Results 1421 - 1440 of 1459
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Results from: Notes Author: John Reformed Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1421 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88024 | ||
Greetings Tim, "Okay, final post on my end for two reasons. One, I have to start moving! :-) Two, we are spinning our wheels here! :-)" ------------------------------------------------ Actually, I think my wheels are gaining traction! ------------------------------------------------- "First of all, I never once denied that 'all' in Rom. 8:28 means 'all'. But, neither does Rom. 8:28 that God ordains all things. It says, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,....". There is a big difference in saying that God can take even my sin and work some good out of it and saying that God ordained my sin." ------------------------------------------------- I did not mean, by citing Romans 8:28, to imply that it proved pre-destination. What I had attepted to show that "all things", including our sins, "God works together for good". This verse also serves as an arguement against the possibility of losing our salvation. ------------------------------------------------- "Secondly, I wasn't ignoring Acts 4:26-28. It simply wasn't relevant to the question I had asked you my friend. We both agree that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. We both agree that God can do whatever He wants!" ------------------------------------------------- The difference we have is that you say, "God CAN do whatever He wants", but, I say "God HAS done what He wanted to do." Acts 4:26-28 is one of the strongest and clearest proofs of God's soveriegn pre-ordination of eveything that has and will occur. At the same time it preserves man's freedom (those who crucified Christ meant it for evil but God meant it for good). ------------------------------------------------- "What we disagree on is whether man has any ability to choose to obey or disobey. I asked you about Christians who sin. Do they sin because God willed it or because they willed it? My understanding is that when I commit an act of sin I am disobeying God's will, not acting upon it." ------------------------------------------------- This would lead us into another area of theology. Jonathan Edwards wrote 250 years ago, "The Arminians ridicule the distinction between the secret and revealed will of God, or, more properly expressed, the distinction between the decree and the law of God; because we say he may decree one thing, and command another. And so, they argue, we hold a contrariety in God, as if one will of his contradicted another." Perhaps, after you have settled in, we might re-visit this fascinating and impotant topic. Your Brother in Christ, John Reformed |
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1422 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88049 | ||
Hi Tim, Concerning your first point: I may have confused you a bit by, seemingly, contradicting myself. But it was not deliberate or even an actual contradiction; it was a failure on my part to fully explain myself in the previous post. For that, I apologize. I had said "That God causes all things to work together for good. All means all, does it not? Sin is a thing that occurs in our lives, does it not? Then God has predestined that sin...not for evil...but for good." This is what I was attemting to show. I had used Acts 4 to make my case for God's pre-ordination of "all things". I used Romans 8:28 to make the case that "all things" must include the sins of the saints. As to your following comment, "I say that He HAS died for all and HAS shown mercy to all". John 6 and Romans 9 do not support universal atonement. Furthermore, the scriptures we have been discussing make a strong case for God's absolute soverignty in in all things, including keeping His elect from failling to perservere til the end. Moving on...you said "Secondly, even if your understanding of this verse is correct (in the sense that man's will played no part whatsoever), it still doesn't prove (as you state in your last post) that "EVERYTHING that has or will occur" has preordained. It would only proof the the murder of Christ was preordained, since that is the only act specifically mentioned in this verse. The word 'all' isn't used here! ;-) and "You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." But when have I ever said that man's will played no part whatsoever (in Acts 4 or rom 8 or anywhere else)?... What I said was the natural man does not have the ability to choose spiritual good. He also has no desire to please God. Pilate, Herod, the Jews and Gentiles who gathered together against Christ (acts 4) of their own free will (free in the sense that it was not forced or coerced by any power outside their own selves) murdered the Lord of Glory. And they did it because it was the strongest desire of their own wicked hearts. The idea that fallen man retains some spark of spiritual good within himself is every where contrdicted by Sripture itself! God, on the other hand, had pre-ordained each and every action that occured; right down to the minutest of details. BUT He meant it for the salvation of an innumerable multitude (i.e., His elect). Your third point, regarding God's soveiegnty and man's responsibility, is quite interesting. It seems as if the arminians have convinced themselves that they have figured it out! Congratulations! :-) You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." Your statement that Calvin denied free-will is also wrong. As calvinists, we believe that the Bible teaches that man is free to follow the desires of his heart. Of course (and as you well know) the Bible takes a dim view of the heart of unregenerate man. That is why it takes a miracle of grace before anyone has the ability to choose spiritual good (salvation). They first must recieve spiritual life (born again or born from above) "Not by the will of man but of God. John 1:13 You brought up the subject of Adam and Eve. You said: "If every act is a result of God's ordained plan, then God must be the author of sin. Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature, so one cannot simply claim that they 'willing' sin in accordance with their sin nature. God must have MADE them sin"...."This is why Arminians ridicule, as Jonathan Edwards claimed, this view of God's will. One cannot believe that God 'ordains' every action and choice, and not have Him responsible for sin. He created us. He ordained our choices. But, He is not responsible for our choice?" Where you stray from biblical reality into the murky realm of human wisdom, is in your pre-supposition that God created man for some reason other than His own glory. Those whom He has passed by (the reprobate) were created to glorify God's justice and those who He chose (the elect) were created to glorify His mercy. Romans 9. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:21-23 God Bless, John |
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1423 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88070 | ||
Hi Tim, "This is not a valid complaint. You have already established that we are allowed to use our human to determine when a verse is credible or not! ;-)" I assume the missing word in your Q. is human "reason". I do believe that "reason" was given to us for the express purpose of understanding God's Word. What I meant by "human wisdom" (a poor choice of terms on my part) is the "wisdom of this world". I define it as a false reasoning which attempts to undermine the clear teaching of Scripture by forcing it to agree with the mores of the contemporary culture. "did Adam and Eve simply follow their fallen nature when they sinned?" The WCF claims "Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory You know my position is that Adam and Eve were not cursed until after they sinned. They were not created with fallen natures. Their wills were absolutely free to choose either good or evil. They were free to choose spirtual good or ill, they chose ill. At the same time, God had known from all eternity that that would be their choice. He created them knowing what would occur. Now, I do not believe that God merely looks down the corridors of time to see what will occur in the future. This is a low view of God's omniscience and is more suitable to deism than christianity. I do believe that God is the creator in the highest sense of the word and that would mean that everything that occurs could not have occured apart from His work and purpose in creating the world. "The arguement that someone 'willing' follows a preordained choice makes no sense at all. It is a direct contradiction." Is 46:10,11 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. Just because our litle peanut brains can't comprehend the mind of God does not justify our bringing "what is written" down to a level that agrees with our own man-glorifying notions of right and wrong. God Bless, John |
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1424 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88084 | ||
"But, you have previously said that God ordained every choice and action. So, we are back to the same question. Did Adam and Eve sin because they willed it or because God willed it?" -------------------------------------- Yes. In the sense that God, had He willed to do so, could have foregone their creation in the first place. Being that He did create them with the capacity to sin, is it not obvious that it also suited His eternal purpose. ------------------------------------------------- "If the original sin of Adam and Eve was a direct result of God's ordained plan, then God is the author of sin. There is no way around this conclusion."...."If God is the author of Adam and Eve's sin, then He is also the direct cause of all the sins of those who followed Adam and Eve, who (according to your definition of freedom) followed the dictates of their fallen nature and sinned as well." ----------------------------------------------- OOPS! Carefull here Tim. Pride goeth before a fall! :-) Is sin a created thing? I don't think that it is. Sin is "missing the mark". Man's failure to live up to God's command "to be perfect, even as He is perfect". Adam and Eve missed the mark when they disobeyed God's command. God uses sin in the lives of His creatures, both the just and the unjust, for His own Holy purpose. This neither excuses the sinner nor makes God the Author of sin. (see Acts 4: 26-28) Of course God could have eliminated the possibility of any of His creatures sinning by simply not issuing any commands whatsoever. But the fact is that He did introduce the law (no law, no sin) knowing that they would fall. Why He acted as He has is beyond our ken. And it has pleased Him to not reveal the answer to us. We probably could'nt understand it anyway! :-) The deeper we dig into the truths of God the deeper they go. Is 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. John |
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1425 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88091 | ||
