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341 | Does Heb 6 support "always saved"? | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 90028 | ||
For it is impossible. There are sins that have no forgiveness (Matt. 12:31, 32). There are Apostates who can never find a place for repentance, not because of the failure of God's mercy, but because they have destroyed their moral capacity for a heartfelt repentance. Usually the most hardened sinners are apostates. Were once enlightened. Had the light of the Gospel. See John 8:12. Have tasted. Experienced. The heavenly gift. The new life in Christ. Christ "giveth life unto the world" (John 20:31). Partakers of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit of God is sent into the heart of all sons (Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8:9). . And have tasted the good word of God. Fed on that word which is food for the soul. The powers of the world to come. The miraculous gifts of the Spirit. The world to come is used in the sense of the Christian dispensation. . If they fall away. Apostasize from the faith. To renew them to repentance. He is so far fallen that he has no capacity left for repentance. Judas the Apostate sorrowed, but his sorrows became despair. There was remorse but not repentance. Crucify . . . the Son of God afresh. By rejecting Christ they place themselves with those who rejected him and crucified him because he affirmed that he was the Son of God. Those meant are not those "overtaken in a fault," or backsliders only, but men once Christian professors who not only turn away from but oppose Christ. (Heb. 6:4-6) The Peoples New Testament - B.W. Johnson 1891) New Creature |
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342 | Does Heb 6 support "always saved"? | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 90027 | ||
Emmaus the word "enlightened" comes from the Greek word photizo. This word refers to spiritual enlightenment. And it is not possible that it can refer to baptism as you say, since baptism does not bring spiritual enlightenment or illumination. No where in strongs definition of Bibical words do I find baptism ever used as a definition for enlightenment New Creature |
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343 | Are we Stupid or Lazy? Our Soul at stak | Rom 14:12 | New Creature | 89621 | ||
Amen God Bless you also New Creature |
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344 | Please provide responses to these verses | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89476 | ||
Doug You said you have to believe Scripture. So then believe this, because it comes from God's word; Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: God commands all men everywhere to repent. Not my words. "In the things which God cannot do category is this; God cannot do our repenting for us. God has commanded all men to repent. It is a work which only they can do. It is morally impossible for one person to repent for another. Even Christ could not do this. He could die for us, but He cannot do our repenting for us. God in His mercy may incline us to repent (the goodness of God leads us to repentance) and by His inworking Spirit assist us to repent; but before we can be saved we must of our own free will repent toward God and believe in Jesus Christ. Another thing God cannot do; He cannot believe for us. Faith is a gift of God, to be sure, but whether or not we shall act upon that faith lies altogether the decision we must make using our free will. Repent and believe is the order. Faith will follow repentance, and salvation will be the outcome." (A.W. Tozer) Only those who by the goodness of God are led to repentance (Rom. 2:4) and follow through with God's command to repent (Acts 17:30) are granted the gift of repentance. (2 Tim. 2:25-26) So let me ask you one question; Did God do your repenting for you? Or did you personally need to repent of the sins you committed? Finally, It you still want to cling to the teaching of "once saved, always saved" then you will have to reconcile this from God's word with the rest of Scripture which you suppose supports that cherished teaching. But as you stated; "the Bible doesn't contradict itself" and by the way, I agree. So then since we both agree that the Bible never contradicts itself. Explain the following verses taken directly from the word of God. From the New Testament For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) From the Old Testament Ezek. 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. In His Service New Creature |
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345 | Are we Stupid or Lazy? Our Soul at stak | Rom 14:12 | New Creature | 89470 | ||
Amen Hank isn't that the sad truth God Bless you New Creature |
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346 | Are we Stupid or Lazy? Our Soul at stak | Rom 14:12 | New Creature | 89413 | ||
graceful I enjoyed this post you asked; "Why do people ALWAYS turn to people for the interpritation of Gods word?" I have recently had those same thoughts myself. The reason I came up with is, because out of laziness, or what some people say, I haven't got time, I'm too busy, they allow others to do all the work of studying for them, and then just blindly accept what men say Scripture means. However you and I both know, that Scripture does not always mean what men say it means. But people accept what these men say. Maybe part of the reason people accept what men say as true is due to how many PHD's or initials of doctorates a person has after his name. I mean shouldn't these learned men know what the Bible truly says? Unfortunately not always. Someone once commented that it takes a man four years as a Seminary student to be taught that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says. From experience,I have come to believe that statement. In His service New Creature |
