Results 1 - 20 of 22
|
||||||
Results from: Notes Author: Movingon Ordered by Verse |
||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | WHATSOEVER YOU ASK THE FATHER | Bible general | Movingon | 240163 | ||
Two Scritpures have been mentioned. One was: “Are you still saved if you don't forgive?” And "…whatsoever you ask the father in my name you shall have so that the father... etc." The confusion on these passage from John 14:13-14 and other similar passages of Matt. 6:14-15 is because we are applying Scripture to the church that belongs to Israel in the earthly kingdom the Lord was offering. One of the benefits of dispensationalism is a proper separation of the covenants and dispensations which are missing here. Nowhere did the Lord ever in His earthly ministry directly mention the present assembly of Christ. Since they were offering a restoration of the Davidic kingdom (Kingdom from heaven) then we have a completely different set of promises, requirements and goals from the Old Covenant gospels. In Zech. 12:6-10 we read of Israel in the days of the kingdom and the miraculous power of some: “In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place Jerusalem. The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater that of Judah. In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn”. Another among many is the confusion of the Lord’s words when He said: “But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Does that apply to us in this dispensation of grace? Years ago my barber an Armenian and I always discussed the Scriptures while he cut my hair and the forgiveness of sin came up and I asked him, if you sinned and before you confessed it what would happen? His immediate answer was: I would be lost. Well, we have the same problem about forgiving some ones sins such as the passage under consideration here if it applies to the present assembly of Christ. Again, we are mixing two different covenants, two different dispensations and a heavenly citizenship with an earthly one. Surely we can see the error of applying the gospels as New Testament and the gospel of the kingdom under the old Mosaic laws and Paul’s gospel of grace. It has been said that the gospels are an integral part of the New Testament. But Paul said of the Law which the Lord taught: “…the letter kills,” a “…ministry of death” and a “…ministry of condemnation” (2 Cor. 3:6-7, 9). Furthermore, twice (Gal. 1:8-9) Paul said of anyone who taught the necessity of keeping the law for salvation: “let them be accursed.” The very exact thing the Lord told a young man who asked what he had to do to have eternal life. He said to the young man: “…if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” The Lord was only quoting what Moses wrote in Lev. 18:5. I told a man the Lord said the way to have eternal life was to keep the commandments. Then I told him Paul said if anyone taught that, “…let them be accursed. I Then asked him who are we to believe? And, is Paul contradicting the Lord? He had no answer. Then I explained to him that the Lord and Paul only taught what was required under the covenant in which they ministered, so there was no contradiction by either. Once on TV I was listening to what was supposed to be a minister of the gospel who said: “...the Lord and Paul did not always agree, so who are we to believe”? He then answered his own question: "...of course we believe the Lord.” With an audience of millions he had suggested that all the 14 epistles of Paul including the Hebrews letter could not be trusted. We have a similar problem with red letter bibles which suggests that the Lord’s words are more important than any other. Did Paul not say he was speaking the commandments of the Lord? (1 Cor. 14:37). Yet for some of my remarks it has been suggested elsewhere that I am a nitpicker and troublemaker. Well, I will leave that to the Lord. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
2 | Thithing loan | Bible general | Movingon | 241154 | ||
Hello beautybees! As Doc says: its hard to answer a incomplete question. However, I will try to be as enlightening as I can. To begin, we must understand one of the greatest problems in the church today which is, we have been misled by the translators in calling what is called The Gospels in the New Testament and therefore making church doctrine from them. The Lord was speaking to Israel about the Kingdom of David; and earthly kingdom and its restoration if they would repent and believe He was the Messiah the prophets spoke of. Israel at that time was yet under the Mosaic laws including the keeping of Ten Commandments and all other things Moses commanded. He said to His disciples one day: "The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do" (Matt. 23:2-3). Are we to do as the Pharisee say; keep the Sabbath, pay a tithe, and make animal sacrifices? Give a writing of divorce to our wife if she doesn’t please us. Without doubt, by questioning the paying of a tithe, some will respond by asking, are you saying we should not pay the pastor a salary? But it might be asked: where was it ever said by anyone that the pastor should be paid a tithe of our income? What is being said is, nowhere in the NT is it said that we are to give 10 percent of our income to anyone. The teaching of the apostle Paul who founded the present church and Dispensation of Grace never fixed any figure as to what believers are to give. He said we are to give freely as the Lord has blessed us, and according to our conscience. We are not under the Mosaic Law. Paul said to the Corinthians church: “So let each one give as he purposes in his own heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Cor. 9:7). If Paul believed we are to pay a tithe surely he would have mentioned it along with the above. Acts 15:28-29 give us the necessities for this dispensation where nothing is mentioned about a tithe, Sabbath keeping, or any such things. Is the church composed of 12 tribes? If as the Amillennialists claim, we are the new Israel, to be consistent then, the church should be divided into 12 