Dear Tim, "Aw! The famous 'it is a mystery' argument! :-)" I have no intention of copping out on what I have stated! I only meant to show, beyond that which the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us in His Word, it is unknowable. Don't you agree? "So, did God create Adam and Eve with the capacity to sin or did He ordain their very choice?" God created Adam and eve with the freedom to choose between obediance to His command or to disobey His command. He knew they would disobey and He created them in spite of His knowing. Therefore, His will was that their fall would occur. There is no way, that I know of, that God can fail to accomplish anything which He has decided to do. I have already demonstrated (sin is not a created "thing")that the fact that they sinned was ordained by God (Is 46:10) but God cannot be held as it's author. Jer 18:6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. It seems to me, given the brevity of your response, that the pressures of moving have prevented you from giving serious consideration to my post. Pehaps it would be best to wait until you are settled before we resume our conversation on this "thorny" and difficlt topic. I would appreciate a little time myself to study and meditate on the topic. May God Bless your new move. John |
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1426 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88114 | ||
Dear Hank, " So your argument is that it was God's will that the fall of Adam and Eve would occur?" How else then could it have occured if God had not permitted it to occur. He is Lord over all creation. Nothing can take place that is not in accord with God's eternal purpose. Our problem is that we don't see the "Big Picture". We don't understand the glory of God's eternal plan. We look at tiny slices of life and think we know it all. Take the case of Joseph and his brothers for instance. Had we been there we would have questioned why God would allow the brothers to be so sinful as to plot the death of young Joseph. But all along God had planned tremendous good to come out of evil. Here comes the tricky part...Gen 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. "but God meant it.." Acts 4 basically teaches this same principle. God had ordained the actions that surrounded the murder of Christ. Does that make God the author of sin. Of course not. Just as Joseph's brothers meant evil, Pilate, Herod and the rest meant evil as well. BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD! The same is true going all the way back to Adam and Eve. "God often brings good out of evil, and promotes the designs of his providence even by the sins of men; not that he is the author of sin, far be it from us to think so; but his infinite wisdom so overrules events, and directs the chain of them, that, in the issue, that ends in his praise which in its own nature had a direct tendency to his dishonour; as the putting of Christ to death, Acts 2:23." (Matthew Henry Commentary) I guess that it boils down to the question: Does God know the future because He knows how everything will turn out (which means He is passive in His rule) or Does He know the end from the begining because He ordained all things that occur (which means He is active in His rule.) I see everything that happens as being part of God's eternal plan. The cross was planned along with everythingelse before the foundation of the world. Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, John |
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1427 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88124 | ||
Hank If Adam and Eve had the freedom to choose (as you have stated), was it Adam and Eve's will, or God's will, that resulted in their decision (choice) to disobey God's command? My Final Answer is..........(dramatic pause)Both! They meant it for evil but God meant it for good. As I understand the Bible, God had an eternal purpose in creating the world and all things in it. Now, I am confident that a sound SB like yourself would never buy into the diest view that sees God as a watchmaker who created the world, wound it up and just let it keep on ticking. The Bible refutes such nonsense. Is 46:1 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; "all My good pleasure". That means to me that God does not merely know the beginning from the end, but has "declared" them, so as to inform us all that He rules over everthing and everybody. "My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; That sounds as definite as it gets. Everything that He has planned will happen. Do any of us think that we will live a nanosecond longer than God has planned for our lives? Or that a drop of rain will fall in any other place than where God planned for it to fall? Of course not! We serve a Mighty God. There is no end to the depth of His greatness. Re-read Acts 4 and tell me what it means. Just don't tell me it relates to the crucifixtion but not to the rest of God's works. Eph 1:11,12 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory." God Bless, John |
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1428 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88125 | ||
