Results 581 - 600 of 801
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Results from: Notes Author: jlhetrick Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
581 | Church membership scriptural? | Heb 10:25 | jlhetrick | 169330 | ||
Hi Doc, Great point. I want to tag a question on to the end of the thread here. I have been following along with interest. Is it scriptural for there to be a "vote" by the lay membership of the church regarding the decisions and overall course the church takes? I ask this for the following reasons. Having traveled somewhat, I have been a member of several churches, and have also considered myself a "member" of more than one church that didn't have official membership. What I have seen in those churches of my experience that have membership, is that the majority is the leader. That is, the function of the church has become a democracy in which the majority vote rules. I personally have seen Pastors powerless to effect the corse and powerless to make decisions regarding when and how money is spent, who will hold positions of leadership in the local church, etc., etc. Is this scriptural. If God has called someone to pastor a church, does that not mean that God has called that person to lead the church? I personally have seen major decisions made in the church that were contrary to the pastor's and the majority of the decons desired direction. Why? Because the majority of the lay-persons voted differently. This is very often an issue of popularity, or even of rebellion because long-time members are unsatified with the pastor regarding something that has nothing to do with the vote at hand. Sometimes it is a unsatisfaction regarding a personal issue and not a church matter at all. If this approach is scriptural, I will submit to it gladly, but as I currently understnd the scriptures, it is not scriptural. I find no notion of a democracy in the church body presented in the word of God. Where we do see a system of voting, it is the leadership doing so as a process of replacing the lost Judas. And then it is not a vote, but a casting of lots (which was accepted at the time as a way of determining the will of God). And then only after Peter (who we might rightly consider the pastor of this congregation) gave the criteria (without a vote) of who could be considered. (Acts 1 beginning in verse 15). Is there any other example of voting, and does it include lay-persons voting major decisions? I appreciate feedback from everyone who has something constructive to say about this. Thanks in advance, Jeff |
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582 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169328 | ||
Hello Brother Tim, Thanks for the book recommendation. I actually have four books I am reading right now, but I will definately put this on my to read list. Thanks, Jeff |
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583 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169315 | ||
Hi Kalos, Yes, I agree. One thing I am thankful for is that the Lord is making a change in me. I believe He is helping me to be more patient and more diligent in my search for the truth. He has also blessed me, along with a lot of others, with the forum. It has truly been a help to me in my learning and coming to a better understanding. You are one of those who have helped me greatly. Along with Doc, Mark Seyler, humbledbyhisgrace, Tmoran, Searcher, and others. Not that I always agree with you and these others, as they do not always agree with me. But the love and patients on the forum creates a safe environment to get it wrong and be redirected and nurtured in a loving Christian way (most of the time). I realize that God did not reveal His truths to us in a way that one must be a highly educated person with a command of the original biblical languages. But to have so many who have put time and effort into different areas, come together in one place; is a good example of what God intended concerning our call to serve one another. Thanks for all that you contribute here for the forum, and for me personally, Jeff |
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584 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169279 | ||
Hi Kalos, I agree, and not only the ordinary definitions, but how the bible defines them and what it teaches regarding them. Thanks, Jeff |
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585 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169251 | ||
Hi Kalos, thanks. This explanation is something I am familiar with. I guess the question here would be; does God decree something He does not desire or wish to happen? The answer may be yes. I don't know. Another question might be, where concerning God, would we assign meaning to this as being no more than His "mere wish"? I would agree with you that the single verse you quoted supports your premise. However, there continues the problem. The doctrine of election does not allow for choice as I am understanding it at this point. What you state you believe based on this verse (not saying that you don't have much more context that supports your belief) is in conflict also with the doctrine of salvation by grace alone (again, as I am understanding it at this point). That is, God's grace is not enough unless coupled with my choice. Actually, this is exactly how I grew up hearing it and believing it. But as I continue to study the doctrines of Grace, Predestination, Election, and God's Sovereignty, I am having problems putting it all together. Thanks again for you input, and thank everyone for your patience, Jeff |
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586 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169246 | ||
