Results 21 - 40 of 61
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Results from: Notes Author: Emmy Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | Where does it say two were in the field | Matt 24:40 | Emmy | 117223 | ||
This is an interesting thought. Matt 24:40 is not about the rapture at all. This event takes place after the tribulations of Revelation. This event is the gathering of God's elect after the tribulations and return of Christ. This is evident when one starts reading at Matt 24:29 which start out saying "Immediately after the tribulations of those days.....". This is a gathering of among all remaining alive on the earth at the time of Christ's return the ones that have remained faithful to Christ up to the time He arrives. Angels do this gathering on a command to do so. Matt 24: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The above is the same event as in Rev chapter 14. Sequence of events in this chapter. 14:1 Christ on Zion with 144000 who were sealed 14:6 An angel preaches the gospel to all on earth 14:8 An angel announces Babylon was destroyed. 14:9 An angels warns about the mark of the beast 14:15-16 An angel is told to reap the elect of God. This gathering is after Christ's return, but before the second gathering which is the gathering to Armageddon of those who will fight Christ there. To answer the question about who is left: The gathering of the elect by the first angel of God's elect, means the ones that are left are not gathered by this angel. The ones that are left are abandoned by this angel who does the gathering. This is in agreement with the New World Translation of Matt 24:40 which states Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field:one will be taken, and the other be abandoned.\ This gathering is not in the right place in the sequence of event to be talking about the "rapture" |
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22 | Where does it say two were in the field | Matt 24:40 | Emmy | 117318 | ||
Hi: No need to make me aware as to whether or not I am Jehovah Wintess. I am not. Interesting that that is the point on which you make comment. In this case the New World Translation says exactly the same as does any other, namely that the elect are gathered, and the rest not being elect are not gathered by this angel. The point made was that this gathering is after the tribulation, and before Armageddon, and is therefore not in the right sequence of events to be the rapture, as many believe. The ones being gathered in the first reaping (gathering) are The Elect. The ones left are those who are not the elect, but many of these are reaped (gathered) by the second angel who reaps grapes to be trampled in the wine press of God's wrath (Armageddon) We have no affiliation with any religious organization. One reason for this is that different organizations teach different things, and so we are left to our own devices as to find out which one is actually teaches truth. In addition some organizations have some things right, but other ideas incorrect. By the time one figures that out, one need no longer ask any one what is true. We depend on the scriptures and Holy Spirit who opens an understanding for them. " The annointing you have received teaches you all things and you have no need of a teacher" is a quote that should be taken to heart or believed, and give any true believer confidence to test everything that all others say to see if it is true or false. One cannot depend on others to interpret things for them, but depend on Holy Spirit, Christ and Father alone. These three are in perfect agreement. Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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23 | Where does it say two were in the field | Matt 24:40 | Emmy | 117350 | ||
We are a small bible study group with no official connection at present to any official religious organization. Henry and Emmy |
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24 | Where does it say two were in the field | Matt 24:40 | Emmy | 117807 | ||
Hi: It does not take many to gather for Christ to show up too. We have a study group of about 12. This seems really good for getting together and seriously studying scriptures. A group this size leaves everyone a chance to contribute to the discussions. Even two is enough for a group. CHrist will join two or three as well as more. Numbers are not that important, but rather what is in the hearts of those present. Wish more would comment on content of what we post. My experience so far is mostly put down for being suspect of being JW which we are not and which we do not agree with. The comments are mostly left there, rather than posting a good logical presentation to the points made. Scripture for the above comments on numbers in a group. Matt 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst." This says to us it does not matter how small the groups are, but that they keep in touch to encourage one another. The passage says merely to keep in touch with like minded people, not necessarily to join a larger group Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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25 | Where does it say two were in the field | Matt 24:40 | Emmy | 117857 | ||
Hi: Thanks for your response. My comment on responses was posted in hopes that some would respond in a more helpful way. I am not offended no matter what is posted, unless I were to post something offensive. I would cease posting before that happens, as that is of use to no one. The comment about posting was also not directed at you, but is generally the case. The fact that you did not comment on something you say you do not understand very well is commendable. To put out postings that are wrong is not the best thing one could do. Sincerely HEnry and Emmy |