Dear Tim "But, seriously, did Adam and Eve simply follow their fallen nature when they sinned? They did not yet have a fallen nature. So, where did the 'desire' to sin come from?" We know that the desire to sin absolutely dominates the human heart since the fall of Adam. we also know that Eve was decieved by the devil and that Adam freely participated in her sin. But I have not found in my study of the Bible where the desire to sin originated in the pre-fall hearts of Adam and Eve. We might as well ask why God made them that way (of course we know Paul's response to that question in Romans 9): "does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?". On second thought, I would say the desire came from God (the potter). I don't mean to say that they were created with a flaw, for they were perfect pots from the hand of the Perfect Potter. Rather, the Potter made them as he did for a particular use; To ultimately cause everything in Heaven and upon the Earth to freely and from pure hearts give Him all praise and glory for the things that He has done. I will leave it to other to vainly attempt to drag Him into court. Do you have an answer other than Paul's? John |
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1429 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88131 | ||
Dear Tim, Could you please explain where you got the idea that anything I said, even remotely, suggests the right oof God to sin! It is impossible for God to sin. The very fact that you would imply that my posts lead one to such a conclision betrays the fact that you have not heard much of what I've been attempting to say(I made the same mistake myself just recently and had to apologize to Emmaus). It seems as if you must be firing back replies without taking the time to understand or even follow my train of thought (of course I do run off the track occassionaly). Take a break and get moved. Then perhaps, we can engage in thoughtful and courteous discourse. John |
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1430 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88133 | ||
DearJesusInMyHrt, You are correct in saying that God does not will us to sin. It is only by His grace that we ever refrain from sin! But God does use our sins as a means to fulfill His eternal purpose (see the story of Joseph and his brothers for an example or Acts 4:26-28) Satan does play a part, but the part of the devil also fulfills God's purpose. There is know way to thwart that which God has planned for each and every member of mankind. Is 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; God bless, John Reformed |
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1431 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88162 | ||
Hank, It seems as if I have done a poor job of explaining my position. When both you and Tim have arrived at the same conclusion and that conclusion (that God must have sinned) is absolutely antithetical to what I beleive. Frankly, I was at a loss as to how to respond. But then I read Joe's post on the question. I would urge you to give it a fair reading. ID# 88144 God Bless, John |
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1432 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88163 | ||
Dear Joe, Boy oh boy, am I glad that you're back! You filled in the blanks for me. I thank God that He has provided us with teachers. God Bless, John |
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1433 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88201 | ||
Dear Colin, You wrote: "As I understand free will, the one thing God can't ordain is our loving obedience. He can lead us to Him, but He deliberately can't make us love Him." Calvinists do not believe that God makes or forces any man to love Him. We take the position that the natural (unregenerate) man has no love for God. The reason we believe this abounds in the pages of Scripture. Look up "heart" in the "search" feature. It's not a pretty picture. So then, if God does not force us to love Him, and we have no natural affection for Him, how is it that anyone ever actually comes to love Him at all? The answer which we "reformed" types offer is that we (christians) love God because He first loved us. Now, one may ask does'nt God love everyone? Yes, He does. But the Lord has a special love for those whom He has chose. The Bible term is those whom He "foreknew". I apologize for not having the time to offer the scriptural foundation for what I have said, but I'm at work (I'm self-employed). If you care to discuss what I have claimed, I'd be delighted. Perhaps Joe could get in on the act. Actually, I taught him everything he knows :-) God Bless, John |
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1434 | Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88471 | ||
Hello Searcher, Before Moses even left for Egypt God told him that He was going to harden Pharoah's heart. Ex 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Searcher, I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying that if Pharoah had not hardened His own heart that the outcome would have been different? Because God clearly told Moses what He was going to do and to what end. In other words God (as in Acts 4:26-28) is telling us in His Word that that which was to occur had been fore-ordained. Rom 1:26 in context is a biblical principle which applies to all of fallen mankind. I just don't understand how it effects the question at hand. It seems to me that Pharoahs hardening his own heart could be the manifestation of the hardening that God had fore-told to Moses that He was going to perform. As an illustration: God told someone that He was going to cause John to write this post to Searcher. Then, I "happen" across your post and feel a desire in my heart to reply. Now...Who is ultimately responsible for my writting to you? I would say God... for who can resist His will? (Rom 9:19) John |
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1435 | Doesn't this seem like a contradiction? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88474 | ||
