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Results		Verse	Author	ID#
1	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34711
	Greetings Lion "I'm not sure" is probably my best answer at this point. If "my trying harder" implies that the power comes from me, then I would say that this would raise a issue of God's sovereignty in my actions. But if, as you say, "my trying harder" is God acting out His will in my life, then you are probably right. I think the problem is in the wording. When I think of the words "my trying harder", I think of something in which the power is coming from me... I am the engine that is pushing. The reality is (and I think we agree) that God is the engine that is driving, and we are the rail cars, each responsible for part of the load. I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense, but its the metaphor that came to mind. I am curious what you thought of the rest of my previous post in terms of the theology of sovereignty? Blessings, Curt
2	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34620
	Greetings Brother Barry, I don't wanna work so I'm going to bang on this drum all day. Matthew 22 (Jesus speaking) 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." John 15 (Jesus speaking) 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. John 15 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Matthew 11 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. 27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Romans 8 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Predestined, called, justified, glorified... this is God's process for salvation and sanctification. Nowhere does it say predestined, called, ANSWERED, justified, glorified. The process involves God working His sovereign will. His grace is sufficient. No RSVP required. We get to go along for the ride... the result of His grace alone... not because we are smart enough to choose yes. Even our choosing comes from Him. Enjoying the thoughts... keep it up! Blessings Curt
3	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34619
	Hi Brother Tim That's a great answer, but I think I can challenge it. Unfortunately its too late tonight, and I'm in meetings all day tomorrow. But I'll get back to you shortly. Briefly, I think the verses which indicate that God hardened Pharoah, and chose Jacob (and hated Esau before he had been born) gives us some indication and are a few examples. There are others. Talk with you soon. Blessings til then Curt
4	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34585
	Hi again First of all, I read in one commentary that the word "men" is not in the earliest manuscripts, that it is merely implied... for whatever that is worth. Secondly, the "redefinition of the word all" is not based on a particular theology, but based on context and how it fits with the remainder of Scripture. I know you don't believe that Jesus is saying all men will be saved... only that all will be drawn. OK... what happens after they are drawn? Here is what Scripture (not theology) says: John:16 (Jesus speaking) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. God chooses. Mat 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." God chooses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. God chooses. James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. God chooses. 1 Peter 1 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. God chooses. 1 Peter 2 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. God chooses. Revelation 17:14 They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." God chooses. Genesis 18 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him." God chooses. Psalm 33 11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations. 12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance. God chooses. Psalm 106 4 Remember me, O LORD, when you show favor to your people, come to my aid when you save them, 5 that I may enjoy the prosperity of your chosen ones, that I may share in the joy of your nation and join your inheritance in giving praise. 6 We have sinned, even as our fathers did; we have done wrong and acted wickedly. 7 When our fathers were in Egypt, they gave no thought to your miracles; they did not remember your many kindnesses, and they rebelled by the sea, the Red Sea. 8 Yet he saved them for his name's sake, to make his mighty power known. God chooses. Ezekiel 20 5 and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I chose Israel, I swore with uplifted hand to the descendants of the house of Jacob and revealed myself to them in Egypt. With uplifted hand I said to them, "I am the LORD your God." God chooses. Romans 3 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." We are so blessed... Because God chooses us! Choosing means "To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out." Does this not imply that some are chose, some are not chosen, otherwise, what is the selection? When God chose Israel, did He not leave others unchosen? If not, then what did choosing Israel mean? God is sovereign and can choose whom He will for His sovereign purpose. Blessings Curt
5	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34574
	Blessings Brother Tim! - You said: "The whole argument of Romans 9 is not to exclude people, it is Paul's attempt to show that God is just to include people." And so Pharoah was (unchosen, de-selected, hardened) for (inclusion, exclusion) what??? Paul was saying that God chooses, period... and by the way, Gentiles, lucky you! You've been chosen! He juxtaposes chosen people with unchosen people, individuals and groups. To your statement: "God is just to include people"... If God is only just, then we are all doomed. If we are saved, it is only God's mercy that saves us, not His justice. Clearly, in Romans 11:30-32 God selects and deselects groups (meaning salvation) to serve His sovereign will, just as He did with individuals such as Pharoah, Jacob, Esau, Paul and many others. If I took your position to the extreme (which I know you don't), we end up with universalism... that God's grace and mercy were sufficient to save all men, and who are we to say that some won't be saved?... Isn't God's love infinite? I believe that Romans 9 is saying very directly that God's sovereignty is above all. We are all sinners and deserving of death. God chooses to save some (maybe many) but it is purely His call as to who is chosen, according to His divine will. I believe that Romans 11:30-32 supports this... the One doing the "binding" in verse 32 is who (God/man)? Blessings Curt
6	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34564
	Bro Tim I quote A.T. Robertson's Commentary... By "all men" (pantav) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luke 2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (verse 12:22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (14:6). --------------- Jesus is opening up the covenant of grace to "all men", not just the Jews. Blessings Curt
7	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34557