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26 | Where does it say two were in the field | Matt 24:40 | Emmy | 117908 | ||
Hi : I have stated on several occasions that I do not agree with JW Watchtower, including deity of Christ which I understand they do not believe. I would much rather see answers to my postings rather than go this JW situation. The thing is I have made one quote from NWT which to me says exactly the same as any other translation. On the point in question NWT used abandoned, where other translations use left. These words both mean the same in the context as I read it. SIncerely Emmy and Henry |
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27 | Where does it say two were in the field | Matt 24:40 | Emmy | 117915 | ||
Hi Brad: No offense taken. Wish someone would respond to my posting on "The question of logic and timing". Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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28 | What does Romans 2:12 mean? | Rom 1:19 | Emmy | 118943 | ||
Hi: Romans1:9 Means that people from the beginning of time of them being on earth, right to today, God has a hand in their consciousness, and gives all people evidence that He is God. If people ignore this, they have no excuse that will hold up at judgement. This was true for gentiles who did not have the OT laws, and is still true for people today after Christ, whose offer of salvation is open to ALL. It says HE died once for ALL, so there is no exception. Strange as it seems at first, just as in OT times Gentiles did not have the law, but are going to be held accountable, so today in NT times, those that do not hear the gospel, still have within them knowledge of God. If they follow through with what God has put in their consciousness, and draw close to Him, Christ will save them as He has promissed that HE died for ALL. If one thinks this is not possible, namely to be saved by Christ without having heard the gospel, one should be able to explain the following: Does it say in scripture that one HAS to hear the gospel in order to be saved by Christ? How did all American Natives get to hear the gospel before America was discovered by Europeans? If they did not hear the gospel, and it is necessary to hear it to be saved, then how can they be included among Christ's offer of salvation is for ALL ? My point is this: The gospel has not been heard by ALL. The offer of salvation is open to ALL. Therefore the gospel is not necessary for salvation. Even if the gospel was heard by all today with modern communications, it was not so for the last 2000 years. To us the only answer is that God makes himself known to man as explained in Romans 1 above. This knowledge must be enough to have people draw near to God and He to them, to save them as he saves anyone who hears the gospel and draws near and is saved. I am not in any way diminishing the importance of the gospel, but pointing out that as in OT God could reach and save Gentiles who did not hear the law, So in NT times HE can reach and save people who have not heard the gospel, since it says he died for all, but all have not heard the gospel. What say you? Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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29 | What does Romans 2:12 mean? | Rom 1:19 | Emmy | 119026 | ||
This is very interesting Steve. Thanks for your post. Agree with you that Christ died so that All might be redeemed, though we know not all will take the offer. 1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If Christ desires that all men be saved, means He makes the offer of salvation to all. If he did not make the offer to one person, then His desire would be NOT to save that person. John 5:24 you quoted. This verse speaks of ones who do hear the gospel. It says nothing about those that have not heard it, so we cannot conclude that those that do not hear will not be saved. It defies logic to do so. For the following verse, text is in small letters my COMMENT INSERTED IN CAPITAL LETTERS. John 6:44-45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. THIS IS INDEPENDENT OF WHETHER ONE HAS THE GOSPEL TO READ OR NOT. IT IS NOT THE GOSPEL THAT DRAWS ONE TO CHRIST, BUT THE FATHER IN HEAVEN HIMSELF. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets'and they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. THE WRITTEN GOSPEL IS NOT MENTIONED AS BEING REQUIRED. WE HAVE TO HEAR DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER AND LEARN FROM HIM TO COME TO CHRIST. HAVING THE GOSPEL BUT NOT BEING DRAWN IS OF NO USE TO US. Your comment: "The only way to Jesus is by hearing the word of God."cannot be found, at least that I know of, in the gospel. The only way to Christ is to be drawn by the FATHER is. In His drawing people to Christ, I do not see how that can be limited to the gospel, since many never came in contact with it. The great commission as it is called. Mark 16:15. The statement "go into all the world" is addressed to the 11 disciples. We assume they did what they were told. Many assume that that means all believers are to do this, which is not so, because it contradicts this passage. James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. The job it is of an angel in the end times to preach the gospel to all who dwell on the earth. It is therefore not possible for man to accomplish this in the first place at this point in time. If it were the task of men to do it, then why send an angel as well? Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; This preaching of the gospel seems to leave no one out. All hear it. even so not all heed it at this time. It is probably done as a last chance for all to change their minds and accept Christ. Lastly: Your comment we have NO biblical examples of any person being saved without God's special revelation of Himself to that person. Logically: No bear in your house does not mean they do not exist. You are perfectly correct however. The FATHER Himself draws us to Christ(We all get a personal revelation from the Father) but again that cannot be limited to the written gospel, since many thoughout history have had no access to it. We have to be careful what we teach, because teaching it wrong is not a good idea. The stricter judgement of teachers probably has something to do with teaching wrong things and thereby leading others astray, or harming them in some way. This is not to say that bible study and discussion is not good, quite the contrary, we learn lots from it. Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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30 | What does Romans 2:12 mean? | Rom 1:19 | Emmy | 119087 | ||
Hi Hank: Thanks for the reply. No need to have a yes vs no session. I comment to things I see written on the forum to encourage people on it to think logically and read into any passsage only what it says. I post only those things I honestly believe are true,and logical. When I look at a passage, I test its meaning this way. 1. What does it actually say? Don't omit any thought 2. What does it not say ? Do not add anything it does not say. 3. Does the meaning I think it has, agree with all else I know about scriptures. If there is a contradiction between any two verses, then we try to change our thinking to resolve the conflict. This is how you can easily get us to change our thinking about any passage. Point out how one thought I post contradicts another thought I post. If a thought you hold contradicts thoughts I hold, then change in my thinking is not so easy to make. I thinks works the same for you and others. The challenge for us then, is to read all passages accurately.without adding or taking anything away,and having its meaning agree with other related thoughts in our belief. If you want to point out where my thinking is wrong on being able to be saved without having access to the gospel for instance do this. Send me the verse that you think states my thought is wrong. I'll send you my interpretration. You look for a contradiction between the verse in question and anything I have said so far on the forum. If you find a contradiction in my statements, I'll thank you for pointing it out and try to find out what is wrong with my thinking. We are into bible study for one purpose. To find out the truth about what the bible says. Alternatively you could post a passage that you think states one can only be saved if one has contact with the gospel Or that if they donot have the gospel they cannot be saved. Sincerely Henry and Emmy. |
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31 | What does Romans 2:12 mean? | Rom 1:19 | Emmy | 119141 | ||
Hi BradK Yours is a good plan. It reflects very well how we approach it It will work if God is with you. Sincerely Henry and Emmy. |
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32 | What does Romans 2:12 mean? | Rom 1:19 | Emmy | 119232 | ||
Hi Hank This is the point I tried to make in the previous post. If I have the scriptures interpreted incorrectly, the best way for you to convince me of that fact is to point out that two interpretations I hold contradict each other. I hold that if two interpretations conflict, then at least one of them is wrong if not both, and I have to rethink the interpretations I hold. In fact discovering a contradiction within ones interpretations can lead to real learning. If you were trying to convince me that one has to have the gospel in order to be saved Try to find a contradiction within any statements I made on the topic. I will make some statements here that I consider to be TRUE. 1. Jesus died so that all sinners would have a chance at salvation. 2. No one can be saved except through Christ. 3. Jesus desires that all turn from sin and repent so they can be saved. 4. Not all have been aware of the gospel in their lifetime. If interested and you believe one of these statements is FALSE can you post a passage that you think supports that it is FALSE. Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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33 | What does Romans 2:12 mean? | Rom 1:19 | Emmy | 119235 | ||