tribes. The tithe for the 11 tribes was for the upkeep of the tribe of Levi, who had no allotment of land in Israel when it was divided. And to be even more consistent, where is the allotment of lands for the eleven tribes of the church? Are they in America, or Israel, or if we are the kingdom, the world? The irrational and ridiculous can easily be seen when we turn the Scriptures into such fantasies through the amillennial or dispensational teaching who both sanction the present division of the Old and New Covenants. If it were figuratively said that Abraham the father of the faithful including us referred to as the spiritual children of Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek, then we should do the same. Where did Abraham give any of his money? What Abraham gave was 10 percent of what he recovered that belonged to his nephew Lot, and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah. Things that had been taken by king Chedorlaomer and those kings with him (Gen. 14:16-20). It is clear that that incident cannot be used as grounds for believers paying a tithe today. At the time the Lord ministered before the cross, the present assembly of Christ was yet a mystery (Eph. 3:1-9). No doubt my remarks will raise many questions that need to be answered. But I cannot answer a question that someone hasn’t asked. So please ask for an explanation of any whatever you wish and I will try to answer it. It might help if one read Gal. 2:2, 7-9 where Paul explained his gospel to the 12 before him. The meeting is amplified in Acts ch. 15 where the 12 gave their opinion of what kind of behavior is expected of us today; the Gentile believers. It is plain that in the above meeting of the 12 with Paul the 12 were yet offering the kingdom to Israel which we cannot do today and nowhere did they including Peter ever establish a Gentile church, that is what Paul was called for. And by the way, the New Covenant (Testament) started with the book of Acts (Heb. 9:14-22). Neither did Peter start the present assembly of Christ on the Day of Pentecost or any other day. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
3 | Thithing loan | Bible general | Movingon | 241161 | ||
Hi Beja, after so long a time. I completely missed your response to an earlier post I made. Please forgive me. “You state that you do not believe the gospels apply to us, but do you believe the great commission of Matthew 28 was a commission to build the church or was it for the disciples to go out offering the kingdom? Perhaps said another way, when they went out making disciples and baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, was this building the church or the kingdom of that previous dispensation?” In Christ, Beja The so-called Great Commission was spoken to the disciples about and offering of the kingdom to Israel that they had been offering for the past three years. Again they were sent out beginning with the book of Acts to offer that same kingdom in the Great Commission. The present Dispensation of Grace and his gospel was given to Paul and began in Acts 13:2, 46-47 in AD 46-47 as stated by Paul in Eph. 3:1-9. I realize I have raised many questions in my posts and would be happy to send you with out charge two books by Email have written. I just offered a couple of books to kamschoolgrad that I wrote some years ago free of charge to anyone desiring them. When I again began posting in this study site I was accused of peddling my books. Well, if giving them away is peddling, then I am guilty. According to the instructions on what is allowable on this site I can offer them to anyone I choose without cost. I would be please to send them to anyone through email with Lockman’s gracious permission. There are more of your questions that space allows me to answer here, but there are two books I have written that more than covers all your question and much more. “Theological Heresies That Shaped World History.” Published by Robert C. Voiles, Copyright 2007. “Understanding the Biblical Rapture.” Published by Robert C. Voiles, Copyright 2007. Email for either or all to *** pilgrim1931@suddenlink.net. If so desired I can include a “Chronology of the Bible.” copyright 2007 by the same author. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
4 | what happens when we die | Bible general Archive 4 | Movingon | 240970 | ||
A note to Jasper72. You preface your post about “These are verses of what will happen on JUDGEMENT DAY.” May I kindly say you are misusing Scriptures by applying them to people and times that is incorrect. In the heading question you say: “where will those of us who are saved go?” and use Lk. 16:19 as applying to the present assembly of Christ. The passage has nothing to do with us who’s citizenship is already in heaven which is not a metaphor. Paul does not use such divisive teaching. He said of his teaching to the Corinthian church (2 Cor. 1:13): “...our dealings with you, have been absolutely aboveboard and sincere before God. They have not been marked by any worldly wisdom, but by the grace of God. Our letters to you have no double meaning-they mean just what you understand them to mean when you read them” (Phillips translation). “…we mean by our letters nothing else than what you read in them and understand us to mean” (Knox translation). In the passage from Lk. 16:19 the Lord was speaking to Israel about those saved and preserved in Hades before His payment for their sins. They removed and taken to heaven with the Lord when He ascended Zech. 9:11. Technically speaking, according to Zech. 9:11 and Heb. 9:15-17 there was no deliverance from Hades or admission into heaven until after the cross where propitiation for sins was made. Paul speaks of when the Lord took those in paradise to heaven with Him when He ascended to heaven after His resurrection: When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) And He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ (Eph. 4:8-12). Your use passages from what is called the Gospels that doen’t apply to us. That also includes your listings from Peter and