Your right Mark, Thankfully we can rest in the knowledge that we do have. That God is perfect and His ways are perfect, and He didn't miss any details. I believe that when we are finally with Him in eternity, many of us will likely be surprised at how much of it we actually had wrong. Regardless of this particular issue, I believe that God has called me, and whether my choosing has anything to do with it, I freely choose Him anyway. I'm thankful. I'm grateful. Peace and Love, Jeff |
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587 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169243 | ||
Hello Mark, Thanks brother, for the input. This seems to illustrate my point, or should I say, my struggle in understanding; an apparent contradiction as seen through the eyes of this fallible man. I rest in my confidence in the scriptures, however, that there are no contradictions, only lack of knowledge and understanding on the part of men. You write: “So then why oh why would He not choose all of those whom He would like to be saved for salvation? The only way this makes sense is if there is another criteria involved in God's election beyond His independant wish for man. There must be another qualifier. “ ”Some will raise the cry that this offends His sovereignty, but not if He has decreed it to be that way. He always plays by His own rules.” I would agree with you that there is no imposition on God’s sovereignty if in fact He did decree “another criteria….beyond His independent wish…” But do we find this in scripture? Thanks for your insight and the verses for consideration. Of course, I have considered these verses along with many more. For example, here is another that seems to suggest that there is no other criteria, and that God’s decree was and is consistent with the commonly held understanding of the doctrine of predestination/election. Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED to eternal life believed. ESV (emphasis added) Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed. KJV (emphasis added) This one is tough to explain in contradiction with the doctrines of election and predestination. Personally, I haven’t seen anyone try. God bless and continue to work toward deeper understanding as I do also, Jeff |
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588 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169232 | ||
Hello AO, Always feel free to "butt-in". I always appreciate any feedback I can get. Yes, this was my point. What you have presented here, including the verses, is one side of the difficulty. I appreciate your input. But you wrote: "Please excuse my butting-in, but I believe the reconciliation of God's desire for all to be saved and the fact that few are is explainable by one thing: choice." But that was not what I indicated as my struggle. My struggle is reconciling the issue between God's will for all to be saved, and the doctrines of election and predestination. The general question being: If God desires that all be saved, then why is it that all were not elected/predestined to salvation? Please understand that I ask the question as a starting point for my own search for understanding (and because it is legitimately there in my mind), and not as a means of bringing doubt on any established doctrine; and certainly never in an attempt to call something contradicting. The word of God has no contradictions in so far as the Truth is condidered. So, Choice, Free Will, Election, Predestination, etc., etc., All are taught in the bible. All are true. How they all work together, or, what is true about them as they relate, is the understanding that I am working toward. I have spent years considering these issues. I have spent a significant amount of time under various preachers and teacher, and have read a considerable amount of literature that comments on these things. Much of it has become clear to me and my understanding grows continually. But many mysteries remain. Finally, on the surface your "reconciliation" appears logical and has some basic scripture to support it. Are you aware that there are a considerable number of bible scholars and theologians that disagree with your findings? Furhtermore, are you aware that long-established christian doctrines diagree with you? Thanks again for your post, Jeff |
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589 | Math chpt 5. need blance..... | Bible general Archive 3 | jlhetrick | 169223 | ||
Hello Mark, Great post. You explained the essence of grace and love very well. Jeff |
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590 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169183 | ||
Hi Kalos, Thanks for the response. It's interesting; you write: "it is my view that commissioning a thing and enabling us to do a thing does not guarantee that the thing will get done by everyone and to/for everyone for whom it is meant. God has commanded and enabled us to do many things, but are they accomplished universally, i.e. in or by every believer? No, they are not." It is along these lines that I continue to have one of my most significant struggles with understanding something about God and scripture. In the bible it says that it is God's will that all be saved. Yet we know from the bible that all will not be saved. How can this be, that God's clearly stated will, will not come to pass? And when we consider the doctrines of election and predestination, how do we reconcile them with God willing that all be saved? I have read the commentaries, books on theology and doctrine, forum posts, and been involved in many face-to-face discussions. Certainly I have grown in my understanding, but honestly, a lot of what I believe in a lot of areas, is based on faith alone, and not a clear understanding of how certain doctrines have been arrived at. I am completely secure with my belief that the bible is the very word of God and our only source for truth and revelation of God. There is still so much that I don't grasp. I trust that He will reveal what He intends to reveal to me in the appropriate time and servings that He knows is best. That's comforting. I can only continue to work toward a deeper level of faithfullness in my study and seeking Him. Look forward to continuing to follow your postings, Jeff |
