Results 41 - 60 of 83
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Results from: Notes Author: JibbyJee Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88108 | ||
Dear Hank Prior to Dec. 2002, I had never even heard of John Calvin. Even since then I've only read a few scattered paragraphs of his writings for the INSTITUTES, and those were all quoted in passing within other books I've read. So I'm sorry if what you see me posting is "CALVINISM" to you, but to me it is NOTHING BUT THE GOSPEL. I am always more than happy to discuss differing interpretations and, if need be, correct my own understanding. Surely I'm not infallible. You've made it clear that you hate "ism's", and for the most part I agree with you. But don't be so obtuse as to forget to include "free willism" into the mix of "manmade" dogma! Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Tit 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Sincerely in the mercy of Christ, Jibbs |
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42 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88217 | ||
Dear Joe: Thanks for the resource list. I've already got www.whatloveisthis.com bookmarked (what love indeed!). I'm also dedicated to mining AOMIN at least 2 times a day, so James White is very familiar to me (it was his ministry that did me in last December). A friend of mine put White's 9 part rebuttal of Geisler's CBF from The Dividing Line on CD's which I keep in my car. Which reminds me, my car speakers haven't heard music for a long, long time..... Sincerely, your Hymn-singin', Doctrine lovin', Bible totin' Jesus Freak Reformed friend, JibbyJee |
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43 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88221 | ||
Greetings gracefull! As you have probably ascertained, I am a Calvinist (aka Reformed) in my theology. I want to thank my friend Tim for his brief and for the most part accurate synopsis of the differences between the two. The grand issue between the two sides is the issue of "free will". Now, respectfully, I must tell you that by reading your post I have gathered that you are already biased against Reformed theology. Have you studied this issue before, using the Bible, or have you been influenced by other people's opinions? I ask that because it seems like you already have some faulty preconceptions about what Calvinist's (that's me) believe. Please allow me to elaborate: You said: "Calvinist believe only certain ones are called and the rest were born without any hope of salvation. Choice is a nonissue." I will try to explain in as simple terms as I can what we really believe the Bible teaches. Please remember that we don't believe anything that we can't prove exegetically from the Bible. So please listen with an open heart and mind to what our interpretation of the Bible says even if you disagree with it. Okay. Looking at the above quote that you gave, I want you to stop for a few seconds and think about what you've said. "without any hope of salvation". Is this a truly Biblical statement? What I mean is-and this is vitally important--does God OWE them salvation (Rom. 6:23)??? Your words make man out to be an innocent victim of an unjust God! Don't you realize that all men, you and I included, are at enmity with God prior to being saved (Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:15-16) nor can we desire to be saved in our sinful (natural) condition (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 9:16; John 1:13; John 3:5-8). Don't you understand that NO ONE deserves to be saved?? I hope you will honestly consider those facts in light of your statement. The humble heart does not say "well if God didn't predestinate every man to salvation then He's not fair", but it DOES say "Lord!! Why did you save me, a wretched sinner??" Let us not forget for a moment that had God not regenerated our hearts so that we could believe (Titus 3:5) we, too, would still be in our sins and remain His enemy. And we wouldn't want it any other way because of our sin nature (Romans 1). The ONLY people who desire to know God and choose Him are those whom He has called according to His divine will and purpose. In short, Calvinists DO believe we have a choice to make, however, where we differ from Arminians is on how that choice comes to fruition. In Christ, Jibbs |
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44 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88263 | ||
Hi Doug! Welcome to the Forum! In #88006, I gave those same verses (with the exception of Heb 9:28) to Tim but he didn't give any response to the Reformed doctrine of particular atonement. Our good friend Hank, however, let us all hear his opinion. In Christ, JibbyJee |
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45 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88270 | ||