Hi Tim, "So, why would it be any more difficult for God to work the circumstances around Pharoah? Let's say that God KNEW that if Moses went in and issued an ultimatum to Pharoah that Pharoah would respond it the way that he did. Would it not be correct to say that both played a part? God provided the bait and Pharoah swallowed it! :-)" Is 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Of course God knew what Pharoah's response to Moses would be. But God could not have used Moses' ultimatum as bait, for God does not tempt anyone to do evil. Luring, setting traps and snares does not come to my mind when I think of God. It is more typical of men and devils, who are reduced to subterfuge and deciet to obtain their goals. What do think about the proposition that Pharoah's hardening of his own heart was a manifestation of God's decree to Moses that HE would harden Pharoah's heart. After-all, God said that He would do it, not based on fore-knowledge of how Pharoah would re-act to Moses' ultimatim, but according to His purpose, which was the releasing from bondage of the children of Israel. John PS God willing, I will get back to you on our previous conversation regarding the implications of "spiritual death". |
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1436 | Doesn't this seem like a contradiction? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88480 | ||
Hi Tim, but the fact remains that God hardened P's heart as part of His eternal pupose. I see this as an excellent example of God's soverignty and man's responsibility. God meaning hardening for good and man meaning it for evil. John |
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1437 | Doesn't this seem like a contradiction? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88511 | ||
Hank, One cannot simply ignore the fact that God told Moses That HE would harden Pharoah's heart. This was God's decree. Any subsequent hardening on Pharoah's part does not change or mitigate that which God (who always accomplishes His good pleasure) had pre-ordained. The remaining 9 verses, which attribute to Pharoah the hardening of his own heart, show that man is naturally bent against good and that God is not a puppetmaster. John Reformed PS: ("you and your predestined Calvinist brethern") I am gratified to see you recognize that it was God who is responsible for mine, and my brethren's theological perspectives :-) |
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1438 | Doesn't this seem like a contradiction? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88514 | ||
Hi Tim, The key to understanding what transpired in the later passages is: Ex 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. The hardening, which God had ordaind, was for a specific purpose and in accordance with His eternal plan. Once one has a true understanding of the depth of wickedness of the unregenerate man, the question of whether God over-rode P's or anyone else's will for that matter, simply doe's not arise. I see how an arminian would be perplexed. He believes that there still remains a remnant of good in every man. He must believe so in order to explain man's (supposed) ability to consider the offer of the gospel, and to make a decision for Christ out of a sincere desire springing out of a heart of stone. John |
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1439 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88550 | ||
Hi Ed, I'm sorry that I overlooked responding to this post of your's. I believe it is the closest we have ever come to agreement. You had said "... the ones I came to respect the most, where the ones that admitted after all the examination, all the theorizing it simply netted down to God’s love." (ID# 87844) It made me feel better, especially after all our wrangling with each other. The Lord is indeed a good God. Your Brother, John |
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1440 | Can the "natural man" desire Christ? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88609 | ||
Say Hey Tim, I don't say that God does'nt call everyone or that those He calls can'nt respond. What I do say is, that unless God has mercy and gives them the grace to believe, the natural man will respond negatively, which is consistant with his fallen nature! Adam and Eve responded negatively, with blaming everyone else. Cain replied to God with deceit and a wise-guy remark! This seems to support my point! "I fully believe in the depravity of man. I just don’t believe, as it seems most Calvinists do, that being ‘spiritually dead’ means that a person is now just a lump of inanimate flesh incapable of making choices or thinking anymore! :-)" Now Tim...tut, tut..Is that a fair statement. At least my mis-characterization was based on rational deduction. But maybe the smiley face at the end was to indicate a joke. Because you know that your statement is absurd on it's (smiley) face. "So, it goes back to the extent of the atonement again! :-) You see Christ dying only for some and only drawing some." Uh-oh! Wrong again my friend. I see Christ dying for all the Father sent Him (the elect), and saving all for whom He died. You Said "I see Christ dying for all and drawing all." But not saving all? And, pray tell, who's fault is that. It can't be the Father or the Son for all that the Father gives to Jesus are raised up on the last day. It can't be the Holy Spirit for it His job to apply salvation to those the Father sends to the Son. Now we're back to where we started! :-( Frankly Tim, in this case, your logic escapes me. Your perplexed friend, John |
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