Hi Steve: 1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I agree that this passage talks about praying. I understand it to say that this kind of praying is good and acceptable to God our Saviour who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I do not follow your reasoning when you say I took this out of context. This passage says two things. 1. Praying in the way indicated is good and acceptable to Christ 2. Christ desires that all men come to accept the offer of salvation , not just Kings and rulers. Are you saying the second statement is FALSE? If so why ? Can you find a passage that says Jesus intended to offer salvation to some but not others? In both verse 1 and 3,4 it says "all men". To me means all men, not just kings and rulers. Kings and rulers are mentioned in particular because we have a real interest in them doing things right for us to have a peaceful life. It says to me pray for all men, but especially for rulers. Here are some different translations of the same verses: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. 2Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble contemplation. 3This is the way our Savior God wants us to live. 4He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we've learned MSG ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. As you make your requests, plead for God's mercy upon them, and give thanks. 2Pray this way for kings and all others who are in authority, so that we can live in peace and quietness, in godliness and dignity. 3This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. ---------- John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. You ADD that this hearing and learning comes only through the gospel. The verse does not actually say what you added. My test: What does a verse say and what does a verse not say. You are limiting the Father from all other forms of communication which are listed as being used in the past. Does it actually say that the gospel is the only way left ? If so where ? Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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34 | What does Romans 2:12 mean? | Rom 1:19 | Emmy | 119238 | ||
Hi Hank: Your question: Why do you place the burden on me to provide Scripture to prove your four statements false when you have not provided Scripture to prove them true? If I am wrong, I desire to know. You can help by trying to point out contradictions in my thinking. The statements: 1. Jesus died so that all sinners would have a chance at salvation. 2. No one can be saved except through Christ. 3. Jesus desires that all turn from sin and repent so they can be saved. 4. Not all have been aware of the gospel in their lifetime. My reasons for thinking this: Statement 3: 1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Verse 4 says Christ desires that all men come to salvation. Statement 2: Acts4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." Statement 1: The only way to be saved is through His death and resurrection, therefore He died So all men would have a chance at salvation. Statement 4 is not in the gospel Here is why I believe it to be true. The scriptures were not written till well after a generation after the time of Christ. Therefore many died without having seen or heard the gospel Paul got as far as Rome, but the church was mostly in hiding, so very few in Rome actually Got to hear him, let alone those in Norway, and Russia. His letter got to the churches he wrote, but most others in these communities did not read or hear them. Can one argue that the gospel got to China, Australia, Mexico, Canada, South and Central America within the 1st say 100 years after Christ ? During exploration of the New World, is there record that one nation or tribe in any land were talking about, or had heard about the story of Christ being crucified so that they could be saved ? It seems that if the Europeans had found a tribe in the New World teaching Christ, then that would have been noticed and recorded In the excavations of cities or villages of cultures in the new world, has any one ever found any hint that these cultures made religious relics as evidence of Christ crucified ? Just because there is no evidence, does not constitute proof that it did not exist logically speaking, but, let me ask you, do you think the gospel existed in America before 1492 when Columbus came? If these statements are all true: 1. Christ died so all have a chance at redemption 2. Christ desires that all come to salvation 3. The only way to salvation is through Christ 4. Not all heard the gospel. Then the only conclusion that can be drawn is Christ desires to and can save those who have never heard the gospel. Can you point out a problem with either the scriptures quoted, or the logical truth of the statements made. Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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35 | Reconciling Rom 8:39 with Heb 10:26 | Rom 8:39 | Emmy | 116633 | ||
Romans 8:39 says that no one is able to force you to your saved state. Heb 10:26 Leaves open the option for a person to change his/her own mind. That is one can through his/her actions lose saved state. Angels were not spared if they sinned. If one is saved, he is no more than restored. Being restored does not mean free will no longer applies. It was never true that one could not rebel against God. Angels who have not fallen in the past can still choose to do so. Man fell from grace in the beginning. There was a way made for us to be restored. Being restored does not mean anyhting goes from that time on without a possibility of falling from grace again. If this happens it says in Hebrews we cannot be restored a second time. Simply stated No one else can destroy our restored state of grace, but we have the free will to cancel the restored state by our own actions. take care |
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36 | Reconciling Rom 8:39 with Heb 10:26 | Rom 8:39 | Emmy | 116670 | ||