Dear gracefull: Thank you for your response. I really appreciate the Bible verses and not just mere opinion in support of your theology, even if I disagree with your interpretation in the context of all of Scripture. We could continue to discuss this issue (which is hard to do considering it hits on soooo many other side-issues and makes us prone to distraction) but first I want to pinpoint one aspect of your last post. This one sentence, I believe, hits the nail on the head. Here it is: "You seem to be saying we believe after this renewal..however I believe we are renewed or regenerated/born again after we BELIEVE and ACCEPT Jesus." Herein we have a conundrum. I believe the Bible clearly teaches about our inability to come to God on our own. We simply can't do it (John 6:65). He must first give us the gift of faith (Eph 2:8-9). Natural man doesn't even understand he NEEDS a savior, because he cannot see himself for who he really is (Rom. 3:10-11; 1 Cor. 2:14). Keep in mind that because of this depravity and rejection of God, man is guilty and the sin deserves to be punished in order for God to remain just. With these things in mind, please consider why I believe God doesn't merely stop at making salvation "possible" for everyone, but actually SAVES all whom He chooses to save(Rom. 9:15). Salvation is dependent upon nothing else but the mercy of God (Rom. 9:11-16) who works all things to guarantee not one of His chosen people will be lost (Eph. 1:11; Eph. 3:11-12; Rom. 8:28-30; John 10:28-29). No one is suddenly condemned because they "reject" the Gospel, but rather they are under condemnation whether they hear it or not, let alone reject it (John 3:18)! The Gospel SAVES, it does not CONDEMN!!! Please consider this example I've posted before and give me your answer. Imagine you are standing before the throne of God standing next to a man who is not a follower of Christ. What is it that differentiates the two of you? If God did for the man next to you everything that He did to save you, then the only difference is that you believed. But here's the kicker--WHAT WAS IN YOU THAT MADE YOU BELIEVE, THAT THE GUY NEXT TO YOU WAS LACKING? That IS the question we all must answer before our Holy Lord. In Christ, Jibbs |
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46 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88367 | ||
Hi Tim! Good to see you back. Hope the move went smoothly for ya. Although your response gave me a hearty chuckle, I must admit it was only because I have come to expect a bit more from you. My concluding paragraph about the Trinity was actually a rhetorical question that had very little to do with the meat of my post, yet you chose it to reply it instead of some of the other questions that I asked about Arminianism. I know you've heard all the arguments against the Arminian interpretation of verses that teach that Christ died to make salvation possible for "ALL", so I won't go there with you again. But please, with sugar on top, answer some of the other questions I asked, these specifically: 1. Did Christ INTEND to save ALL men on the Cross? 2. If Christ paid for ALL sins of ALL men throughout ALL the Earth, on what basis are we judged? 3. (Regarding #2) Is unbelief a sin? 4. What was in you that caused you to believe, that wasn't in those who "reject" the Gospel? If I don't talk to you later tonight, have a safe 4th!! Your brother in Christ, Jibbs |
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47 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88516 | ||
Hi gracefull! Hope you had a safe 4th! I tried my best to blow the tips of my fingers off! I won't be lighting firecrackers off in my hands anymore, that's for sure! Thank you for answering the question honestly, and not dodging the issue like many people seem to do. The doctrine of the sovereignty of God is not one that is popular amongst modern Christians, and for the most part, I believe this stems from a lack of correct Biblical understanding of God and from prevelant erroneous teaching within the church itself. Also, I think the two are in a vicious cycle that continuosly feed each other through the generations. Back to the discussion itself, I want to first off recommend a book for your consideration on this issue. CHOSEN BY GOD by RC Sproul is an outstanding book on the nature of salvation. Dr. Sproul does a much better explaining things with clarity and humility than I could ever hope to do. But nevertheless, I will continue to offer my beliefs for you to consider in regard to Scripture. 1. Do you think your faith is something that you muster up within yourself, or a gift given to you by God? (1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:5-7; Eph. 2:8-9) The Bible frequently shows us that all one has to do to be saved is to believe in God and the One he has sent. And I would totally agree. But in none of those verses does it tell us HOW the belief came about within us. The Bible does say that we are enemies of God (Gen. 6:5; Rom. 5:10; Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:15-16; Col. 1:21; James 4:4) before being saved. So I still don't understand how you can claim that your CHOICE is the difference between you and the next guy. Prior to regeneration, what virtue was in you but not in the unbelieving one? Basically, you are saying "All that guy has to do is believe. Simple as that". Now the "believe" part I agree with. But it's not that simple. Jesus elaborates on this point. Let's take a closer look: Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Please compare this to salvation (indeed it is directly connected already) and the context of our discussion. Notice Jesus didn't say "He that is of God hears the words of God. If you want to be of God, then all you have to do is hear." That would be putting the cart before the horse. Jesus simply tells it like it is. Those who are of God (regenerated) will hear Him and those who aren't won't. So how does this connect to our discussion? I believe regeneration precedes faith. God must give each of us "ears to hear" so to speak BEFORE we can believe. The example of John 8:47 supports this, as does John 6:65 and many other verses. So we're back to square one. Does God give everyone ears to hear? If so, then what was Jesus talking about in John 8:47? If not, then could it be that ALL of salvation is to the glory of God and NONE of it belongs to man? In Christ, JibbyJee |
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48 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88823 | ||