	How about Jacob and Esau as discussed in Romans 9? 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." God chose one not the other. Why? To serve His purpose in election (whatever that means). How can He do this? Because He is sovereign. And what is the lesson for us? Read on... 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. If that wasn't enough, Paul gives us more evidence, with Pharoah starring in subsequent verses: 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." God hardened Pharoah's heart to glorify Himself. God's explanation: 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Is that really fair? 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Back in the penalty box we go: 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Hard teaching, but I think it speaks to your question. All have sinned. None deserve salvation. God is sovereign and can choose to show mercy to whomever He chooses. If it is His will to choose some and not choose others, (and apparently it is), who are we to question God? And who can resist His will if He chooses us? Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Blessings Curt
8	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34552
	And yet... According to Paul, "no one seeks God". "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Romans 3:11 Can we hear Him knock unless God turns on our ears? Is not our faith itself a gift from God? You had asked, "Does this mean that the one that is being drawn has to accept the gift of Salvation?" I think when God chooses us... its a done deal. Jesus said, "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14 and... "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." John 15:16 Can we say "no" to His divine calling? Is He sovereign? or are we? My view is this: If left up to us, we'd choose wrong every time. God chose us, and boy am I glad! We may not understand it, but thanks be to God for His all-sufficient grace! ;-) Curt
9	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34546
	Lion, Regarding the extent to which God influences our "choices", here is some food for thought. My focus recently has been on the sovereignty of God... questioning in my own life whether I really view God as sovereign over everything in my life, or just over my salvation. Bear with me here, as this takes a bit to develop. First, as to our ability to seek after righteousness, Paul says: Romans 3 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. We cannot seek God unless He puts it on our heart to do so. Even after salvation, if we desire to do good, we are powerless to do it: Romans 7 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. After salvation, our power to be righteous comes from God's spirit within us: Romans 8 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; … 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Not only is it God's power, but we are controlled by His spirit Romans 1 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. Our obedience come from faith, not "self righteousness" (ie choosing to do good) Romans 3 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Our obedience (righteousness) is the result of His sovereign will: Philippians 2 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. God effects His will in and through us. 2 Corinthians 4 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. Paul teaches us that our power over the things of this world comes from God, not our own ability to do good. Ephesians 3 20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, Our righteousness is not evidence of "choosing wisely", it is evidence of God's power within us… His sovereignty. 1 Corinthians 2 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. Faith is the result of God's power, not the wisdom of men. Thus, that which flows from faith is also the result of God, not us. Galatians 2 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Our life is not one of wise choices, but one of faith... of Christ in us, living through us. Living a life of righteousness is not a matter of us making wise choices, but a matter of living by faith that "the one who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world". It is He who is our strength. Therefore, the key to "working out our salvation" is asking God for more faith... trusting that He is sovereign over my life and the world. It is not by my own power that I choose to do good, but by the power of Christ who lives in me. I ask myself... Do I really believe this, or do I try to do it all myself? If God is sovereign... really sovereign... why do I rely on me to overcome sin? It is He who is sovereign over my life, not me. If I rely on myself to make "right choices", am I not denying God's power and sovereignty? Should I not, rather, ask God for more faith and thereby rely on His power in my life to be righteous and holy? Finally, I will concede that, at some point, I must "choose" to do the right thing. But... and this is a big but... I think I have been operating under a misconception that "choosing to do good" is the result of my "trying harder", rather than the result of God's gift of faith and power working in me. I am coming to believe that this is a denial of God's sovereignty in my life, and the likely cause of my failure to overcome sin. The good news is that, whatever we ask in HIS name, He will give us. It seems to me that it is not a matter of aligning our will with His... its a matter of opening the door wide, letting Him in, and letting our will be replaced by His. Then righteousness happens. Thoughts? Curt
10	Geography of the Forum!	Acts 21:39	Curtnsally	34494
	Hank - Can you pull the string tighter... your last post was a little garbled! :-) Cheers Curt
11	Geography of the Forum!	Acts 21:39	Curtnsally	34493
	Hi Norrie - Update: Beth Ship yard was sold a few years back, and has actually been doing ok on a very small scale. Beth Steel is in Chapter 11, but contnuing to operate. Unions and benefits were a large part of the problem, but subsidized steel from overseas is a big part of the problem as well. We destroyed most of the steel-making capability of Germany and Japan in WW II, and then helped them build more efficient plants afterward. This put us at a competitive disadvantage. In recent years, the former Soviet bloc countries have been selling every natural resource they possess to gain hard currency. This includes lumber, steel, aluminum and similar goods. I see this because I am in the logistics business, and we unload ship after ship of these goods. The reality is that US labor will not work for a wage as low as third world countries. In the past, our superior efficiency helped bridge that gap, but as other countries develop efficient manufacturing capabilities, the demand for low cost goods drives the production of those goods off shore. The US has become primarily a marketeer for products made overseas, and is also a large consuming market of those goods. Unions, particularly in Maryland, are still shooting themselves in the foot and driving manufacturing away from this state. I know exactly where you are talking about in Patterson Park. The high side of the park has a great view from ground level and I'm sure its even better from a second story window. Blessings Curt