the Revelation which were all written to Jews. They are about Israel and the Gentiles in and earthly kingdom from heaven. The Lord and disciples were offering the Kingdom from Heaven before and after the cross before the beginning of the present Dispensation of Grace given to Paul. We are a heavenly people who will return with the Lord and with Him judge the world and angles (1 Cor. 6:2-3). The only passages you used that apply to us were written by Paul after the Jews had rejected Christ a second time. We have already been judged and died with Christ and with Him born of the Spirit and raised from the dead never to die anymore Rom. 6:3-11, Heb. 9:28. “…Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4). “…who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee” (2 Cor. 1:22). “…and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:32). Your problem Jasper is the New covenant (Testament) does not begin until the book of Acts, and the present assembly of Christ and Dispensation of Grace began with Paul in Acts 13:2,46-47. The 12 apostles had nothing to do with the establishment of the present church or else Paul didn’t know what he was talking about (Eph. 3:1-9). Three times Paul said his gospel was a mystery (hidden) before revealed to him directly by the Lord. The Lord could not be speaking anywhere about the church or else Paul was mistaken when he said his gospel and the rapture was a mystery unrevealed before him. The Ephesians letter was written in AD 61, or 11 years after the Holy Spirit sent Paul to Jerusalem to explain his gospel to the apostles before him (Gal. 2:2,7-9). The Gentile churches begun by the Apostle Paul were unknown by the 12. The rapture was also a mystery because apart from the church, no other group is to be caught up into heaven. That is because ours is a heavenly home and citizenship, and explains why no one other than Paul mentions anything about the rapture. Paul said in Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:4-5; Col. 1:24-27 that his gospel was a mystery to all the other apostles until he explained it to them in Gal. chap. 2:2,7-9 as already mentioned. I hope Jasper that I have not offended you or anyone by my words. I know I have raised questions by many with some of my remarks. But please let me know if anything I have said needs qualifications. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
5 | what happens when we die | Bible general Archive 4 | Movingon | 241056 | ||
Hi Jasper! You have separated Hebrews 9:27 from v. 28 which say: “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him” (NIV). You have taken v. 27 out of context with v.28 which proves you wrong. You don’t seem to realize that our sins are paid for in full or else Christ’s death as payment was not for all of them. We are accounted to have died with Christ and raised with Him who is alive forevermore. Rom. 6:3-7 says: “…don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been set free from sin” (NIV trans). Christ did not say what you quoted from Hebrews. Paul wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews. Christ’s ministry was before the Law ended and the Holy Spirit was given to indwell us. You are mixing law and grace when you quote supposedly from Christ and apply them to Paul’s writing in this Dispensation of Grace. That’s a no-no. Until you separate the Covenant of the Ten Commandments which Christ taught from, from Paul’s writing it’s going to be confusion without end. Legally speaking, there is no forgiveness of sins unto salvation until Christ’s death and resurrection. Whether we are good or bad has nothing to do with being saved. The bottom line is, we must be born again of His Spirit into God’s family. The wages of sin is death and the only release from the penalty of sin is to be counted as having died with Christ as Paul shows in the quote from Rom 6 above. You say: “No person goes to heaven before judgement.” And that is correct, but what you seem to have missed is we were judged and have died with Christ for our sins. To be subjected to another judgment as those entering the kingdom at the Second Advent is the equivalent of double jeopardy; i.e., the subjecting of a person to a second trial and or punishment for the same offense for which the person has already been tried and punished having died with Christ in His death. Please do not be offended by my remarks Jasper, I am just trying to set some things straight from the Scriptures. In His Grace Movingon |
||||||
6 | what happens when we die | Bible general Archive 4 | Movingon | 241058 | ||
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word Sheol identifies the retaining place of the spirit and soul of the deceased as when the Lord spoke of the rich man and Lazerus (Lk. 16:19-31). In Zech. 9:11 the Lord said of Israel’s New Covenant and those saved and preserved in Sheol: “…because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” That pit was described by the Lord in Lk. 16:19-31. The waterless pit was Sheol in the lower regions of the earth where Abraham and all who trusted God before the cross were preserved until their sins were paid for (Lk. 16:19-31). If I may be permitted to remind Doc, God said He would set His people free of Sheol. Which raises the question, if they did not go to heaven, where die they go? Paul speaks of their very deliverance when after the Lord’s death He descended into Sheol (Hades in Greek) and when He ascended and took those who had been prisoners until payment for their sins was accomplished. When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) And He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ (Eph. 4:8-12). According to Paul the Lord Jesus Christ is going to bring from heaven those whose soul and spirit were taken out of Hades. He then took them up to heaven with the Him at His Ascension. At the rapture He comes to resurrect their physical bodies to be joined with their soul and spirit from heaven. Then together those yet living at that time will also be changed and taken to heaven with those who will be changed to have a glorious body the same as the Lord Himself yet living at that time. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Following are other passages showing soul’s in heaven. Ephesians 3:14-15 states, "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." “So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:6-8). “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held…”(Rev. (6:9). “Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed” (Rev. 6:11). "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Rev. 7:13-14). In His grace Movingon |
