Results 121 - 140 of 270
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: djconklin Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
121 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 24947 | ||
Clarification: on the ordination of women all I have is a bibliography; I never wrote anything up. | ||||||
122 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 24949 | ||
I saw Shepard's suppositions. I prefer concrete facts which the historians I mentioned stated. Shepard's thesis is inexplicable in the face of the facts that we do have. See also Dr. Bacchiocchi's dissertation that earned him a doctorate (summa cum laude) at the Pontifical Gregorian University and a gold medal from Pope Paul VI. You can read some of the chapters here: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/ |
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123 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25070 | ||
Shepard's reasoning was supposition; not pure Scripture. Bacchiocchi was awarded with a gold medal because he was summa cum laude--even they could recognize the effort that was put out forth even if they disagreed with what he find out. Since we have people from the past telling us that most Christians in their day (i.e., they wrote a contemporary account; not like the people of today who are attempting to study the past without being able to go back in time: "From all indications (admittedly not many) Sunday became the day of choice for early (Apostolic era Christian) to worship God.") were keeping the Sabbath and that Rome and Alexandria were not then why should we say otherwise? "I was always taught words in black and white are binding ..." This assumes that you know the Greek and Hebrew words that were written. Most people can only read English translations which leaves them wide open to the biases of the translators (whether they were conscious of them or not). For example, Paul, in Col. 2:16, under the guidance of the HS, wrote "en brosei kai en posei". In English that means "in eating and in drinking". In Col. 2:16 Paul uses an OT "formula" for describing the ceremonial days of worship (the various feasts, new moons, and ceremonial sabbaths that are days of fasting). But, too many anti-sabbatarians let their bias get in the way and assume instead that Paul was talking about the seventh-day Sabbath in the latter item. By studying the original languages you can know that he isn't. |
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124 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25071 | ||
"...let all the “intellectuals” (giggle) in Rome ..." Paul was an intellectual and died in Rome. |
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125 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25086 | ||
"Now your saying all the translators that worked on the KJV, NJKV, NASB, NIV, RSV, and NLT and thousands of others are either idiots or in cahoots to bring forth a mistranslation of this passage." I said no such thing about anyone. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." ---- "Your also saying the majority of commentators many of which also held degrees in Greek are either also mistaken or also in cahoots to insure this lie was perpetuated." Actually I show that there are a number of scholars in the field who do have it correctly. Most of the sources I refer to quite obviously didn't do enough research into the issue (they, like all of us, assumed that they knew what the verse was talking about)--in a different field one said "Do you really think think that for what they are paying me that I'm going to read more than one book on the subject?" ---- "Further more your saying only Sabbatarians have discovered the true meaning of this passage and any that contradict it are wrong. (sounds a little cultic)." Whether those who studied this and found out what it says are sabbatarians or not I don't know; I didn't ask, I just went by the facts. Anyone who doesn't go by the facts will most likely be wrong--after all, what are the odds of finding the right answer when one doesn't look at the facts in the first place? ---- "Paul and the other Apostles recognized Sunday as the Lord’s day and therefore the day upon which to worship Him." The problem is that there is no evidence to support that claim. --- "I know God’s word is swift and divides marrow from bone, therefore more than capable of saying what it means and meaning what it says." You have got that right. So let's look at a couple of words that Paul wrote here in Col. 2:16: "brosei" means "eating" not what you eat but the act. "posei" means "drinking" not what you eat but the act of drinking. "kai" usually means "and" not "or" a fact that the RSV, the NRSV, the NAB, the Amplified Bible, Authentic New Testament, Cassirer New Testament, Holy Bible in Modern English, Jewish New Testament, New Evangelical Translation, Noli New Testament, Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Williams New Testament translations have correctly. |
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126 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25087 | ||
No, I don't. I'm not a mind-reader. All I had to do was show an exception to the rule--and a notable one at that! | ||||||
127 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25106 | ||
