as I feel that unity in the body is SOOOO much more important than doctrinal debates around "peripheral" points of limited understanding. |
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13 | Was the fall part of the plan? | Rom 9:11 | Elijah_Jones | 91230 | ||
Romans 9: 11-23 You have already answered your own question. :) I give reference to a section of scripture that I believe will be most enlightening in relation to your question. Peace and blessings to you in the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! |
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14 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91058 | ||
Hello again brother in our blessed Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ! I would have totally agree with you that miracles alone do not make a Christian. Nonetheless, signs and wonders were obviously an important part of Christ's ministry as well as the recorded events of the followers of Christ. I thank God that He has chosen to prove himself thru signs and wonders. I know that many DO come to know Jesus as Saviour and Lord as a result of them. But you are right that more than just coming for the signs, one must come to know Him. As I've heard many say in the charismatic circles.. signs and wonders should be following US, not vice versa. :) Now.. I can only refute this incident with the same information that I have already posted. That although some may in fact try to use deceptive tactics to "fleece the sheep", that does in no way discredit those that are operating in true annointing. The sternest warning in all of scripture came right on the heals of the religious "correct" group of the day attesting that Jesus was delivering people using a familiar spirit, or the power of Beelzebub. That deserves serious consideration, in my estimation. I feel we must exercise extreme caution and humility as we come before the Lord on these matters, lest we be guilty of the same offense. |
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15 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91017 | ||
Thank you for your gracious response. I hope you see that I'm not necessarily "encouraging" the assembly line slain in the spirit thing.. I'm just saying that depending on the situation it may be false or genuine. Jesus promised that the sheep know his voice. If we are humble and come to His Word and meditate upon it with sincere desire to know Him and His truth, I think we can rest in His ability to lead us. I've met and seen what I believe to be 100 percent genuine supernatural manifestations of the spirit, and I've seen what I believe to be charismatic antics... the counterfeit always seeks to draw people away from the true. But we must not allow the counterfeit to create disdain for the genuine, or we are playing directly into the enemy's hand. That is my best understanding of things, which I admit is limited and totally dependant upon God to illuminate for me as I grow in wisdom and understanding. |
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16 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91016 | ||
That sounds like it was most likely an abuse of the principle. But if someone abuses a specific principle for personal gain, that does not render the basic principle void. We see in the new testament believers being asked to give to the needs of the body of Christ, but then we also see those asking people to give working hard to support themselves so that they might not give the appearance of "fleecing the sheep". That is also balanced by the "worker is worthy of his wages" principle. As with anything, when selfish motives and desires come into play, the pure and beautiful principles of God can become twisted and harmful. I am saddened that such a practice would be considered to be part of the various principles we have been discussing here. I would emphatically state that it is not, but rather appears to be a blatant abuse. God alone can judge this particular instance you mention, but I would not want to be in his shoes if he was acting on his own selfish reasons. I don't really see a precedant in scripture that giving a specific amount of money (apart from the tithe situation) was ever rewarded with "the desire of ones heart".. so if I were forced to judge this situation, I would judge it as false. |
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17 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 90918 | ||
Good post! Be blessed and may our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ continue to reveal himself to you in ever-increasing measure! |
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18 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 90914 | ||
Umm.. he fell as though dead from fear, if I am reading the bible correctly.. not immediatly in worship. It doesn't say whether forward or backward. Probably his knees buckled and he fell whichever way his balance was at that moment, don't you think? I mean.. if you have ever swooned from fear, I think you would agree with that appraisal. And the only clear explanation is that he was knocked out (as though dead)from awe and fear of the Holy presence of God. I think it is dangerous to try to suppose that falling backward or forward is superior or more authentic to one or the other. ? Physical phenomenon accompanying the manifest presence of God is more the norm than vice versa, from accounts we have in the Bible. Tounges of fire type manifestations, falling to the ground, hair turning white, being struck dead! These and others are examples of what can happen when God meets his people in a manifest and supernatural way. There is no scripture stating that has changed any today from the way it was back in the scripture, that I've ever seen or been convinced of. Certainly some of what we see may be counterfeit to a greater or lesser degree, but that does not mean we should build doctrine around things to decry it from happening in the genuine arena. As Paul once stated (forgive the loose paraphrase)when some abuses entered into the Corinthian church.. don't forbid tongues or prophecy just because some people are getting out of order with them. That would be the greater loss! Instead eagerly DESIRE these things to happen! And thank God that they happen to me more than the rest of you! (end of loose paraphrase) |
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19 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 90913 | ||
Woops! The line that reads: I'm fairly sure that a persons fame (whether big or little) be used to test that.. nor a persons wealth Should have said this: I'm fairly sure that a persons fame (whether big or little) SHOULD NOT be used to test that.. nor a persons wealth |
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20 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 90912 | ||
[Part two of my response here:] 2. Divine healing. Anyone who honestly searches the scripture and has the slightest amount of the Holy Spirit illuminating scripture could never agree that God does NOT heal divinely ever! Nor can we say that every claimed "Faith" healing is 100 percent genuine, right? Again, it then becomes a situation where we must not encroach or hinder the genuine for fear of the false, but also be ready to test those situations which appear to be false. I'm fairly sure that a persons fame (whether big or little) be used to test that.. nor a persons wealth. Rather, is the Lord Jesus being glorified in it! The Father and the Holy Spirit seem very intent upon glorifying the Son, don't you agree? :) And Jesus seem intent on glorifying the Father and respectfully giving honor the Spirit to help us and bring forth the master plan of God's redemptive work. right? 3. Prosperity preaching. Well, this one gets a bit sticky, since it is very true that "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil". It is certainly the Lord's will that we be prosperous and provided for. However, I dare say that to many that have not matured through the work of the Spirit, that great blessing can be a very dangerous thing. God is wise and thus he is careful to test our stewardship before entrusting great wealth to us. It is in the Word. Those that are faithful, even more is given to them. To those that recieve much, much is expected. Great wealth carries with it great responsibility in dieing to self and living for Christ and his bride. right? Soo.... I have probably rambled far too much at this point. I figured I may as well lay out my hand on this matter and let the chips fall where they may. It has certainly been a pleasure to read all sides of this debate and to see the passion within the body of Christ! May my words encourage and build up. May I not be judged severely for any limitations of understandings I possess. May all who have come to this board seeking deeper understandings of our Glorious Lord and Savious Jesus, walk away with greater faith and trust in Him. May our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ grow! Be blessed! |
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