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591 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169156 | ||
Yea, what you said. This is a good example of how we can become focused on something that is not really the essense of what the apparent point, or message is. As I hoped my previous post pointed out. It is of no consequence whether what was heard was a voice, sound, or whatever. What we now know after looking a little deeper here, is that they were not communicated with as Saul was. And as for opinion as to which English word is best for the translation, we are safe to disagree there too. After all, the translators of the various bible versions chose different words, and they are/were all far more capable of translating the Greek than the both of us. Keep up the good work and always helpful contributions to the forum. In Christs Love, Jeff |
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592 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169153 | ||
Dear brother Steve, I meant to include this in my last response to you, and clicked submit before adding it. I just wanted to say that I truly appreciate your posts. whether your are asking a question or offering a response, your posts are always uplifting and encouraging. You are among those on this forum that truly represent the love and grace of our wonderful and holy God. You are a blessing to me, and to the forum. Sincerely, Jeff |
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593 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169150 | ||
Hello brother Steve, Thanks for reading my post and responding. This is one of those passages (like so many others) that require some word study and context to really get a grip on. In Acts 9:7 we might have a common use of language that is misinterpreted (according to which version you are reading). The KJV for example, agrees with you in using the word "voice" to describe what those with Saul heard. The NIV, on the other hand, translates the word "sound". this would not necessarily be inaccurate on either translation nor a contradiction. For example. If we were in a room togther and you heard a knock on the door and recognized it as a knock, yet I heard it but did not recognize it as a knock at the door; you might later explain that we both heard the knock at the door. I maight report that I heard a "sound". In any case, here is how Strong's explains the word in question here. NT:5456 NT:5456 phone (fo-nay'); probably akin to NT:5316 through the idea of disclosure; a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by implication, an address (for any purpose), saying or language: KJV - noise, sound, voice. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) So the word might rightly be interpreted in the English as "noise", "sound", or "voice". As for biblical context: We have a clue why voice may not be the best choice of interpretation. Acts 22:9 9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. KJV So when considering this event in light of what else scripture (and Paul himself) has to say about it specifically, we find that, in fact, those with Paul did not hear what Saul heard. They did hear a sound, whether it was recognizable as a "voice" is not what is important regarding the essence of my previous post. What we do know, is that whatever they heard, there was no communication to them in the hearing. They did not understand it. This should sufficiently answer your last question regarding whether these others were called or not. They were not, at least at that time, as Paul articulates in Acts 22:9. We might note, however, that these same men escorted Paul to Damascus and very likely continued with him for a time. It's possible that some or all of them were eventually called and saved (this may be referred to in scripture but I am unaware of it). Hope this helps clarify my understanding. Jeff |
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594 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169128 | ||
Greetings Kalos, This is certainly a question worthy of consideration for all Christians. Exactly what is called for and expected of us regarding what many consider our greatest responsibility toward men. Personally, I have always heard it preached and taught to mean that EVERY individual will hear and have the opportunity to believe. That the “great commission” in fact is the command to go and tell every individual the good new of Christ. Not my understanding at all however, and not, I believe, consistent within the context of scripture as a whole. Some points to ponder: 1. While it is true that today’s technology offers significant opportunity to reach the masses in a way never imagined in biblical times, it falls far short of being able to speak to every individual. Hundreds of thousands of people live without the most simple means of communication such as telephone, radio, television. Many of those are also unable to read and write even in their own language. In spite of the advances of technology, we continue to be unable to locate some individuals, even ones that we know by name and are seeking (e.g., Osama Bin Laden). One may argue, he does not want to be found. The same is true for many individuals concerning the gospel. 