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347 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89412 | ||
Sure I can agree to disagree. May the Holy Spirit be your guide as you study God's written word, and help you to be open and teachable. Keep your eyes on Jesus In His service New Creature |
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348 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89400 | ||
Please note that in Heb. 6:4-6 the more correct reading is: For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) The objector will frequently make much of the word IF found in verse six, and say that he is only speaking hypothetically. "He is only saying 'if' he falls away which really can't happen." From what I understand the word "if" was inserted into the King James Translation by a person named Theodore Beza who was a disciple of John Calvin, and there is no justification for it whatsoever in the Greek. kai does not introduce a condition clause. The reason why there is an ?if? there is due to the fact that many interpret the participle, to be a conditional participle. What it literally says is, and having fallen away.? Daniel Wallace comments on this in his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (ISBN: 0310218950) page 633: Parapesontas is often construed as conditional (a tradition found in the KJV and repeated in most modern translations and by many commentators). But this is unwarranted. The construction of vv 4-6 approximates a Granville Sharp plural construction (the only difference being that with the second participle in the construction, geusamenou in v 4, the conjunction te is used instead of kai: tous fotisthentas geusamenou te kai metocous genhthevntas kai geusamenous kai parape-sontas). If this participle should be taken adverbially, then should we not take the preceding two or three participles the same way? The inconsistency has little basis. Instead, parapesontas should be taken as adjectival, thus making a further and essential qualification of the entire group. A better translation, then, is "It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have fallen away." Further more; there is no conditional participle present in the Greek text to support any claims that the word “if” in Heb. 6:6 was in the original text. The writer in Hebrews simply says to us …. kai parapesontas – “and they have fallen away” (second aorist active participle). The Greek conjunction “kai” usually means “and” has an adversative force here, meaning and yet. The writer is saying “they had all these blessings and yet in spite of all this, they have still fallen away” (A.T. Robertson) The NEB translates the phrase, “and after all this” There is nothing in either the language or the context to indicate that the instances of apostasy cited in Heb. 6:4-6 are only hypothetical. Those who hold to the unconditional eternal security position take this text to say that “this is not a warning of apostasy, but rather a warning against imagining that apostasy is possible.” Their reasoning comes from Paul’s statement “But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you.” They fail to reckon with the transition from the third person (those, they, and them) in verses 4-6 to the second person (you) in verse 9. The writer is persuaded of better things for “you” not “them” Also Some have tried to soften the meaning of Heb. 6:4-6 by saying that the writer is speaking in an exaggerated tone, and that “impossible” really means “very difficult” However there is no hint that this is so. In fact, every other occurrence of “impossible” in Hebrews could not possibly mean “very difficult” Heb. 6:18 states that “it is impossible for God to lie” In Heb 10:14 the removal of sin by the blood of bulls and goats is said to be impossible In Heb. 11:6 “without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore “impossible” could not be intended to mean “very difficult” I hope you will prayerfully read the text from the NASB and consider the above comments concerning Heb. 6:4-6 In His service New Creature |
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349 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89395 | ||
you state that I must not understand what Eternal life is. The fact life is "eternal" does not prove we cannot lose it. "Eternal" describes the nature of the life. It has nothing to do with whether it can or cannot be lost. One of the most commonly presented arguments given in defense of the teaching of "once saved always saved" goes like this: When one gets saved, he receives eternal life. If that life could be lost, it wouldn't be eternal! Therefore, once a person is saved, he is always eternal life was eternal even before a saved person ever possessed it. Does it not follow then, that eternal life will still remain eternal, even if one doesn't continue to possess it. “Proponents who deny that salvation can never be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin's lamp can go out; (Matt. 25:8) that no promising harvest be chocked with thorns; (Matt. 13:22) no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from fruitfulness; (John 15:6) that no name blotted out of God's book! (Rev. 3:5) They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; (mat 5:13) that nobody can ever "receive the grace of God in vain"; (2 Cor. 6:1) bury his talents' (Matt. 25:25) "neglect such great salvation"; (Heb. 2:3) "look back" after putting his hand to the plow. (Luke 9:62) That Nobody can "grieve the Spirit" (Eph 4:30) till He is "quenched," (1 Thess. 