||||||
7 | How many churches will be saved? | Matthew | Movingon | 241049 | ||
Hi Beja, you say: However you may read this verse, at the end of the day "ekklesia" is in fact the word Scritpure uses for "church." For example, 1 Corinthians 1:2 addresses the letter "to the 'ekklesia' of God which is at Corinth." Yes, the word does mean "assembly" but "ekklesia" remains the word constantly used for the church. On that note I wonder about your interpretation of Hebrews 12:22-23 where he tells them they have already (perfect tense) come to the "ekklesia" of the firstborn? In Christ, Beja I read the verse with the meaning of “ekklesia.” I am aware of the word church and it’s supposed meaning which is “the called our ones.” And we can understand that indeed we are the called out ones. However, my point was to point out the truth that the called out ones of this dispensation of grace was not the ones the Lord was speaking of. If it was then Paul made an awful mistake when he said his gospel and this whole dispensation of grace was a mystery until given to him. And we are not the kingdom of heaven assembly the keys were to open. In Acts 19 three times ekklesia is used to describe a mob of rioting Ephesian Gentiles who were afraid the preaching of Christ by Paul was going to destroy the lucrative silversmith business of making images for the worship of the goddess Diana. In opposition to Paul, Demetrius, a silversmith, called together an “ekklesia,” correctly translated (assembly) when not applying to the church. To show the nonsense of their translation, most if asked what the word church means, explain that it has a meaning of “the called out ones” If the word church, simply means the “called out ones,” then the word ekklesia, translated “church” is just as appropriate when applied to the Ephesian idol worshiping mob who would have killed Paul, as when it is used to identify the present assembly of Christ. Would we say the idol worshipers were the “called out ones?” It is a clear example of the absurdity that we have been taught by those referred to as scholars who know better. Never once did the Lord name the present assembly of Christ in His earthly assembly By using what is called the Gospels as spoken to and about the present church we have all kinds of confusion. The Lord taught the law that Paul said was a ministry of condemnation and death (2 Cor. 3: 6-9) and we call it the good news. Read Matt. 19:16-17 and compare it with what Paul said about teaching the commandments as the way of life in Gal. 1:6-9 just like the Lord said to the young ruler. There could be no New Covenant until the book of Acts (Heb. 9:15-22). You say: “Yes, the word does mean "assembly" but "ekklesia" remains the word constantly used for the church.” And that is our problem. Are we to do as the Pharisees say since they sit in Moses seat? The Lord said: “The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do (Matt. 23:2-3).” And that is because we do not understand where the Old and New Testaments begin and end. We apply things to the church that was spoken to Israel who was under the law when the Lord spoke. One of our problems of understand so many things is, we are letting the church teach us rather than the Scriptures. I hope this helps Beja. Thanks for your response. Movingon |
||||||
8 | How many churches will be saved? | Matthew | Movingon | 241071 | ||
Good morning Jasper. You said: "It sounds like you don't even know who christ is!" If you would, please identify the person you were addressing above. Movingon |
||||||
9 | How many churches will be saved? | Matthew | Movingon | 241072 | ||
Hi Beja! You say: “However you may read this verse, at the end of the day "ekklesia" is in fact the word scritpure uses for "church." ” May I say, the Scriptures do not anywhere mention the word Church. The word “Church” was incorrectly added by the translators because they believed the Lord was speaking of the present assembly of Christ. He was speaking of giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven which He named in the very next verse (19). The present assembly of Christ is not the Kingdom of Heaven or any other kingdom or nation but a part of the universal Kingdom of God. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
10 | How many churches will be saved? | Matthew | Movingon | 241084 | ||
Jasper asks: How many churches will be saved? The question is self defeating. I am told by just about everybody the word church means: “the called out ones.” That would mean God has called out certain people to be saved. So it is apart from reason to ask how many will be saved if they are the called out ones. Perhaps you are asking about the different Christian denominations; if they are saved by what they believe and teach. It would be helpful for you to explain just what you mean. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
11 | ... | Matt 5:29 | Movingon | 241201 | ||
... | ||||||
12 | His "Church"? | Matt 16:18 | Movingon | 240128 | ||