With all respect. Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we shall do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. Verse 1: Let "US" clearly refers to people being addresses, namely the Hebrews. They are born again, and are encouraged to strive to become mature in understanding and living. They came through repentance and Christ's sacrifice to faith. One who has repented and made alive in Christ through the Spirit should not dwell on these beginning things of faith. Verse 2: Neither should they continually go one about washings, the fact that there is a resurrection, and a judgement. These are basic things. Verse 3: We should instead press on to mature, being skilled in righteousness. Even this only happens if God permits it. He is in full control of this, and we are not. Verse 4: Does not switch to talking about someone else, but these self same people. It is speaking of those who have received the Holy Spirit, who were enlightened by it, tasted heavenly gifts, Verse 5: have known the word of God, and the power of the age to come. This cannot be talking about people who have never been born of the Spirit, since it says they were partakers of it. Verse 6: If after having experienced all of the above, one then falls away, he cannot come to repentance a second time and expect through it to be accepted again though Christ was crucified, because that is like crucifying Him a second time. If people were not able to do this, or if one COULD NOT fall away, this warning is meaningless, and aimed at no one. Here is the logic for that: Unbelievers are not partakers of the Holy Spirit, so it cannot be addressing them. People born of the Spirit who remain in it, are not trying to make use of the sacrifice of Christ a second time. This passage speaks of those trying to come to repentance a SECOND time, and use the sacrifice of Christ a second time. The mere mention of this situation let alone the warning against trying it means the possibility of people trying to do this exists. The only reason one would try to come to repentance again and to make use of the sacrifice a scond time, is that the benefit of the repentance and the sacrifice the first time had worn off. ie that person fell away. He would not have to come to repentance, or try to crucify Christ again for himself. We cannot count on the opinion of others, but only the word of God as it is revealed to us through the Spirit. Holy Spirit is our teacher, and we can trust no other, no matter what their status. Ryrie could be wrong. 1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, "remain in him". If one is open to it, the words "remain in him" say "do not try to leave and expect to come back" To teach that once saved no matter what is not sound or consistant with what has happened to both man and angels alike in the past. I can only say that I cannot convince you of this, but that the whole of the bible can be interpreted with falling away as a possibility without contradiction in any part of it. There might be contradiction between these statements and what others believe, but these statements are not self contradictory to my knowledge, or to any scripture passage that I can think of. Sincerely Emmy and Henry |
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37 | is there security of the believer | Rom 8:39 | Emmy | 116767 | ||
Hank I have encountered these arguements before, but we disagree. Our premises are opposite on this point. Mine: One can fall away. Your: One cannot fall away. We can therefore not both be right on this point. Logical conclusions: If you are right then I have nothing to lose, since you claim that if one is born again, though he sin or hold erroneous beliefs he cannot lose life. If I am right, I am likely to be more vigilant, knowing the possibility exists that things could turn out wrong in the end. Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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38 | is there security of the believer | Rom 8:39 | Emmy | 116855 | ||
Dear kalos: Does the logic you state also apply to your premise and conclusion. From my view point this is how it works: I did not start with the premise that one could fall away. I started by reading scripture. These readings lead to the conclusion that one can fall away. We then found that no scripture passage contradicts this premise at any time. If you wish, post a passage that you think says most strongly that one cannot fall away and I'll try toreturn a response as to exactly what I think the passage means. Sincerely Emmy and Henry |
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39 | desperate for help | 1 Tim 5:8 | Emmy | 118650 | ||
Hi justme: You need to read a little more carefully before posting these things on the forum. Emmy and I feel that we have one of the greatest blessing there is. We have been happily married for more than 35 years. We enjoy each other's company, and both live in the Lord. This means we not only love the Lord, but also each other. The Lord hates divorse, and it has no part in our thoughts. We still both marvel after all this time how good a gift God provided each of us with. There will never be too much time for us to spend together, even if that is foever. You are thinking of someone else or some other Emmy perhaps that faces a big tradjedy of not being able to remarry. My Emmy remains the sweetest person I know. She is a delight to me and a wonder from one day to the next. Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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40 | CAN I LOSE MY SALVATION? | Heb 2:3 | Emmy | 117361 | ||
Hi: Congratulations on looking at this the way one should. Letting the scriptures speak and influence, rather than scolars and other ideas on the subject. You are likely to be much more vigilant if you have this point right. Sincerely Henry and Emmy |
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