5:19) nor "deny the Lord that bought them" nor "bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Pet. 2:1 That Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. Rev 3:16 They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found; that if one falls, he never stood. If one was ever cast forth, he was never in and if one ever withered, (John 15:6) he was never green. And that if one draws back, (Heb 10:38) he never had anything to draw back from. That if one ever falls into spiritual darkness, he was never enlightened; that if you again get entangled in the pollutions of the world, (2 Pet. 2:20-22) it shows that you never escaped. That if you put salvation away, you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of your faith, (1 Tim. 1:19-20) there was no ship of faith there. In short they say: If you get it, you can't lose it: and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning.” (John Wesley) If you want unconditional eternal security, you can have it. It is in Christ, on a day by day, moment by moment basis. Because of what Scripture say, I personally believe that; "Once saved, always saved" is a false gospel and counterfeit grace message built upon partial truths presented as the whole truth. In His service New creature |
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350 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89392 | ||
I reviewed all Scripture you posted. Actually if I reviewed those verses once I reviewed them a thousand times previously. Only problem is, I believe you need to reconcile other Scripture as well before you say that "once saved, always saved" is an absolute Bibical teaching. Verses such as; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) Ezek. 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. How do you reconcile these verses with the rest of the verses you posted. In my opinion "once saved, always saved" as taught by many today is a theological invention of man. In His service New Creature |
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351 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89299 | ||
nivlac5 I am just now getting around to responding to the flood of replys I have had on the topic of "once saved, always saved." Let me just breifly say that my opinions concerning this topic, are formed by God's word, not man's opinions, or denominational slants or bias. God's word plainly says: For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Heb. 3:12) If a man abide not me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6) Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. many who embrace "once saved, always saved, often skip over such Scriptures when teaching or while spending personal time in the Bible because such do not fit (or better yet, cannot fit) into their theology and, therefore, they simply do not know what to do with these awkward passages. They are thrown into a temporary state of confusion when confronted with them! In His service New Creature |
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352 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89297 | ||
John In 2 Pet 2:20-22 I notice especially in verse 22 it says; "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Notice what the text says about these mentioned sows; the sow was (past tense) washed" Does not "wash" mean to have been made clean? If that is the case, and I believe it is then, I don't see how we can describe those mentioned in 2 Pet 2 as mere professors or pretenders. In His service New Creature In His service New Creature |
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353 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89295 | ||
gracefull I have enjoyed reading your replys to this topic. Concerning your comment; "we need to become willing to lay asside our theology and remain open and teachable by the Holy Spirit." to that I give a hearty Amen. I just have one comment that comes into play whenever, I read 2 Pet. 2:20-22 In verse 22 it says: "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." What stands out in that verse is the mentioned fact about the sows, the fact that they had been (past tense) "washed" In my understanding "washed" means to have been made clean. I would like your thoughts on this Just something I thought I'd pass along to you In His service New Creature |
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354 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89293 | ||
Dear Joseph I am just now begining to catch up on my mail, and I interestingly read your take on the the text from 2 Pet. 2:20-22 that Matt asked you about If you would please, I would like you to comment further, on verse 22 where it says; "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Especially the part where it says, "the sow was (past tense) washed" What is the meaning of washed in this verse. Does it mean was (past tense) made clean. Or does it mean something completely different in your opinion? You didn't seem to comment on that part of the verse. In His service New Creature |