In Matthew Chap.10:5-23 is an unbroken narrative of the Lord sending out the twelve to preach the gospel of the kingdom that ends at His Second Advent where there is nowhere a break for the present dispensation. In Chap. 22:2-10 is a parable of three offerings of the kingdom and still no mention of the present assembly of Christ that is between the second and third offer. The third offer of vv. 8-10 is the same as the Lords words in Matt. 24:14 after the rapture when the gospel of the kingdom for the third and last time will be preached to “…all the world”. In Acts 1-3 is found the second offer of the kingdom as in Matt. 22:4-7 where Peter preached the same Gospel of the Kingdom after the cross that they and Lord preached before the cross. We know vv. 4-7 was after the cross because that is the first persecution of his servants and the result in v. 7 where the Lord sent His armies under Titus and burned up Jerusalem. In Acts 1:3-6 when after teaching the disciples for 40 days about things concerning the kingdom they asked the Lord if He would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. In verse 7 He did not correct them, but simply told them, it was not for them to know when. If they were confused, that was the appropriate time to correct them, but we find no such thing. When it is said that the present church did not begin on the Day of Pentecost with Peter’s preaching, immediately we are told that the Lord said He would build his church and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. The confusion has been caused by the erroneous translation of the Lord’s words in Matt. 16:18 when He said that He would build His “Church.” If the word church, simply means the “the called out ones,” as we are told, then the word ekklesia translated “church” is just as appropriate when applied to the Ephesian idol worshiping mob who would have killed Paul (Acts 19:32, 39, 41), as when it is used to identify the present assembly of Christ. Would we say the idol worshipers were the “called out ones? Because the translators want to believe the present assembly of Christ was what the Lord spoke of, they have deliberately misled the present assembly of Christ for two thousand years by translating the Greek “ekklesia,” to “church,” when the common word ‘ekklesia’ simply means is an assembly, of any kind or thing. If the word in Matt. 16:18 means church as used today, then we have a contradiction when the Lord said He would build His assembly and then immediately give Peter the keys to what identified in the next verse 19 as the kingdom of heaven. They are most certainly not the same as Doc points out. The term “kingdom of heaven” is used for a total of 33 times in Matthew alone, so there is no doubt as to what the keys were to open in spite of what scholars and church leaders tell us. Neither is the church a kingdom par-se of any kind. It is a clear example past and present of those who know better yet deliberately mislead the Lord’s people. They are not to be excused of the absurdity and harm that they have wrought in the body of Christ. They are determined to prove that the Lord was speaking of the present assembly of Christ in Matthew 16. When we say church assembly, we are actually saying the redundant, assembly assembly, or, assembly congregation. Yet we still continue to perpetuate the same nonsense because we have been misled by the philosophers and translators into the belief that the present church was what the Lord spoke of in Matt. 16:18. Of the original Greek word “ekklesia,” the very qualified Merrill F. Unger says: "The word ekklesia, however, is employed of any assembly, and the word in the Greek language implies no more". Merrill F. Unger, Unger’s Bible Dictionary, Moody Press. 1960, p. 204. A. T. Robertson certainly did not agree with me on many things, nevertheless as a recognized authority on NT Greek, his words are weighty, and even he has to agree on the meaning of the word “ekklesia” as found in Matt. 16:18, and 18:17 and it’s origin. He says: “What is the sense here in which Jesus uses it? The word originally meant “assembly” (Acts 19:39, but it came to be applied to an “unassembled” assembly….”And the name for the new Israel, ekklesia, in His mouth is not an anachronism. It is an old familiar name for the congregation of Israel found in Deut. (18:26; (sic) 23:2) and (Psalms 22:36) (sic), both books well known to Jesus….” It is interesting to observe that in Psalm 89 most of the important words employed by Jesus on this occasion occur in the LXX text”. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Baker Book House, 1930, Vol. 1, p. 132. Robertson clearly identifies the original Greek having a meaning of assembly. And that is what is being said here and so identified by the Lord Himself when He gave Peter the keys to the “kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19) and in other places as the kingdom of David. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
13 | Three times Paul says his gospel was a m | Rom 16:25 | Movingon | 240008 | ||
Why do we ignore Paul's statement that his gospel was a mystery to all before him? | ||||||
14 | Three times Paul says his gospel was a m | Rom 16:25 | Movingon | 240023 | ||
Hi Jalek! God to hear from you. You say: "In Ephesians 1:3-14 and 3:1-21, Paul talks about the mystery. In Ephesians 1:9, he calls it "the mystery of His (God the Father's) will". Later in Ephesians 3:4, he calls it the "Mystery of Christ". He's talking about redemption. Although redemption is certainly taught by Paul. Man’s redemption was known from the beginning so that was no mystery." Paul says the mystery of his gospel in this dispensation was: “that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6). And, that the Gentiles would be accepted in the same body of believers as co-equals of the Jews You say: “It was two people who changed the early church's mind on that. The first was Peter, who had a vision in Acts 10. In Acts 11, he uses the vision as a defense to uphold the position of teaching gentiles the Gospel.” Peter’s mission to Cornelius and use of the keys was to open the gates to the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:19) which he used in his first message in Acts 2-3 when he first preached Christ to the Jews. Other than Cornelius Peter never preached to the Gentiles or established a Gentile church. When Peter came to the house of Cornelius, one of the first things he said was, as a Jew he was not supposed to be in the company of a Gentile (Acts 10:28). Cornelius even had to explain to him why he was there (Acts 10: 