"... implication was the translators were unaware of their mistake (idiots) ..." The Bible says that if we call someone a fool that we are in danger of hell fire. So, I don't do that. What I did say in my study is (this is the long version) that I don't know of too many people who had (or would) spend two years looking at all of the available literature on two verses. --- "The implication that many commentaries are written purely for monetary gain ..." I wouldn't have made that assumption. --- "... I have always found an argument that depends on the denigration of others to be distasteful, often lacking in substance and therefore lacking in credence." And yet you did. ---- "Lastly you seem to in enjoy falling all over the words “brosei” and “posei”." Nope, just paying attention to two of the words in the text; I then use them as indicators of what the text is talking about vs. what is commonly said about the text. --- "... 2 “what” they were eating was to some a problem and Paul said don’t sweat it. I think we both agree it is the latter and not the former." Try again; I take it you haven't actually read my study. 3rd option (paying attention to ther historical and cultural context as to why Paulwrote in the first place): ascetics were complaining and judging the believers for their feasting _on_ (paying attention to the Greek behind "in regards to") the feast days that are then mentioned. --- "... he was teaching we were no longer under the dietary and ritual laws." The major problem here (recognized by some scholars): there are no drink laws! Here's some of the the relevant sources (note the date on number 9): 8. Bowman, Jr., Robert M. " Samuele Bacchiocchi on Paul and the Sabbath: A Critique of Samuele Bacchiocchi's Treatment of Colossians 2:16 in His Book From Sabbath to Sunday (Pontifical Gregorian University Press, 1977) ," (CRI Statement DB020): page 3. 9. Olshausen, Hermann Biblical Commentary on St. Paul's Epistles to the Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and Thessalonians. (T. and T. Clark, 1851): page 360. 10. See the practices of the Nazarites and Essenes to which several commentators appeal; for instance, Gill, John (1697-1771) Exposition of the Bible and Bruce, F. F. The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians. (Eerdmans, 1984): page 114, and Scott, [ibid., page 51]: he notes that the Nazirites and Rechabites were forbidden to drink wine but that this was also "a special vow and entailed a discipline over and above the Law." 11. O'Brien, Peter "Colossians," Word Biblical Commentary. Vol. 44 (Word Books, 1982): page 138. This fact is also noted by Bruce [ibid., page 114]. 12. Ash [ibid., page 186]; also noted by Vincent, Marvin R. Word Studies in New Testament. Vol. 3 (Charles Scribner's, 1924): page 493. Available online at godrules.net/library/vincent/vincentcol2.htm. |
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128 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25109 | ||
"It seems like every time I hear someone discussing this verse, invariably they leave off the rest of that statement of Paul's (Col.2:16 and 17)." If you had read my study you would have noted that I dealt with both verses. Right now we are dealing with vs. 16 because some seem to feel that translators can do no wrong. --- "Verse 17 explains WHY he said people shouldn't judge others concerning how and when they worship the Lord. "... which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." NKJ" Nope, coomonly assumed but wrong. Grammatically speaking what Paul is saying that instead of letting outsiders judge you on these things let "the body of Christ" (i.e., the church) decide the matter. --- "Paul knew that true believers no longer needed to look to the shadow..." If he believed that then why did he say that these shadows "are" (present tense)? That'sone of the clues that the common understanding is wrong. --- "And according to my concordance the Greek word for "or" is "e", and here is what it says:" Assuming you are referring to "en brosei kai en posiei" where's the eta? Also it doesn't make sense with an eta in it unless one has allowed the teachings of men to guide you into understanding the verse the way they want it to be understood. |
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129 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25110 | ||
Before you try to make snide remarks about others you try to be what you claim to be. You are a Christian aren't you? | ||||||
130 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25111 | ||
The last I checked the Christian world believed that the Bible writers were inspired; I have never actually heard anyone argue that this applies to the translators as well. A search of the web would reveal quite a few web pages (not counting the extreme one's) which show flaws in various translations. Personnally, I look at translations like computer code: they all have bugs in them. That of course, does not mean that we have to junk any and all translations. We just have to demand higher qaulity workmanship from the translators. I didn note on Col. 2:16 that a number of transl;ations: the RSV, the NRSV, the NAB, the Amplified Bible, Authentic New Testament, Cassirer New Testament, Holy Bible in Modern English, Jewish New Testament, New Evangelical Translation, Noli New Testament, Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Williams New Testament did have the "and" in "eating and in drinking" correctly. |
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131 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25120 | ||
Well, I can try. The basic claim was that the work of historians was mere quesswork subject to revision. I showed however that the work of Sozomen and Socrates was a contemorary report. They said that except for Rome and Alexandria the majority of Christians kept the Sabbath and not Sunday. Thus the speculation/claim: "From all indications (admittedly not many) Sunday became the day of choice for early (Apostolic era Christian) to worship God." does not wash with the known facts. |
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132 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25121 | ||
Where was Justin writing from? How does his quote square with historians long after the event? See the church historian (not the philosopher) Socrates Scholasticus (A.D. 305-438): "Such is the difference in the churches on the subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this." Ecclesiastical History. Book 5, chapter 22. @ http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/TOC.htm and Salaminius Hermias Sozomen (died probably in 447 or 448): "Assemblies are not held in all churches on the same time or manner. The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, chapter 19 @ http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/TOC.htm |
