Results 701 - 720 of 801
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Results from: Notes Author: jlhetrick Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
701 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153412 | ||
Good question: I am not an expert on the book of Revelation (or any other book for that matter) but I do not see a conflict with my earlier response and these verses. Let me give a response based on what I currently understand regarding this issue though. VS.4 says "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded..." It has been argued that these "souls" were in fact disembodied souls. That is, the souls of saints who have died though their physical bodies have not yet been ressurected. We see these same souls way back in Chapter 6 I believe. Rev 6:9(KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. So, have these "souls" been raptured, or are they disembodied souls awaiting the bodily resurrection? |
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702 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153511 | ||
Hi MJH, Let me jump in here with some feedback that I hope will be helpful. You wrote: Who says that the believer will be raptured rather than the non-believer. No where in scripture does it say which will go and which will stay. Jesus' parable states that two women will be in a field and one will be gone, but He does not say which. The scripture you quote here is not intended to identify "who" will be taken. Who is already understood, or can be identified after considering the scriptures in context. This portion of scripture is emphasising the suddeness at which the rapture will come. You wrote: First century Judaism (at least that I am aware of...) does not show any picture of the faithful leaving to be with God, but God coming to be with His people. Please be aware that Judaism and Christianity are two different things. Judaism doesn't even hold that Jesus Christ was the Messiah so their beliefs, whether in the first century or now, are irrelevant regarding this topic. Regarding your commentary on 1 Thess. 4:17; well Sir/Mam, I have to say you've lost me there. Perhapse context can help again here. Back up one verse and take verses 16 and 17 together. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. These two verses in context clears up your misunderstanding I hope. Actually, the "picture" here is God Almighty in the person of Jesus Christ "coming down from Heaven" not one earthly place to another. Now see "who" will be raptured: "The dead in Christ". These are those who have believed in Christ for salvation and who'se physical bodies have died. Then in verse 17, "we who are alive will be caught up in the clouds." The we here is referring to Paul, the writer, and the church to which he is writing (in otherwords, Christians). MJH, I hope this is helpful. Remember this. Always, always take the scriptures in context. And certainly never attribute meaning to scripture that is not indicated either specifically, or contextually with the rest of scripture. Approaching it in this way will be helpful in understanding. Jeff |
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703 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153574 | ||
MJH, What do "most view the rapture to be?" |
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704 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153606 | ||
MJH, I like the joke, can I use it? |
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705 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153611 | ||
OK, you challenged so I reply. Here is the scripture you wanted (or thought wasn't there). Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. Also, keep in mind that the original author (the Holy Spirit through Paul) had two "Certain people" He was targeting as audience. Paul's certain people in his time and you and me and those to come after if the Lord should delay. So you left out one very important criteria for interpretation. "How does this apply to me today" But the rest of what you said there was good. You were accurate on most of your basic history regarding paul and his time but, as for Paul continuing to practice the Jewish faith, I think your way wrong on that. He did continue to observe the law but only in that it revealed his sin to him (Romans 7:7 for example). But, he did not continue to practice the Jewish faith which absolutely declared obedience to the law a requirement for righteousness and demanded circumcision, as well as the observance of a whole array of events. Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Gal 4:11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain. (NASB) I'm like you and don't like to change my position unless I can be shown evidence to redirect me. I hope this helps Jeff |
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706 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153614 | ||
OK, you say here that you "do not know what MOST people view the rapture to be" and in your previous post you wrote: "Therefore it does not apply to what most view the rapture to be". I was just wondering what your view of most people's view was in your previous post. If in one post you know what most people's view is how can you not know what most people's view is in another post? Regarding resurrection being a part of the rapture, that is how I understand it as well. Regarding Rev. 20:4-5 this is a very difficult topic for me. I am currently in the beginning stages of a serious study of the book of Revelation and admit that I am more confused than when I started (having to let go of some traditonal understandings). There are multiple views that can be supported by scripture concerning prophecy of the book as well as the Millennium period. I know that God did not intend to confuse us and that the confusion comes through our own finite minds. Thanks for the dialogue Jeff |