29). After Cornelius explained his vision, Peter said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.” That sounds strange for someone who had supposedly just established a church to be made up of people without distinction from all nations on the Day of Pentecost. The apostle Paul speaking of the church said: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28). If Peter started the present church on the Day of Pentecost and was the founder of any Gentile church as is universally taught, then how can the confrontation between Paul and Peter be explained? Paul said of Peter when he came to visit one of Paul’s churches: …when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to face to face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “if you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews” (Gal. 2:11-14). Here it is seen that Peter was even afraid to be caught eating with Gentile Christians. Does that sound like someone who was the founder and head of the Gentile churches? The Protestant churches have made the same mistake about the primacy of Peter in his founding of the present church. However, they did not make the abominable mistake of Peter having a successor with unlimited power to determine who would be admitted into heaven, or rejected. And how can it be explained why Peter as late as A.D. 38 was so afraid and astonished at the happenings when he was sent to Cornelius in Acts 10 if he started the present Jew and Gentile church on the Day of Pentecost? The apostle Paul speaking of the present church said: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28). Nowhere did Peter ever establish a Gentile church and only wrote 2 epistles, and those were to Jews. Thanks Jalek for your note. In His grace movingon |
||||||
15 | Is Metaphorical teaching legitimate | 2 Cor 1:13 | Movingon | 240964 | ||
There are upwards of 300 different Christian denominations in America supposedly coming from the same textbook; the Bible? The parent from which all heresy sprang began and is still very much with us today in the pseudo interpretation of Scripture. In ordinary Christian conversation about understanding Scripture one often hears the term “spiritual interpretation,” without realizing it is not happenstance or a natural progression, but has roots in things that most are not acquainted with. The terms “allegorical,” “parabolical,” “metaphorical,” or the more common expression in layman terms, “spiritual,” have their roots in ancient history. They are by their very geneses a stumbling block to, and in direct opposition to understanding Divine revelation. The Oxford Classical Dictionary states: “Allegorical reading of works of literature-above all the mythological poems of Homer and Hesiod, decoded as accounts of the physical world or the truths of morality-seems to begin as early as the 6th cent, BC and to be an established (if controversial) practice by the end of the 5th.” It is almost inconceivable that rational people would or could approach the Scriptures with such foolishness in mind, yet that is precisely what those who use that method do. It should be axiomatic, if a normal literal statement doesn’t mean what is said, then, it has no meaning. If God indeed meant other than what is written, the entirely reasonable question could be asked concerning the misuse of Scripture, “How could God find fault with anyone, if He himself doesn’t mean what He says? From the heathen mystery religions came the belief that not only did almost every passage have a secret, mysterious and higher meaning, but that God had at times actually falsified even historical events and dates as Philo, an Alexandrian Jew (20 BC AD 50) a contemporary of Christ claimed. This was commonly taught by Philo, Barnabas, and later by Clement of Alexandria, who passed it on to his star pupil, Origen (185 254), who in AD 203 at the age of eighteen became head of the catechetical school of theology at Alexandria Egypt, which at that time was the world’s foremost Christian school. From the beginning that belief was established by the church leadership as the correct and legitimate method of teaching that would determine the course of church history and to a great extent world history for the next thirteen centuries until the Reformation. It paved the road to the dark ages for a thousand years and even until the present the same disastrous method is used more or less by most of Christendom. The disastrous result of the method is witnessed to by the heresy, confusion, and disastrous results everywhere it is used. That method is in fact what almost everyone believed in the primitive church and is the parent of the present theological confusion in the body of Christ. Examples of the claim that God at times falsified Scripture were common in the early church writings. It is often and especially seen in the writings of Origen (AD 185 254), one of the most prolific writers of the post apostolic times. Speaking of the writers of the Scriptures he said: “Scripture contains many contradictions, and many statements which are not literally true, but must be read spiritually and mystically. “…They proposed to speak the truth where it was their intention to prefer the spiritual to the material. The spiritual truth was often preserved, as one might say, in the material falsehood.” (Origen, Commentary on John, Anti Nicene Fathers, Hendrickson Pub., 1994. Vol. 9, p. 383.) If a statement using normal words is not accepted as meaning what the writer said, then the only thing left are the inventions of those who deny what God has said. They have cast aside the only standard by which all conclusions must be decided which is the Holy Scriptures. If they ever read it they would do well to remember Paul’s statement to the Corinthians about his teaching (2 Cor. 1:13). The allegorical or metaphorical method of teaching according to Paul was contrary to sound biblical exegesis and according to the world’s wisdom. Why not let Paul instruct those who use the metaphorical method. “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ” (Col. 2:8). In 2 Cor.1:13 Paul said: “...our dealings with you, have been absolutely aboveboard and sincere before God. They have not been marked by any worldly wisdom, but by the grace of God. Our letters to you have no double meaning-they mean just what you understand them to mean when you read them” (Phillips translation). “…we mean by our letters nothing else than what you read in them and understand us to mean” (Knox translation). “You don’t have to read between the lines of my letters; you can understand them.” (Moffatt Translation). In His Grace Movingon |