Hi gracefull! I noticed you have made a few posts since I replied to this one over the weekend and was wondering if you've had a chance to read and contemplate my response to you. I'm eager to hear from you. In Christ, JibbyJee |
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49 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88987 | ||
Dear gracefull: Thank you for the update. There is no need to rush an answer. I'm here everyday and don't plan on going anywhere, so take all the time you need to study the Bible and pray about the issue. I know how hard it can be to think outside our own "box" (I've only been 'reformed' for 6 months), so I will be happy to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability. Also, here is a link on regeneration that I hope you will scrutinize under the microscope of Scripture. It was a significant clencher to my change of mind and admission that my view of synergism (regeneration as a result of faith) was wrong. I hope it helps you. Here's the web address: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html In Christ, JIBBS |
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50 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89092 | ||
Greetings Tim! My friend, something tells me that's a loaded question. I know you've gone over the issue many times. So if you're trying to "win me back" to the Arminian camp--YOU'RE IN A LOSING BATTLE! LoL! It all goes back to the BEGINNING, Tim. And it just so happens that you and I differ sharply on what God did in the BEGINNING. From this disagreement, very little of our theology will be similiar. Nevertheless, I will entertain you. I believe the following examples clearly teach regeneration preceding faith: Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Read it carefully. Even dig out your Bible and read the whole chapter in context. Notice Jesus didn't say "If you want to be of God, then all you need to do is hear" (or believe!). No, he said you CANNOT hear because you ARE NOT of GOD. Being of God comes first, then you hear, not vice versa. Of course, we are now talking about the effectual calling of God. ONLY those predestined to be saved will be effectually called (Rom 8:28-30). Oh, and furthermore, we are all alike children of the devil, until, by His grace, God regenerates us to hear his message by giving us a heart of flesh (Eze 36:26). Thus, regeneration precedes faith. Faith isn't something we do. It's what we don't do. It's an emptying, a turning away from self toward God--the Author, the Perfector, the Giver, and the Object of our faith. Salvation is all of grace, individually by the will of God alone and for His purposes alone (John 1:13, Rom. 9:16, Eph 1:4, 2 Thess 2:13). In Christ, JIBBS |
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51 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89383 | ||
Greetings Micko! And welcome to the Forum! I believe we are living in some incredible times...much like the Reformation days! I have some friends that post in here also...NE14POOL, Joseph3, nivlac5. Also Reformer Joe and John Reformed are solid regulars from the traditional reformed faith. Hope to have more fellowship in the future! God Bless! Soli Deo Gloria! JibbyJee ps. Brother TimMoran, I promise to reply asap, but haven't time due to an unexpected stay in the hospital over the weekend (appendix). But hopefully things will get back to normal in the next few days. --Jibbs |
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52 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89447 | ||
Dear Tim: Well, my FRIEND, I do think I've referred to you as my friend several times during our conversations, and of course I do consider you one of my forum pals. But now-----for what I know you don't like------ I have a "special" love for my like-minded friends and brothers of the faith. It's kinda like the "special" love God has for His OWN ELECT SHEEP. Of course, I suppose I could limit myself to a vanilla-flavored love for everyone, (my wife, daughter, friends, etc.) like Arminians do with God, but ya'know, I'm just a Neapolitan kind of guy!! IN Christ, JIBBS |
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53 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89496 | ||
Tim My friend. :) Why don't you let us know what you think? I would say WHY Adam and Eve sinned is a mystery. They did not have sin natures, however they were not perfect either. They had both the ability to sin and the inclination to sin based upon their human nature. God, by His very nature, knew of and ordained sins to happen. It doesn't make him the author of ADAM'S (or anyone's) sins, contrary to Arminian tradition. Jesus Christ, the REDEEMER, is an ETERNAL being, which to me, says God had redemption purposed BEFORE Creation! Having such a purpose in His very identity and nature, how could sin NOT have entered into the world? Endless speculation about WHY Adam sinned is irrevelant. It has nothing to do with OUR fallen condition today in which we are literally SLAVES TO SIN. Tell me, Tim, what is it in us, if not our will, that is "Enslaved to sin"?? Please read Romans 6:5-23 In Christ, JIBBS |
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54 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89499 | ||
Dear Hank: My point would be exactly that--that you infer. If my post was meant to say anything at all, which it really wasn't (other than a little joking between Tim and I) it's this--BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER! That's it! There are Arminians that are elect, just as there are Calvinists that are elect. But neither have exclusivity within them. Both contain tares and both contain wheat. I just happen to believed the reformed view is the correct one on most issues. In Christ, Jibbs |
