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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: chesed Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | to the forum... | Not Specified | chesed | 128718 | ||
Hello, forum: I would just like to say that I really appreciate your respectful conversation and friendship. This is a rare thing these days. I know I have mostly been involved in one specific topic, but don't let that determine your impression of me. I really am a Christian- I promise. :) chesed |
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2 | want to approach the book the right way | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128342 | ||
Hello. :) Don't forget to study the historical setting as well- that is important. Many interpretive mistakes in the Prophets come from neglect or ignorance when it comes to the historical setting. Blessings in your study. chesed |
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3 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128546 | ||
On that note, how would you say that those who knew nothing of Jesus were saved? What I mean is this: certainly those in the OT did not have the atvantage of hindsight that we enjoy today. They more than likely paid little or no attention to a prophesy about some future messiah. And plus, the only people that had this luxury of potential belief in Jesus (if in fact they had some messianic prophesy to go by) were the Israelite community. This is a very limited amount of people who would have had any type of chance to believe in a future Messiah figure. I do not understand how the majority, if any, of the OT people could have had a saving faith in Jesus. My point is, I think that faith in Jesus was not necessary. I believe that they simply had to acknowledge that Yahweh was God, and they had to have a relationship (of faith and obedience) with Him. This was enough for God, and His grace covered them. Any thoughts? |
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4 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128588 | ||
EdB, Nice to meet you... I appreciate your perspective, but I just don't see how they would have anticipated a Messiah. It is clear that in the inter-testamental period that those thoughts arose and that they began to look for such a person, but in the majority of Israel's history, I don't think you can validate a claim such as the one you are making. Even so, like I said, if you could validate such a claim, that would only account for those in the Israelite community who did have access to God's revelation, and this would not include those who were outside of their community. A lot of the things that we consider "messianic prophesy" in the OT are not. The first legitimate one that I can think of would be Isa. 53...and who really understood what that was talking about until Jesus fulfilled it? with love, chesed |
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5 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128595 | ||
Hello EdB :) What I mean by those outside of the Israelite community are the Gentiles who lived in other areas, such as Melchizedek, Balaam, etc. And as far as the NT scriptures you cited, I am in agreement. Those people were looking for a Messianic figure...a theology which was developed in the Inter-Testamental period. I am not saying that there are zero prophesies about Jesus in the OT. I am saying that there are very few, and the ones that we can find were probably irrelevant to those people at that time. Remember, I am talking about the ancient Israel in the OT, not 1st Century Israel. Your point is perfectly valid for those during and after the time of Jesus. * Yes, everyone is saved through Jesus. He is the only way. John was saying that Jesus is the way that people receive grace...he does not ever say that their perfect knowledge or understanding of Jesus saved them. |
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6 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128599 | ||
EdB, I respectfully disagree with you here. Could you please give an example of How Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc. could have possibly had a saving faith in Jesus Christ? As for the pagan Gentiles, I believe that this concept of paganism was not as foreign to God's chosen people as you may like to think. Israel struggled with paganism and polytheism all the way up until Babylonian captivity. with love, chesed |
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7 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128626 | ||