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707 | 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 WHO? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181063 | ||
CDBJ, Though I have been aware of the differing thoughts regarding this "restrainer" and have read to a degree about it, I have never heard or read what you have presented. Interestingly, the Scriptures seem to support that the restrainer is Michael the archangel. In any case, the way you brought these passages to bear on the subject was very helpful and exciting reading. Thanks, Jeff |
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708 | 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 WHO? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181072 | ||
Hello Cuddle, I too appreciated CDBJ's post and believe that he might even be right regarding the identity of the "restrainer". But let us not forget that there are many bible scholars out there that do disagree with this. I believe that New Creature's comment regarding the Rapture should not be tossed aside. I had anxiously followed with the intention of bringing attention to the rapture if New Creature did not do it soon. The reason this is an important consideration is that it may actually be that you are reading into the verse somewhat. It is perfectly logical and theologically sound to consider that the "retainer" may in fact be the Holy Spirit. Arguing His omnipresence only makes sense if we are interpreting that the "taken away" to mean He, the retainer, will no longer be present. This would not hold to scrutinity of Scripture however, consider John 15:26. Jesus said "when the Helper comes..."whom I will send..." There has never been any debate (that I am aware of) that this passage is referring to the Holy Spirit (and Jesus refers to Him as "the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father). So was the Holy Spirit omnipresent at that time? The Scriptures teach that He is the third person in the godhead. He is God, without beginning and without end and His nature has not developed over time. What then are we to make of it? I suggest that just as Jesus has always existed, there was a time in time where he manifested in a new role when He was "sent" to be born of Mary's womb. There was also a time when He was "taken away" and there will be a time when He "returns". The same can be agrued regarding the Holy Spirit if He in fact is the restrainer. It may be that He was "sent" in the sense of fulfilling the restraining role and at a time in the future will be "taken away" (at the rapture) or removed from the task of that role. I hope this is helpful, Jeff |
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709 | 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 WHO? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181086 | ||
Hello again Cuddle, As I stated in my earlier post, I too lean toward the angel Michael being the restrainer after having read CDBJ's post. My post was in response to your focusing on John 14:16 and believing that New Creature's believing the Holy Spirit to be the restrainer was in conflict with that verse. My intent was to point out that NC's argument does not conflict with the verse based on the argument that I presented. As for the church being the restrainer, that is a long-standing position taken by some as well. I guess the best reply to that is, Christ is the head of the church, and the Holy Spirit is the person who empowers the church. We, the church, do nothing on our own. Following logically, I believe that saying the church is the restrainer would be equal to saying the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. Your thoughts, :) Jeff |
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710 | 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 WHO? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181088 | ||
Jesus didn't say the Holy Spirit would "remain" forever. He said that the Holy Spirit will "stay with you" forever. Again, I'm not arguing the identify of the "restrainer" just clarifying the text. God bless, Jeff |
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711 | 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 WHO? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181092 | ||
Yes, Cuddle thank you. I too looked up the Greek. But the question is, "stay", "abide", "remain" where? "with you" as it's stated in the verse. So regarding this, where will He remain in the rapture? It is already established by Scripture that the Holy Ghost is a person of the triune God. He is omnipresent. This promise in John does not effect that. He was present before as we see Him descending on Christ and leading Him into the desert after John baptized Him. We see Him over and over again in the OT. The promise in John 14:16 is that related to the work of the Holy Ghost in the ministry of the apostles and I believe all Christians. It has nothing to do with the existance of the Holy Ghost in all places in all time. He is omnipresent. So relating the verse to the question and topic at hand just isn't necessary and accomplishes nothing toward our understanding of who the "restrainer" is. This is the point I am trying to make. To establish that the Holy Spirit is not the restrainer requires a corroborated argument from Scripture as presented by CDBJ. Pointing to a verse out of context will not accomplish the task. I'm glad you do not see me as being 'arguementitive" because I certainly am not trying to be. How else do we adhere to 2Timothy 2:15 if not a careful consideration of the text. As far as I'm concerned you are a breath of fresh air on the Forum. Thanks for your contribution. God bless, Jeff |
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712 | 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 WHO? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181094 | ||