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55 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89653 | ||
Dear Tim You said that only the Arminian can produce verses to support their views. What an outrageous statement. When it comes down to exegesis, the Reformed position is the only one that stands SOLA SCRIPTURA, while the Arminian view must, by sheer necessity, import something into the text that is either outside Scripture or a blatant misuse of CONTEXT. You certainly do have your traditions, (emphasis on traditions) of which I used to hold as well until I was challenged to truly THINK about the issues at hand in light of ALL of Scripture. You all have your "Pet" proof-texts that have been consistently shown to be illogical or irrevelent given their own context (i.e. John 12:32), yet the heart of the issues never seem to be touched upon. Some of the questions you ask indicate that even though you say you know what Calvinist believe, one is left to wonder if that's really true. For example, "If God can draw some, why can't He draw all"? Now, don't you understand that it's not a matter of "CAN GOD" but rather "WILL GOD". I believe the DRAWING is directly related to SALVATION and you have shown me absolutely NOTHING for me to consider to the contrary. If you won't deal with John 6:35-45 within it's own context, and instead choose to quote John 12:32 from the hip, then please take the time to reconcile the FACT that those who are drawn are given eternal life (John 6:44). You see, there is nothing in John 12:32 to suggest that it is referring to salvation. In Christ, JIBBS |
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56 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89696 | ||
Dear Brad Thanks for the reply. I hope Tim knows that I was not being "hard" on him at all. It's not personal. My last post to him was hastily put together since I was very short on time, hence the slightly to-the-point tone I took. Now, the point of this whole discussion is that Tim will only go as far into the discussion as his traditions allow. But as soon as LOGIC shows the absurdity of the universal atonement position based on Scripture, the head goes in the sand. I'll discuss the issue with anyone, as long as they consider for a few seconds that the interpretation they've had for 30 years just may not be the Law of the Land. THerefore, my challenge stands as is: Show me on what basis anyone is judged for their sin if Christ paid for every sin of every person on the Cross. Right there the Arminian has some serious logical problems in his position. Yet not one word has been said in any attempt to offer a Biblical explanation. I can explain it, but then again, you have to be a big bad Calvinist for the Atonement (THE CORNERSTONE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!) to be a logical aspect of the faith. Regarding presuppositional philosophy, I respectfully submit to you that it IS the Reformed position that attempts to honestly interpret Scripture using proper hermaneutical methods. If there is anything consistent in Arminian theology, it would be consistent misuse of Scripture context to support--you got it--their own unBiblical presuppositions. Tim thinks that by offering a verse that says Christ died for all without interpreting it in it's own context somehow counts as exegesis and the verse becomes the ABSOLUTE standard by which we should view the atonement. Here's how I see it--I have no problem with someone being in disagreement with me, but at least take the time to explain yourself beyond the quoting of a few proof-texts. These issues are eternally vital! If I'm in error, then please take the time to show me why in an intellectually honest way and--ABOVE ALL--we should ALL keep our minds open and be willing to be taught. Have a good night. In Christ, JIBBS PS You mentioned presuppostional philosophy. Are you into reading Van Til or Bahnsen? |
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57 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89698 | ||
Dear Tim You're right, please forgive me. That was stupid and utterly Calvinistic of me to look at what the words actually IMPLIED and respond to the implication instead of the statement itself. Put it this way Tim. I've tried and tried to get you to be honest with the text and CONTEXT, yet you want more than anything to hold on to your interpretations as absolute rule. But you don't give any solid explanations or definitive rebuttals of the reformed arguments. That's fine, I can't force you to see something you don't see. BUT, the Reformed view makes absolutely perfect sense to me and many others and I don't have to do anything more than keep the CONTEXT of Scripture in my heart and mind when attempting to understand it. I couldn't interpret the Bible and come to an Arminian view without being dishonest with myself. If there is sin in that, than so be it. I know in my heart that God has me seeking absolute truth so I have nothing to be afraid of when someone confronts my understanding of Scripture. In fact, I pray that He brings others into my life to help teach and correct me when I'm wrong. I pray that He always gives me a mind ready to learn and a heart willing to be taught. I see the Bible as a beautifully adorned landscape. On the surface, it boasts the most amazing array of wonders and majesty. Yet below the surface their lies even more--treasures of gold and diamonds and pearls. Sometimes you gotta dig to find the loot. In Christ, JIBBS PS Regarding the silly statement about God electing all men (which you obvious believe, in spite of reality) please read and ponder this: Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now tell me Tim: ARE ALL MEN ELECT? OHHHH...which reminds me..you wanted verses showing that Jesus only died for the elect...HERE ONE IS AGAIN: Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know MINE OWN, and MINE OWN know me, Joh 10:15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP. Let me guess...you'll quote "we all like sheep have gone astray"...therefore, ALL are sheep, right? Ok, Tim, if you say so ol' buddy. If I'm getting too sarcastic, let me know. I promise you it's in good fun. No hard feelings. |
