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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Charlene the Mom Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Charlene the Mom | 35527 | ||
Dear Charis, part 2 Regarding your statements: “Jesus Himself is the stumbling stone to those who do not believe… Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.” and “Some may want the credit for 'choosing' Jesus, feel it was their 'decision' that saved them. They may even feel they have the ability to maintain this grace. Yet I know that Jesus initiated my salvation, and the victory is His alone! “ To choose as you have described is to wrap it in humanism, where the “choice”, definitely, remains in the realm of works not faith and is repulsive. I believe the truth of what you are saying can in part be found in Luke 13:26-28, “then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.” I know that you are correct in observing that some “want the credit for choosing.” And I feel that wanting/taking credit means that a) one does not understand who God is and what His great Mercy and Grace is all about, b) one is making a purely intellectual choice, which changes nothing on the spiritual and supernatural level and I could go on, but will not. The Luke 13 scripture describes a scene where people who have all the appearances of religion (even appear to be as an Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob) but they mistakenly think that THEIR choice and maintenance of grace, is what sustained them, and, therefore, “want the credit.” I do NOT believe that the power of salvation is in “my choice,” although I do believe that God requires it of me. It is humbling to me that God would go to all this trouble to generously require a choice on my part, even though he could do otherwise, per His sovereignty. The concept of choice is not to be used for disobedience, which is inherent in “wanting credit.” However, those that use the concept in just the way that you and I both find abhorrent are the ones that will find themselves “thrust out.” They will look like an Abraham, but as many of the Calvinistic writings say, no one will know until death ("No man," writes Christopher Ness, "may judge himself a reprobate in this life, and so grow desperate; for final disobedience (the only infallible evidence of reprobation) cannot be discovered till death." ('An Antidote Against Arminianism,' p. 51). As a matter of personal observation, there are those in all Christian traditions, which regardless of their words and/or works to the contrary are “choosing” in that ineffectual, arrogant way which is an abomination to God and, indeed, will carry “many souls to hell” as Spurgeon puts it. But as you have experienced, and I believe all TRUE believers experience, I can be no other than I am now. I cannot reject Him. And as you, I have spent time contemplating my rejection, my resistance. Even in my most dreaded moments, I am compelled by a God that loves me, showers mercy and grace upon me and yes, allowed me to come to a saving knowledge of Him through Christ Jesus. ALL credit goes to Him. I truly do understand the rationale for believing that a choice by man somehow demeans the belief in the Sovereignty of God. But because I believe in the Sovereignty of God, I cannot believe that my “interpretation” as others might call it or my belief in free will can undo the Will of God, nor can it keep me away from His Irresistible Grace. Sincerely by His Grace, Charlene |
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2 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Charlene the Mom | 35525 | ||
Dear Charis, I appreciate all that you are saying so much more than I can convey with this keyboard. Regarding my comments about “limited atonement” as a stumbling block you said: "ANY excuse to deny Christ is welcome. But if the Holy Spirit is working in their spirit, …is effective to save any lost soul." I agree. To fault Calvinistic thought with the ability to keep away those who might pursue Salvation (and effectively stop the consequent ensuing pursuit of God) is to say that Calvinistic doctrine can undo God and His Will. So, apologies all around if I implied such a fallacy. This point reminds me of an incident some years ago when the movie, “The Last Temptation of Christ” was in the movie theaters in this country. Many churches of many different denominations protested verbally and physically. I, tend, not to get too involved in militant efforts however benign; although I do feel that God would have me know what I believe regarding these kind of issues, so that if He provides an opportunity to share that belief, then I am ready for His service. But to get to the point, my husband said, “that the protests to the movie were unnecessary, because God needs no defense.” My mind went immediately to this scripture, “When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Permit even this." And He touched his ear and healed him. “ (Luke 22: 49-51). The principle is the same, in that, if a person used that movie to reject Christ, then