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355 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89288 | ||
John As I was reading your reply to Andrew the following statement you made jumped off the page. "Remember this my friend, when you stand before for God Himself, no excuses for not believing will be acceptable to Him." How about the excuse - I was never chosen to be one of the elect? According to the theological stance of some denominations, could this not be a legitimate excuse, for those who accept the teaching that God chose to only save a limited number of those whom He created. In His service New Creature |
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356 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89286 | ||
I thought it might be helpful to include a comment on John 15:6 from Adam Clarkes Abridged Commentary on the Bible. "Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to Him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire, because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of His God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united; it is absurd, and contrary to the letter and spirit of the metaphor, to talk of being "seemingly" in Christ - because this means nothing. If there was only a seeming union there could be only a seeming excision. So the matter is just where it began; nothing is done on either side, and nothing said to any purpose. He is cast forth. Observe that person who abides not in Christ in a believing, loving, obedient spirit, (1) is cut off from Jesus, having no longer any right or title to Him or to His salvation. (2) He is withered - deprived of all the influences of God's grace and Spirit. (3) He is gathered - becomes (through the judgment of God) again united with backsliders like himself and other workers of iniquity. And being abandoned to his own heart and Satan, he (4) is cast into the fire - separated from God's people, from God himself, and from the glory of His power. And (5) he is burned - is eternally tormented with the devil and his angels, and with all those who have lived and died in their iniquity. Love in Christ Jesus New Creature |
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357 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89164 | ||
Jibbs I agree with you those who are truly saved will live a life of obedience. I never said otherwise. True persevering and enduring faith, will prove to be genuine, and give evidence to it's genuineness by works and the fruit which it naturally produces. We are not saved by works, but faith produces the works. Good works can never earn salvation, but they must accompany it. Also Jesus Himself said; “My brothers and my sisters are those that HEAR God’s word and PUT IT INTO PRACTICE.” Luke 8:21 NIV You said you find my usuage of Hebrews 6:4-6 to be most curious. All I did was post it, because it is probably one of the most often quoted passages used to prove that "once saved, always saved" is not a Bibical teaching. So I will repost it, so you might be able to tell me in your opinion what it says. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) Finally you ask if I have ever fallen away? My answer is no, but I know some who appear to have, and have read stories of others who have. I have backslidden, at times, but thats not the same as a complete departing or apostasing away from the faith which when it happens that person cannot be renewed again. (Heb. 6:4-6) If you need more Scripture other than what I have already provided you with to prove that "once saved, always saved" as is being taught by many today is not Bibical, let me know, and I will also provide other Scripture for you to check out. Love in Christ New Creature |
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358 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89125 | ||
Jibbs Your right Scripture does not exist in a vaccuum. Thats why I don't use John 15 only to support why I believe "once saved, always, saved" as many are teaching it these days is unBibical. we also have Scripture such as John 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended (John 16:1) KJV I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away. (RSV) I HAVE told you all these things, so that you should not be offended (taken unawares and falter, or be caused to stumble and fall away). (AMP) I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. (ESV) These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. (NKJV) These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not lose faith. (21st Century King James Version) I have told you these things so that you will not turn back. (Worldwide English New Testament) I have told you this so that you will not give up your faith (TEV) 4624 skandalizo (skan-dal-id'-zo) ("scandalize") from 4625; TDNT - 7:339,1036; v AV - offend 28, make to offend 2; 30 1) to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend 1a) to entice to sin 1b) to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey 1b1) to cause to fall away 1b2) to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority 1b3) to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another 1c) since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed 1c1) to cause one displeasure at a thing 1c2) to make indignant 1c3) to be displeased, indignant These things have I spoken. Particularly what is mentioned in the two last chapters. Be offended. “That ye should not be stumbled.” May not fall away from the faith, nor receive any injury to your souls, as that man does to his body who stumbles or falls over a stone or block in the way which he has not discovered. (from Adam Clarkes Commentary on John 16:1) and: Heb. 6:4-6 4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. Heb. 6:4-8 ASV Love in Christ New Creature |