Hello Cuddle, Please don't take my words out of context. If my post was confusing to you, thank you for stating the obvious. but we must be careful not to make it a play on words. To clarify my point in the previous post. If the churuch is the restrainer (which neither of us are teaching and/or appear to believe) it would only be possible in that the Holy Spirit is at work in the church. We the people, the body of believers, would have no power what ever to restrain anything, including our own nature, much less the antichrist. Hope this clears up my position. God bless, Jeff |
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713 | Power of Michael the Archangel? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181116 | ||
Hello again brother Brian, I have always believed that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Honestly, because that's what I had always heard taught. I have said before that my walk with the Lord has been one of having to unlearn a lot of doctrine I had grown up with. Today may be an example of that. I do not wish to enter into the debate because I simply don't believe I can support an answer with Scripture at this point. I will refer you to post #181004 by our brother CDBJ. I will follow along with the more knowledgeable in my own search for understanding. Just a note though, my question to you was due to your apprent use of the Jude 9. The way you presented it, it appeared that you were of the opinion that Michael is not of sufficient power to be the restrainer. Thanks for your response, Jeff |
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714 | 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 WHO? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181117 | ||
Thanks CDBJ, I'm grabbing my board and surfing to the site as soon as I send this. Jeff |
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715 | Power of Michael the Archangel? | 2 Thess 2:7 | jlhetrick | 181154 | ||
Hello and thanks brother Tim. I agree that it is impossible to know for sure who the restrainer is, although some "guesses" are better supported from Scripture. Fortunately for me, at this time, the Lord has not put a burden on my heart and mind about it. It doesn't matter much to me who or what the restrainer is, especially knowing that, as you pointed out, the Lord God is in control of it all. Still, I somehow got involved in this thread (by posting of course) and have enjoyed the education on the matter. Personally, I love the fact that God's word has mysteries that can not be truly known completely this side of glory. For me, it is the journey in learning that I can not know all about something that teaches me so much. Again, thanks for your well articulated post. God bless, Jeff |
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716 | "Here I stand; I can do no other." | 2 Thess 2:15 | jlhetrick | 170938 | ||
Very well said Russ, Jeff |
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717 | do u tithe on unemployment checks | 1 Tim 1:8 | jlhetrick | 220614 | ||
Hello wordoer - you might also refer to Romans chapter 14. This short chapter gives additional insight into what both Brad and Beja have written in response. It seems as though you may have already determined for yourself, perhapse even before you asked the question publically. If that is the case, Romans chapter 14 seems to say that you (if you are speaking about yourself regarding the unemployment check) might go ahead and write out that check for ten percnet. I believe the Scripture is clear in stating that while a believer may be "weak" in that they still allow themselves to be bound by the law (and in this case a law given to another people for a specific purpose) it (observance of the law) is not sinful if it's done in honor of the Lord. I believe, however, that a belief that to observe this or any other law contributes in any way to righteousness would equate to sin as it would be attributing righteousness to something other than the finished work of Christ on the cross. Tithing was not first implemented by Israel at God's command. It was practiced by others prior. Where Israel was concerned, it was a "mechanism" of their economy (see/study the book of Leviticus). It may be true that some use the OT law of tithing to "limit" their giving to 10 percent because they believe they are commanded to do that. And so, in these cases, it may be that the NT teaching of "giving from the heart" means, to them, giving less than what they can afford to give and feelinig justified in the 10 percent. Still Romans 14 makes it clear that we have no right to pass judgment. Only God can truly judge anothers motives and heart. Remember that we are to be guided by the whole counsel of God, not a verse from hear and a verse from there that seems to suggest we are right. God bless, Jeff |
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718 | Adam and Eve Perfect or Flawed | 1 Tim 2:11 | jlhetrick | 208300 | ||
Lot of that goes on unfortunately! | ||||||
719 | Whats a womens place in the Church? | 1 Tim 2:12 | jlhetrick | 180255 | ||
You wrote: "I would also add that 1 Tim. warns against gnostic teachings.Women were prominent in Gnosticism and no doubt this was a temporary injunction to save the church from the very breath of suspicion" No doubt?? Careful! There is plenty of doubt and in fact, an issue that has been debated longer than the both of us have been alive. There is certainly doubt so be careful not to allow your speculations to be declared as fact or truth. Also be careful not to discount the literal by assigning an unmentioned or unimplied cause to it. People do it all the time and explain away things they don't like or understand by saying it has a "spiritual", "symbolic", or "culturally specific meaning. This is true of much in the Bible, however, the context will support it and it will be clearly demonstrated in most cases to the serious student. blessings, Jeff |
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720 | Whats a womens place in the Church? | 1 Tim 2:12 | jlhetrick | 180319 | ||
Wiley, Was your post meant for me? It doesn't appear to address anything in my post that your responding to. Jeff |
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