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58 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89883 | ||
Hank Did I ever say I knew it all? Nope. I'm absolutely willing to be taught and corrected. Are you?? I'm not here to point out anything about anyone. That's not my place, but I DO believe in TRUTH and so I disagree with your notion that these issues are eternally insignificant. I believe how we understand the Scriptures is eternally VITAL, in fact. So your admonition toward ecumenicalism, while I'm sure is well-intentioned, falls far short of honoring God and His truth. If standing up for the Word of God as ABSOLUTE truth is offensive to anyone, then I guess I'm just gonna be offensive to be around. If you can thoughtfully and convincingly show me I'm in error, then by the grace of God, I will flee darkness and embrace the light. But don't tell me light and darkness NEED to coexist. God, by His grace, has made the Scriptures alive to me, and has given me reason to be convinced that what I believe is true. He is perfect and so is His Word. There is nothing wrong with being right. Properly understanding the Word doesn't make someone lose the ability to "grow in the faith"! How absurd! If that's true, then none of us should concretely believe anything!! I think the two of us are diametrically opposed to each other in the most fundamental ways. I beleive Scripture plainly says something--you say I'm twisting it. You say Scripture plainly says something--I say you're ignoring context to support a presupposition. Who's right? Both of us? Let's let the cat out of the bag. You absolute HATE Calvinism and therefore refuse to seriously consider what we believe. You said it well yourself in "I turn him off". Talk about unwilling to be corrected! I want you to know I always listen to your arguments and give them due consideration in light of Scripture. Had I not had an open mind to listening to someone else, I too would still be an Arminian. P.S. Straw men examples like your "puppet" analogy show me once again that you don't have any idea what we believe. Perhaps I should "turn you off"???? IN Christ, JIBBS |
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59 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89884 | ||
Greetings Tim! You said "Are all men elect? I don't know! Where in Scripture does it specify how many are elect? ;-)" I think you missed my point. If someone dies without believing on Christ, are they elect? I believe how we understand the word 'elect' has significant value to our interpretation of Scripture. Take care! In Christ, JIBBS |
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60 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89950 | ||
Hank Officially, I have only been a "Calvinist" for about 7 months now. I had previously basically believed the "reformed" way (unknowingly), although I've never gone to a Calvinistic church in my life. Of the 3 churches I've called home, all were very Arminian. But about 7 months ago a friend of mine challenged me on the issue of the scope of the atonement, something I had not previously considered in much depth, and I realized I was grossly inconsistent in my understanding of the Biblical doctrine of the atonement. So I conceded after many, many sleepless nights trying to reconcile Scripture with fleshly instinct. Instinct tells me I'm in control of my life, the Bible tells another story. Perhaps you've missed it in my previous posts, but I have frequently qualified my opinions as being open to debate and scrutiny. I'm as prone to being wrong as anyone! All I ask is for honest, intelligent discussion of the issues. That's it. But for some reason it's tougher than boiled owl to keep any discussions from getting convoluted and sidetracked. Questions are constantly ignored and dodged (although I'm sure not always on purpose) and it seems like very little consideration is made of the Calvinist position. If you want to go play somewhere else, that's fine with me, but the invitation stands open indefinitely for you to come chat with me in the future. I care about properly dividing the Word because it is a Biblical mandate. If I come across what I find to be incorrect teaching, I will ask questions. Maybe I'll help to correct the issue, or maybe I'll be corrected. Either way, truth will prevail. I don't always agree with you, but for the most part I've enjoyed the fellowship with you. Honestly, I sometimes feel like you are very disrespectful to others (especially Calvinists) and tend to speak in a condescending and pedantic tone. Perhaps we all tend to do that in a way. I think sometimes the naked words on the screen do little to convey the full impact of the intended message. Other times, let's fact it, you and I get frustrated with each other and break out the morter and hand grenades. It's expected, although I hope in the future, if we have future contact, we can be more patient and gentle with each other. But I can understand the desire to simply shake hands and go our seperate ways (I get to walk off into the sunset!!). Best wishes in the future Hank. In Christ, JIBBS 1 Cor. 12:13 |
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