Hello BradK..nice to meet you :) in answer to your questions, I simply disagree. I may have got off on the wrong foot here in this forum- I didn't intend for this. Anyway, here are my thoughts: You have to remember that most of the OT Christology that we seem to have come up with is not only read in to the OT, but is contrary to the OT message. The whole time, Yahweh is trying to show Israel that there is only one God, not two or three (Deut. 6:1 etc). Why would he be telling them two opposite messages: "I am the only real God, but there is also another God, who, by the way, is the same person as me, but not exactly. Oh yeah- there is one more- the Holy Spirit..but we will get to him in a few hundred years." That just wouldn't work for Israel. The OT is Monotheistic. As far as Gen 3:15 goes, I can't see any way that is talking about Jesus. Just because it was in "The Passion" doesn't make it true. There is not even one place in the NT where a writer makes a connection between that verse and Jesus Christ. Like I said, we read those things back into the OT...but they are not really there. Hengstenberg was simply reacting to those who were against the idea of prophesy and miracles, etc. I think he tried a bit too hard to make his point. Don't get me wrong, I believe in prophesy and miracles...but I don't like to make up extra Messianic prophesies when they are not required. chesed |
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8 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128628 | ||
EdB, Well I sure do understand and appreciate where you are coming from now...because of your interpretation of Lk.16 and Eph.4 and 1 Pet.3 you must conclude that the OT people at some point had to learn and believe that Jesus died for them in order to make it into heaven. Where I am coming from is this: God offered Israel grace and truth in the OT. They were saved and forgiven just as we are today, IN LIGHT OF Jesus' death. Yes, Jesus is the REASON they were forgiven. (forgive me, I don't see any itallic options, so I will capitalize). However, they did not understand this fully. I have a difficult time believing that they OT people simply lived in misery and guilt their whole lives, always feeling that they were unrighteous and unforgiven because the messiah had not yet come to give them forgiveness. This is simply not true, as you know. chesed |
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9 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128629 | ||
Hi BK, John 8:56, IMO, is about Abrham rejoicing at the birth of his son, in whom "all nations would be blessed." Eventually, as you know, Jesus would come from Isaac, thus, he was rejoicing in Jesus through Isaac. I will give you the common interpretation of God revealing his plan to Abraham in visions- that is a possibility, but very unlikely. A third interpretation, if you don't agree with mine, is that Abraham upon death gained the heavenly perspective of God's plan, and from paradise saw everything and rejoiced. Heb.11:13 is in reference to receiving God's Promised Land. Read the next 3 verses that follow. Again, you are reading Jesus Christ into the OT. chesed |
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10 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128632 | ||
Pardon me, is this not a discussion forum? Does everyone have to agree? Are there people here who are the ultimate authority, or are we all equal? I am not trying to be rude here, but this is the impression I have received. Like I have said before, I just don't agree with a trinitarian view of the OT. I DO BELIEVE in the trinity because I have read about it in the NT. You will not find it the OT unless you bend the scriptures, which I am very much against. There was a trinity, yes, but God wasn't pressing the revelation of it to people who already were struggling with polytheism. Have you ever tried to exlain the trinity to someone from Africa? They simply say that the trinity are three gods- simple as that. The same reaction would have been given by Israel. |
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11 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128636 | ||
Thanks, Steve..I know all of those. I used to believe the very things you are presenting. Is it wrong for me to disagree with you? You know very well that none of those OT 'messianic prophesies' said anything about Jesus in their original context. This is simply a typological interpretation given by the gospel writers. There is nothing wrong with that...but it is not what the OT verses were talking about. It was not hard for Jesus to begin with Moses and all the prophets and apply those scriptures to himself. He was the 'prophet like Moses,' the Suffering Servant, etc. Plus, Jesus was a 1st century Jew- that was a common hermenuetical method. What I am saying is that in my actual study of Isa.7-9, Hosea 11, Micah 5, etc in context, they say nothing about Jesus Christ. Isa 53 I give you. Amen to that! chesed |
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12 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128639 | ||
Yes, that is it. :) That is exactly it. |
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13 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128643 | ||
Hank, (kindly and respectfully) I appreciate your comments. I apologize- I thought this forum was open to other opinions. So all of you believe basically the same thing? That is just fine with me..I can keep searching for another place..unless of course you wouldn't mind me staying. I really am looking for a friendly place to fellowship and discuss. I found the friendly part here, but I guess there is less discussion than I am looking for. I firmly believe that part of being 'biblical' is knowing the historical and cultural context of the bible we are studying. This is the information I was attempting to present, but I could not seem to get through the barier of those who are not wishing to hear an alternate view. I apologize for all of this- I did not mean to upset this forum. I would love to stick around if you will have me... chesed |