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359 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89123 | ||
Your right Scripture does not exist in a vaccuum. Thats why I don't use John 15 only to support why I believe "once saved, always, saved" as many are teaching it these days is unBibical. we also have Scripture such as John 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended (John 16:1) KJV I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away. (RSV) I HAVE told you all these things, so that you should not be offended (taken unawares and falter, or be caused to stumble and fall away). (AMP) I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. (ESV) These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. (NKJV) These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not lose faith. (21st Century King James Version) I have told you these things so that you will not turn back. (Worldwide English New Testament) I have told you this so that you will not give up your faith (TEV) 4624 skandalizo (skan-dal-id'-zo) ("scandalize") from 4625; TDNT - 7:339,1036; v AV - offend 28, make to offend 2; 30 1) to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend 1a) to entice to sin 1b) to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey 1b1) to cause to fall away 1b2) to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority 1b3) to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another 1c) since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed 1c1) to cause one displeasure at a thing 1c2) to make indignant 1c3) to be displeased, indignant These things have I spoken. Particularly what is mentioned in the two last chapters. Be offended. “That ye should not be stumbled.” May not fall away from the faith, nor receive any injury to your souls, as that man does to his body who stumbles or falls over a stone or block in the way which he has not discovered. (from Adam Clarkes Commentary on John 16:1) and: Heb. 6:4-6 4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. Heb. 6:4-8 ASV Love in Christ New Creature |
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360 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89119 | ||
Doug I find it sad that you feel you need to bring in a rewards verse to attempt to alter the plain teaching of the verses in John 15 Lets look at John 15:1-6 John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman Jesus says He is the true vine, and He says His Father is the husbandman (or vine dresser) John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. In the above verse, you will find mentioned two types of branches. (1)It is mentioned of the first type of branch which is described in the above verse. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit. Take notice that it says "every branch IN me (in Jesus) that bears not fruit. These branches are IN Him (in Christ). If any man be in Christ he is a new creature (see 2 Cor. 5:17). But although this first type of branch is IN Him it is said of them they these are those which do not bear fruit. Remember however they are in Him. (2) The second type of branch mentioned in the same verse, are those which bear fruit, these branches are purged, meaning pruned, so that they may bring forth even more fruit. John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Above is the command to remain (abide) in Him. There is no hope of bearing fruit unless you REMAIN in Him. Why the command to REMAIN or abide, then if there is no danger? John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing In the above verse again we see that they are told they must abide (REMAIN) in Him, and then we will bear fruit. Fruit is the product of us, the branches, abiding or REMAINING connected to Jesus our vine Jesus says He is the vine, and we are the branches which are connected to the vine (Jesus). Jesus says he that remains in Him, and He in him, speaking of a unilateral relationship between the believer and Himself, brings forth much fruit. Without remaining connected to the vine (Jesus) we cannot bear fruit. John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. In the above verse we see that if a MAN remain not in Him, HE is cast forth (meaning cut off)and HE becomes withered, and men gather them (the branches that do not bear fruit) and cast them (us the branches into the fire and they are burned) You cannot continue to take John 15 out of context to the extent you have been doing to attempt to support the unBibical teaching of "once saved, always saved" The verses in John deal with people who are called branches, and it is people, who get cut off and burned in the fire in this verse, not works or bad fruit. The verses you use to try to explain away or alter the text of John 15 do not in any way work. There are plently of over verses in Scripture that you could better use to attempt to support the false teaching of "once saved, always,saved" other than 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Actually if you continue to read where you left off in 1 Cor. Chapter 3 you will find the following text. 1 Cor. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are So why did you stop at verse 15? Love in Christ New Creature |
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