||||||
16 | where will those of us who are saved go | 2 Cor 5:8 | Movingon | 240977 | ||
Doc says: “Darby and Scofield both taught a kind of dispensationalism, although from what I can understand, there are several varieties, including that which has been popularized by prophecy mongering in the last 30 years or so. I believe that Ellen White taught a variation of dispensationalism too. I would not be able to distinguish classic dispensationalism from other varieties”. As I understand Doc. He classes Darby, Scofield and likeminded people with the likes of Ellen G. White. If the doctor cannot tell the difference between Darby and Schofield and Ellen G. White it is understandable why he asks “…about how they differ and who teaches which version.” It is common knowledge that an attempt at discrediting someone of the dispensational position usually slaps them up against Ellen G. White who was not a dispensationalist in the common understanding of who in the present day is. I hope I have misunderstood Doc, but when he uses the term “mongering” which the dictionary identifies it as “…a person who attempts to stir up or spread something that is usually petty or discreditable,” and names the following as such. The dispensationalist field includes such men as C. I. Scofield and his Reference Bible and the great works, past and present from the Dallas Theological Seminary. Moody Bible Institute’s William R. Newell and Alva J. McClain of Grace Theological Seminary and his monumental work, The Greatness of the Kingdom, one of the truly great efforts in setting forth the kingdom of God with definition and clarity. Hundreds of the worlds best bible teachers could be named who are of the dispensational persuasion put much importance to the study of prophecy. It is common knowledge that those church leaders are the ones who have carried the fight to preserve evangelical Christianity. Everyone of them were and are important leaders of Eschatological teaching and to them we owe much. It is they in particular to whom we owe thanks for the preservation of what we call fundamental Christianity. Approximately one fourth of the Scriptures are prophecy and to ignore or dismiss them as important is to do a terrible disservice to the Lord’s people. To belittle the serious study of prophecy is to agree with those of the early church who with their parabolical teaching paved the road to a thousand years of the dark ages ending with the burning of untold thousands for nothing more than trying to understand the Scriptures for themselves. |
||||||
17 | If "heaven" is a metaphor | Phil 3:20 | Movingon | 240191 | ||
Doc says: “Citizenship of heaven is a metaphor -- not heaven itself.” As to Paul's remark that citizenship in heaven being a metaphor used by most Christians is the same as most Amillennial twisting of plain literal words to suit their own inventions. It's an outright denial of what Paul said. It is also the teaching of Christadelphianism, Seventh Day Adventists’ who accepts most of Ellen G. White’s teaching and the so called Jehovah’s witnesses, etc.. To deny our citizenship in heaven and it’s literalness is to rob the Lord's people of a great blessing. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word Sheol identifies the retaining place of the spirit and soul of the deceased as when the Lord spoke of the rich man and Lazerus (Lk. 16:19-31). According to Doc they are still there. But in Zech. 9:11 the Lord said of Israel’s New Covenant and those saved and preserved in Sheol: “…because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” That pit was described by the Lord in Lk. 16:19-31. The waterless pit was Sheol in the lower regions of the earth where Abraham and all who trusted God before the cross were preserved until their sins were paid for (Lk. 16:19-31). If I may be permitted to remind Doc, God said He would set His people free of Sheol. Paul speaks of their very deliverance when after the Lord’s death He descended into Sheol (Hades in Greek) and when He ascended and took those who had been prisoners until payment for their sins was accomplished. "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) And He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:8-12). According to Paul the Lord Jesus Christ is going to bring from heaven those whose soul and spirit were taken out of Hades. He then took them up to heaven with the Him at His Ascension. At the rapture He comes to resurrect their physical bodies to be joined with their soul and spirit from heaven. Then together those yet living at that time will also be changed and taken to heaven with those who will be changed to have a glorious body the same as the Lord Himself yet living at that time. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Following are other passages showing soul’s in heaven. Ephesians 3:14-15 states, "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." “So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:6-8). “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held…”(Rev. (6:9). “Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed” (Rev. 6:11). "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Rev. 7:13-14). In His grace Movingon |
||||||
18 | If "heaven" is a metaphor | Phil 3:20 | Movingon | 240193 | ||