12	Geography of the Forum!	Acts 21:39	Curtnsally	34447
	I live on the north side of town in Lutherville. I have business operations on the east side of town not far from Patterson Park, and lot of folks who work with me live in that area. We also have a warehouse next to Beth Steel, which is really suffering right now... I'm sorry to say. Until they (the govt) do something about steel imports, Beth will have a tough time of it. Baltimore is a great town and we love living here. The politics are pretty weird, but other than that its a great place to raise kids. With Washington right down the road, we can shoot down to the Smithsonian on Sunday afternoons, or tour the monuments. And we don't have to live in DC! Weekends crabbing on the Chesapeake... can't beat it! Blessings Curt
13	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34445
	Here is another Tozer quote... (I think it might square with your theology): "Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which briefly stated means this, that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him; imperfect it may be, but a true work nonetheless, and the secret cause of all desiring and seeking and praying which may follow. We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. "No man can come to me," said our Lord, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him," and it is by this very prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him; and all the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: "Thy right hand upholdeth me." In this divine "upholding" and human "following" there is no contradiction. All is of God, for as von Hegel teaches, God is always previous. In practice, however, (that is, where God's previous working meets man's present response) man must pursue God. On our part there must be positive reciprocation if this secret drawing of God is to eventuate in identifiable experience of the Divine. In the warm language of personal feeling this is stated in the Forty-second Psalm: "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?" This is deep calling unto deep, and the longing heart will understand it." ------------------- Tozer was a CMA (Christian Missionary Alliance) pastor, a church with Calvinistic doctrine. He did strongly articulate that believers respond to God because of God. This follows the concept presented in Eph 2:10 (often not quoted with 2:8-9, but equally important). Ephesians 2 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Thus, we are not saved by our works, or anything we do, but we were created to do good works, that God might be glorified. Blessings Curt
14	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34442
	Greetings Lion I am not a "free willer" and was simply trying to explain the concept ... perhaps poorly. Since I am not a "free willer", I probably cannot do justice to the definitions, and as such, maybe I should let someone who is a "free willer" answer your question. There seem to be plenty around. I believe that we only come to Christ when God puts it on our heart to do so. My salvation is the result of God and His grace through Christ, period. I am the very fortunate beneficiary... not the initiator, not the chooser... I was chosen. Praise God fot that! Curt
15	do we have any free will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34372
	Zach But did you chooses to, or did the conductor throw you off for mis-conduct? Lol Curt
16	Does Christ stand alone for salvation??	Acts 4:12	Curtnsally	34367
	Greetings WAK I have read many of your posts, with disagreement over some... but I wanted to tell you that this post is the best I've seen. It embodies the struggle that many of us have "living in the world but being not of the world". I am a product of the 60s-70s and have spent 20 years trying to re-program and orient toward a life of holiness. This with mixed success for sure. To your original question... you asked about the salvation of folks who: - have faith in Jesus's salvation (grace) thru the cross -do some nice things for others (WORKS) - live somewhat better moral lives than their neighbor because of their faith - don't read the Bible, but trust in the main 3 or 4 messages - talk to Jesus (pray) usually only if something is very good or very bad. My first thought is that it is very risky to predict the salvation of others... I really think we need to let God decide that. If we want to look for clues for our own life, I turn toward verses like this: Matthew 7 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." I ask myself, am I bearing fruit? Am I doing the "will of the Father"? Can I know the will of the Father if I don't read His Word? Can I know the will of the Father if I don't talk to Him in prayer? Can I know the will of the Father if I am not in fellowship with others who are seeking to do the same? I agree that "image" is the golden calf of our time, and often just as much so in the church as outside. Does God care whether we wear a suit or a teeshirt to church? I doubt it. He does care whether we bear fruit. Proverbs 27:17 says, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." A significant help in my own life has been the "iron" of other Christians sharpening me, teaching me how to find and live in God's will. Ultimately, the spiritual battle boils down to this, "my will or God's will?". This is not very popular in modern American culture (or any culture for that matter). Christians need to sharpen each other so that we glorify God who has provided us the ultimate gift ... salvation. Blessings Curt
17	do we have any free will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34346
	OUCH! I'm jumpin in here, Zach and Hank. Is it not man's sin that punched our ticket to hell? God, in his mercy, gives us a transfer token. Curt
18	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34327
	Zach I was ok debating you... a little harder debating A.W. himself! I still am not 100 percent on this question, and will continue to work on it. Blessings Cur†
19	cut off	Rom 11:22	Curtnsally	34326
	Zach Just so I am clear... are you saying that this reading means one can be saved and then lose salvation individually? If so, how do you view the following: Matthew 10 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. John 10 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. Blessings Cur†
20	What is Free Will?	Bible general Archive 1	Curtnsally	34309
	Hi again! I see where you are going, but I think that we have to separate the question of salvation from other activities when we consider "free will" and "election". If one were to believe in the doctrine of election, that we are "elect" or "chosen" by God for salvation, that does not necessarily imply that we must be robots in other activities. Is that a fair distinction to draw? We can be elect in salvation and have free will to live and make choices beyond that. Thoughts? Cur† PS: I liked you cross so much, I plagerized it for my signature... if its ok with you!

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