he would use anything. To credit the movie with the power to cause someone to reject Christ or to be fearful of the same is ludicrous if we understand who God is. And we/I should “permit even this”. My discomfort with “it” (like denominational differences that I, in my stupidity, think could undermine His purposes) is irrelevant if I know that God is in charge absolutely. But having said that I am commanded to “permit even this”, I would still like to express my thoughts/convictions on some matters; hopefully, without offending or causing division in the elect body of Christ. Regarding your statement: “(Please don't liken Jesus to a judge in a beauty pageant. Actually, the idea that our choice or our works will sway Him to save us is much more like this worldly method!) “ In my defense, we agree, as my quote was "In actuality they will KNOW that it is/was NOT a beauty pageant" the key word being "not." I have more, but have passed the character limits. If you are wish you can read the rest on the next entry under this one. Sincerely by His Grace, Charlene |
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3 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Charlene the Mom | 35476 | ||
So Free will is "Satan's sovereign drug, which causes the soul to sleep in delusion, and the end of such delusion is death. "Free will," says Spurgeon, "has carried many souls to hell but never a soul to heaven." (from ARMINIAN ERRORS- From the tract, Another Gospel, by Rev. William MacLean, M.A.) Well, I guess this answers one of my questions on my previous note (Does Calvinism acknowledge any “free will” given to man by God?). You know, I really don't think free will and the Sovereignty of God are mutually exclusive. To me it is even more amazing that God knows, even orchestrates everything, and at the same time allows us free will. I mean who could accomplish something like this that is so far beyond our understanding? And I agree with the Rev. William MacLean in the article mentioned above on many points such as the fact that God can choose and reject whom He will, and that we all deserve NOTHING. He says "Arminians deny the total depravity of man, in that they hold that the will of man is free and has the ability to choose Christ and the salvation that is in Him. Well, (assuming that I am by association an "Arminian") I completely embrace the total depravity of man, and free will to choose Christ, but it is still God that gives the salvation which is in Christ. He appears to me to be jumping to conclusions that are not the only logical places to jump to. Well, even if no one reads this, I am more convinced than ever that God is everything He claims to be, even if it seems paradoxical to some. And if I go to Heaven or if I go to Hell, God is Sovereign. He is.(Exodus 3:14) |
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4 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Charlene the Mom | 35471 | ||
To John, Joe, Zach, Tim, Makarios, and all, Some thoughts/ questions: “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.” (James 4:8) and “If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. (2 Chronicles 15:2) implies that atonement and/or reconciliation is an offer to be acted upon or not acted upon with God responding to our action. How does Calvinism account for this apparent choice that God is waiting for us to make or not make? Does Calvinism acknowledge any “free will” given to man by God? I absolutely believe that God knows the end tally or, if you will, who the elect are/will be. Then what is the big drawn out hoopla of our existence all about? I believe that to accomplish "one" of His purposes, He requires that we choose Him “first.” And what is "one" of His purposes? Well, you might accuse me of adding to the scriptures, but, here goes anyway. I believe that the whole history of the earth is to give us the chance to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to "ourselves" that we have chosen to receive or not receive. So there can be no doubt that God is not some big meany God doing this to us. I believe that when every individual person stands before God, that there will be NO argument, because in less than one fell swooping moment, we/he will be aware of every chance God gave us/him, and what our response was to it. Many think on this side of death that they will be able to reason with God as why they deserve “heaven.” In actuality they will know that it is/was not a beauty pageant; but it was a choice, their choice, and not God’s choice. His holiness will require the choice to be honored. The problem that I see with Calvinistic doctrine is that it “sounds” like the elect are in like Flynn, and the others don’t have a chance in Hades. And whether we like it or not, the reality is that this presents a huge stumbling block to many in and outside the faith. Well, I hope my train of thought was not too hard to follow. I have enjoyed reading all the posts over the last couple of hours, so I hope you don't mind me adding something. |
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