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14 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128646 | ||
No...I am certainly not Catholic. I am non-denominational. I do not subscribe to any one protestant or Catholic Doctrine. My Doctrine is based on decades of personal study. |
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15 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128649 | ||
Hey Steve...I am not sure if you would prefer I answer here or by email, so I will just ask before I post. | ||||||
16 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128650 | ||
I might go along with that if you give me your definition... | ||||||
17 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128657 | ||
ok ... I think that I would agree with that. He didn't tell us everything in Gen.1, you know? | ||||||
18 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128690 | ||
Again, I don't know if I can go along with that fully. Not all sins were covered by sacrifice. Some were 'un-pardonable' without God simply telling them that they are forgiven. I refer you to Ps.51. Which sacrifices did David offer when he murdered, commited adultery, lied, stole, etc? The fact is, there were no sacrifices for those sins. He deliberately acted against God. If he could have offered a sacrifice, he would have...but no sacrifice was created for those circumstances. He simply went to God's throne of grace and asked for mercy. Again, why were they concerned about a future messiah? What was it that they needed from him? WE know that because of Jesus, all people are forgiven. They did not. I still am not seeing any scriptural references to support this idea that they put their faith in Jesus the Christ. Chesed |
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19 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128691 | ||
Hi Steve, My statement about Jesus and others being first Century Jews ties in with #1 and #2 of your previous post. As you know, the hermeneutical methods used by the Jews of the first Century were four-fold: Literal, midrashic, pesher, and allegorical. For the most part, when dealing with OT prophesy, Jesus, his followers, and the NT writers often subscribed to the pesher method, which was very much focussed on contemporary application, often without ceoncern for the original OT context. There is nothing wrong with this approach in and of itself- it was just a common method...but the fact is that it did not take into account the OT context; it simply made a present-day application. #1) Mt.21 comes from Zechariah 9. In the context of Zechariah 9, we do have a prophesy, but it is not about Jesus. Yes, Jesus 'fulfilled' this verse by doing the same thing, but in the original context this was referring to someone else (most scholars would say Simon Maccabbees). #2) Mt.2:3-6 comes from Micah 5, which refers to the faithful remnant in Babylonian captivity who would 'give birth to' a new King of peace when they returned. (we see in Zechariah that this was to be Zerubabel...but others interpret this to be Joshua). And to answer your last question in a word, no. Most prophesies do not include the name of the person being referred to. I hope this clears up what I am trying to say. chesed |
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20 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128695 | ||
Hi Tim, Like I said, Jesus did fulfill Zech 9, but that is not who God was talking about in Zech.9. Jesus fulfilled (gave full and ulitimate meaning) to the whole OT...that is not what I am talking about. I am simply explaining the original intent of the OT passage. Matthew 2 and Hosea 11 might illuminate my point more clearly. In Hos.11, God clearly was not talking about Jesus. He was talking about the literal community of Israel, whom He brought up out of Egypt. Jesus was also called out of Egypt, so he in effect fulfills this, but God was not talking about Jesus in Hos.11- He was talking about the Hebrew nation whom He saved from Egyptian bondage. In reference to Micah 5, I think that I stated somewhere else that these Messianic hopes of a Priest and King (and Prophet and Great Teacher) were developed in the Inter-Testamental period. Take a look at CD (the Damascus Document) xii.23; CD xix.10-11; CD xx.1ff; 1QS ix.10-11, and also the Testament of the 12 Patriarchs. Zech.4:14, Haggai 2:20ff were seed passages for the messiah theology of the 1st century, which were developed in the Inter-Tesamental period as shown above. This is why we have all of these expected figures in the gospels which were never spoken of in the OT. (cf.Jn.1:19-22) Joel 2:28ff was the seed passage for the prophet theology of the 1st Century, and was developed in the IT period as well. (cf.Jn.4:25) [footnote: I do not consider the IT works to be inspired, but they did have a large influence on the 1st Century view of the Messiah.] chesed |
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