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133 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25124 | ||
I especially appreciated the fact that you went back to the Hebrew to draw out it's meaning. BTW, it was vs 3 not vs. 4. A "holy convocation" by "definition" would mean that the childern of Israel gathered together on the Sabbath to worship God. It is said (I'm not all that sure of its validity) that the rabbinical rule ab't the sabbath day's journey came from the size of the encampment and the distance from the farthest away to the tabernacle (i.e., the distance allowed didn't then allow frivolous travel to merely chit-chat with each other). |
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134 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25138 | ||
"I have been reading some of your posts. If I understand your argument correctly, you seem to be saying that Sunday worship only began about 400 a.d. in Rome and Alexandria." Greetings Tim! Actually, what the contemporaries of the timeframe you mention say is that Sunday worship did occur at Rome and Alexandria but that elsewhere they continued to worship on the Sabbath (Socrates writing earlier than Sozomen mentions only the Sabbath, while the latter mentions both days). While we can find some authors expressing positive attitudes about Sunday that is a long way from saying that whole churches woprshipped on Sunday. Then, of course, we also need ot consider where they wrote from. If they wrote from Rome or Alexandria then that in no way conflicts with what either Sozomen or Socrates wrote. I do agree with you that the historical evidence is "that the attitude toward the Saturday sabbath ranged from tolerance to rejection." |
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135 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25181 | ||
"Now are you going to try to shame me ..." I never do such a thing; why are you so guick and eager to impute motives? Do you have a license? --- "... by saying you were merely implying that thousands of translators had made the same mistake over a period of 500 years," 1) Tremendous advancements have been made in our knowledge about Biblical times in the last 40-50 years. So, to consider translations older than that as somehow above and beyond reproach is very misguided. 2) "Thousands"? 3) Look at the lexicons and compare them with the various translations. You will find that all translations are flawed in one way or another. Partly this is because translating isn't as straightforward as some (usually those who have never done it) might believe. Secondly, it is very hard to put aside one's preconceptions ab't what a text says. Thirdly, there is the "herd instinct" factor--not too many people are willing to break away from the pack. Fourthly, as my study shows some translators apparently didn't do their homework/research. --- "had intentionally mis-interrupted this for some devious reason." There you go with the imputing motives kick again. |
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136 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25186 | ||
What "en"? Do you mean "eta" (or)? The mss used as the base for the KJV (not a strict translation but more of an updating of previous English translations) were few in number and not representative of all that is out there today. We now know with a fair degree of certainty that Paul used the word "kai" which means "and". BTW, Col. 2:16-17 was written in Greek not Hebrew. I use a wide variety of translations and I do not rely on any specific one. I use BibleWorks 4.0 (5.0 just came out; check it out, it is very powerful and has the Greek and the Hebrew so you can call up a verse and scroll over either the Greek or Hebrew word and see what each word means.) Daniel wrote in Hebrew; Paul wrote in Greek. Two totally different languages, letters, words and grammatical rules. You are correct in your quess that some of the festivals have not yet been fulfilled. It has been noted that the spring festivals were predictive of Christ's first coming and that the fall are about His second coming. As I noted in my study there are a number of people who have written about the festivals. My study was not on that aspect per se. It was a grammatical and linguistic analysis of the text. |
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137 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25187 | ||
I was working too. It isn't like that was the only thing I did. Mind you it takes interlibrary loan two weeks to get new material to me. My studies on the date of the book of Daniel (it was not written in 164 B.C.) and the meaning of the word 'almah in Isa. 7:14 ("virgin") didn't take me quite so long. When I started this study I had no idea what it was all about and in fact, if you read the study carefully you'll see that I _disagree_ with the SDA commentary, Dr's. Bacchiocchi, Paulien and Richardson (I studied under the first two while I was in the seminary). Not bad eh? |
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138 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25188 | ||
Perhaps; they do say that us males get combative on the web. | ||||||
139 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25246 | ||
I did correct your obvious misunderstanding and imputing false motives when it wasn't necessary, neither of which is linguistic. --- "Thank you for the interesting thoughts on why you believe we should worship on the seventh day Sabbath." I didn't say any such thing; I was just correcting a common misunderstanding about translating in general and Col. 2:16 in particular. |
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140 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25247 | ||
If I had to guess I suspect that the rabbinical rule was made during the intertestamental period, probably after the time of the Maccabees. | ||||||
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