Hi Beja Thanks for reminding me of my language. If I might ask a favor of you please read a response to my post on New Covenant beginning from DocTrinsograce. In His grace Movingon Following is Doc's note. Note: "Hi, movingon... We are not a forum created for debate, or the promulgation of unusual or aberrant teachings. Our gracious host, the Lockman Foundation, has us agree specifically to these things in the Terms of Use (TOU). I understand that you want to pedal your books -- although that is also eschewed in the TOU. Ours is necessarily an ecumenical association of Christendom. It is novel to hear from the fringe from time to time, but you might be received in a better light in some of the other forums in which you have participated. There, perhaps, the focus is more on novelty that on Scripture alone. In Him, Doc" |
||||||
19 | New Covenant beginning | Heb 8:13 | Movingon | 240013 | ||
Thanks Doc for your prompt answer. The point I was trying to make was the four books called the gospels are not in the New Testament (Covenant). There could be no New Covenant until the sins committed under the old were paid for. The New Covenant could not begin until the Book of Acts after the cross. Also, speaking of Christ’s death Paul says it’s like a last will and testament: "He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives" (Heb. 9:15-17). Paul told the Galatians church: "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). …when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons" (Gal. 4:4-5). Here we see that all those before were under the law by the passages from the Galatians letter and that would include all four books called the gospels. To add finality to what Paul said: "…when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission" (Heb. 9:15-22. In view of all the confusion it has caused, it’s a mystery to me how we could go for two millennia without correction being made. There is no end to the confusion in the Body of Christ because of the present incorrect division. In His grace movingon |
||||||
20 | New Covenant beginning | Heb 8:13 | Movingon | 240178 | ||
Doc says: “Despite the Campbellism advertising, there is a big problem here; i.e., making the Sermon on the Mount -- and, apparently, all the other places Christ mandates forgiveness -- as only applying to the Jews.” I do see there is a big problem here. You don’t seem to have a problem with Christ’s teaching the way to eternal life is through keeping the commandments by talking about the gospels being an integral part of the New Covenant. Of course the Lord said many things that applies to any and all but again, you have completely missed the distinction between an earthly kingdom under the law of commandments and all the statutes and judgments that the Lord was offering, and the present church whose citizenship is already in heaven. Either you misunderstood or just rejected what I said. In Matt. 5:3-10 if we are to believe those things applies to everyone then we do have trouble. If you believe us not forgiving others sins will result in God not forgiving ours, does that mean we will be lost? All I am trying to do is to cut things clean and make sharp distinctions of what the Old and New Covenants teach. And eliminate confusion caused when you cannot tell the difference between the Old Covenant Mosaic laws and the present dispensation of grace. Do you not understand what Paul said of the Old Covenant? I will quote it for you in case you missed it. “…THE LETTER KILLS, but the Spirit gives life. But if THE MINISTRY OF DEATH, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the MINISTRY OF THE SPIRIT not be more glorious? For if the MINISTRY OF CONDEMNATION had glory, the MINISTRY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS exceeds much more in glory” (2 Cor. 6-9). Look what Paul said concerning the Old Mosaic Covenant of commandments which the gospels are part of that you are defending. “…having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” Col. 2:14). “…if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain” (Gal. 2:21). “…Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4). I am writing this because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. so the unlearned can understand what the Scriptures plainly say without all the theological jargon of theologians who brought all the problems to the church of Christ for the last two millennia. And yes, paved the road to a thousand years of the dark ages for the whole world. You are poisoning the waters of truth by your insistence that we are to use the Lord’s teaching of things under the Mosaic laws that is contrary Paul’s teaching of grace. Again, my point was, the Lord was speaking to the Jews about life in an earthly kingdom and under the Mosaic laws which we are not. If anyone does not make that distinction then confusion cannot and will not be avoided and it seems that distinction has completely escaped you. Did you ever notice when the Lord spoke of one entering the kingdom it was always based on their works rather than their faith. I know you have read the parables of the wheat and tares, sheep and goats and Rev. 2-3 where we see the same thing where over and over; “…he who overcomes.” Whereas, we have already overcome and stand in Christ and without spot or blemish. I know you understand Doc that salvation is through our faith, yet you mix law and grace constantly in the use of what is erroneously called the gospels without distinction between the fact that there was a gospel for the Jews, and, a gospel for the Gentiles which is the present assembly of Christ (Gal. 2:2, 7-9). Of our security in Christ Paul said: “…also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee” (2 Cor. 1:22). “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,…” (Eph. 1:13). “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). “Israel was under the Law where it is said: “…the soul who sins shall die…” (Eze. 18:4, 20). Paul said: “…wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ” (Rom. 6:23). Doc I love you in Christ when I take issue with you when all I am trying to do is eliminate confusion in the Body of Christ that your type of Theological philosophy on the Old Covenant creates. In His grace Movingon |
||||||
Result pages: [ 1 2 ] Next > Last [2] >> |