2. Consider the conversion of Paul (Saul). It was a very dramatic event. He was not alone. Yet in the company of men, he was the only one to hear the “voice” and “words” of Christ and be called. Why did the Lord not give all who were there the opportunity to hear and believe on that dusty road to Damascus? We can wonder, but it is not our place to question who and why God calls this one and that one He does not. 3. One more point. Consider the words of Jesus spoken to the twelve when he sent them out to the people: Mat 10:12 As you enter the house, greet it. Mat 10:13 If the house is receptive, let your blessing of peace come on it. But if it isn't receptive, let your blessing of peace return to you. Mat 10:14 If no one welcomes you or listens to your words, as you leave that house or town, shake its dust off your feet. Mat 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!" Jesus doesn’t tell them to make personal contact with each and every person in the towns, or even in the specific houses for that matter. Quite the contrary. When asking the question: “what does ‘This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations...”, what is the best answer supported by scripture? Simply, that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the WHOLE WORLD, and to ALL NATIONS. Since it doesn’t say -to every person- then we shouldn’t attempt to make it say that. This should not, of course, keep us from the effort of reaching as many as each of us INDIVIDUALLY can however. It has not been given to us to know that this one has been called and empowered to believe and that one has not. My once and a half cents worth, Jeff |
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595 | Questions I'm trying to answer | Joshua | jlhetrick | 168968 | ||
Hi Doc, Thanks for joining in. You might try applying the method to the writing on the back of a cereal box. I haven't tried it myself, but I read somewhere that you can get that to say just about anything as well. That is, if your creative enough with rearranging and reapplying the code to make something work out. Jeff |
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596 | Questions I'm trying to answer | Joshua | jlhetrick | 168954 | ||
OK Mark, and thanks for the dialogue. I do want to say though, that I believe this issue is one of greater importance than just one of us being right and one wrong. Actually, it's of greater importance than you and me period. I also believe that it is an issue of more than "pro's" and "con's". I do not at all consider it a "minor matter". Never should we consider the word of God minor; and to "tinker" with it, I'm sure is something that He does not consider a minor thing. I would encourage you to forget about "codes" (not that i believe you put a lot of stock in it in the first place) and continue with your otherwise apparent, sincere study of what is plainly written in the scriptures themselves. With Love, Jeff |
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597 | Questions I'm trying to answer | Joshua | jlhetrick | 168901 | ||
Hello pabrain, Thanks for taking the time to email me and respond. I got the email, and actually have visited the site before and have taken time to evaluate it briefly. If you will read my recent response to Mark that should suffice as a response to this post of yours (including the ending remarks). Jeff |
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598 | Questions I'm trying to answer | Joshua | jlhetrick | 168900 | ||
OK Mark, I still haven't had time to search the archives on this yet. I think you have been mislead, how, I do not know. I think what's important is that as Christians, we are to accept no teaching that doesn't line up with the teachings of scripture. I don't find the scriptures teaching, or even hinting that there are "codes" in the bible. As for the apologetic benefit of such a notion, I don't see the need for that either. It is God Himself who establishes His word as true. It is the word of God itself that establishes istelf as authentic. Did God look down the corridor of time and anticipate that He would need to hide codes within His word that would some day be discovered by man that His word would be authenticated? I don't believe so. I believe He, in his mercy and grace, provided faith for that. Let me say, I respect and appreciate you and your opinion, even when we disagree. Jeff |
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599 | Questions I'm trying to answer | Joshua | jlhetrick | 168859 | ||
Thanks Mark, I may be wrong, you may be right. I know little or nothing about codes and such. I don't believe God did any such thing. I think God simply gave us His word in scripture. For the saved, who have the Holy Spirit, we can no from the plain language (which ever language is translated) the messages that God intended to convey. I don't believe that ther are "secret codes" hidden within blocks of texts that give us deeper understanding or any such nonsense. I'm guessing with all the silliness regarding "bible codes" that has come out over the years, much has been posted on "studybibleforum". When I have time, I will do a search and see what other's have to say on the topic. It should make for some interesting reading. Thanks again for your response. PS ebrain, if your still following along, I still would like to know your position on bible codes. I am always interested in your and Mark's feedback because I have come to appreciate and respect both of you, even when we disagree. Jeff |
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600 | Questions I'm trying to answer | Joshua | jlhetrick | 168857 | ||
Hi Mark, Thanks for your "2 cents worth". Your posts are always worth at least that much. Just kidding. I always appreciate your posts and your insight and wisdom. To be honest though, I really didn't get your point on this one. I think you wrote it in "code". Just kidding again. but I really didn't get where you were coming from on this one. Jeff |
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