Results 121 - 140 of 150
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: atdcross Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
121 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 163086 | ||
Hi Mark, I am not against the concept of divine discipline; it is Biblical. Like a parent, I just think it is something God does not have on his mind to do unless it is necessary and it is not the ideal way he wants to encourage obedience. In addition, there are some things that cannot, at least in my mind, be construed as discipline, e.g. being sick or raped. The former, if one is to intepret it as from God, is rather divine judgment; the latter is just plain evil, an inspired act from evil powers. |
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122 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 163065 | ||
You said, “I dont see anything that says we are victims.” In general, because of our First Parents’ disobedience, we are all victims of their sins, having become sinners, under the sentence of death, and ruled by demonic powers (Romans 5:12). In particular, we are all victims of one another. One is the victim of murder and another of abusive parents; mild or severe, we are all victims of someone’s negative or sinful behavior. That is not to deny we are responsible for our conduct, responses, failures, our own victimization of others; nor does it relieve us of guilt. |
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123 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 163064 | ||
I think I already answered why I disagree with the above interpretation; cf. #162818. It seems you are allowing the verse to interpret itself without any consideration as to the context, which I still contend is persecution, cf. vs.12ff. Adam Clarke seems to express what I mean better than I can when he says, “A man suffers according to the will of God who suffers for righteousness' sake…” To suffer…period…is not the will of God. However, to maintain our witness to the gospel despite the persecution, is suffering according to the will of God. This is not man’s way of willing our suffering but it is God’s way. You said, that I “take the word 'suffer' from it's context and make it refer to 'all suffering'. The text does not say that 'all suffering' is a result of God's will...” If I gave you that impression, in relation to the text in question, I stand corrected. This verse has persecution in view and not all types of suffering. However, I still maintain on the basis of other Bible verses, that it is not God’s will that believer’s suffer any form of suffering; at least, not for sufferings sake. I can go further to say that it is not God’s intention that anyone suffer but, things being as they are, the infliction or allowing of suffering may be necessary. 1 Peter 4:19 – I think the suffering involved here has particular reference to any form of suffering endured because of one’s obedience to God. It discounts any suffering for doing what is wrong as suffering that is according to God’s will; and it does not have any reference at all to such sufferings as, for example, being sick or raped. Yet, Phil. 1:29 – With the privilege of believing in Christ and receiving all the benefits that accrue from grace, it is also a privilege to suffer for Christ – equivalent to suffering for righteousness sake. It is not to suffer itself that is “the gift”, but “to suffer for him” that is the gift. Anyone can suffer. It is what one suffers for that gives it value or meaning. |
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124 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 163056 | ||
12:1 – Notice, those “cloud of witnesses” included those that were persecuted. Therefore, the writer of Hebrews urges them to everything (including personal sin) that would hinder them from persevering (cf. 10:19-22). Again, they are exhorted to perseverance in view of the examples of the faith of those in chapter 11 who held onto the promises of God despite persecution. Heb 12:2 – I agree, Jesus death was the perfect and ultimate example of one who endured all, but what is specifically mentioned is persecution, especially when chapter 11 is included. Heb 12:3 – It seems to me this verse continues the thought within the context of persecution. Heb 12:4 – The only difference at present being was that their “struggle” was not bloody (cf. 10:32-34). It does not seem to me that personal sin is the emphasis here, although it need not be ruled out as part of the thought. Heb 12:5 – – Considering this verse comes right after dealing with examples of those who experienced persecution for their faith (i.e. chapter 11), I’m not entirely convinced. The apostle may be using the Hebrew text in proverbs but with a slight variation on the theme (from discipline to persecution) or an integration of two themes (persecution and discipline). I would tend to go for the former idea. The question I would ask, is the word “and” included in the Greek (not that I know Greek)? In any case, “and” may not necessarily mean “a new thought” but as “an addition” to the thought already being conveyed. I do not think that the thought is necessarily new; it is merely the continuation on a theme (persecution) but from a different perspective. Heb 12:6-7 – No argument that personal sin must be resisted but, the writer seems to refer specifically to the danger of apostasy (10:26,38), again, within the context of persecution. Although, I have no problem agreeing that personal sin cannot be ruled out, however, the focus is within the context of persecution. The writers whole emphasis seems to be to warn them against outsides forces that are contrary to the teachings they have been given and to encourage them to “hold on” to the “the hope” they have been given in the message of the gospel (3:6); to do that they must “everything that hinders [although not necessarily sin] and the sin [in general, not necessarily of specific sin] that so easily entangles them.” |
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125 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162846 | ||
Hi Mark “Lightning”. These responses are made too quick for me! I can agree with what your differentiation between "persecution” and “discipline." Sometimes, they may intersect. The book, "the Heavenly Man," is a good example of that intersection. I thought I gave a response regarding Hebrews 12 that was pertinent but I can’t find it; must have done it in another galaxy. Anyway…the context of Hebrews 12 seems to be, in particular, persecution; and with that in mind, the discipline has to do with the arrangement of the Christian life in conformity to Jesus’ response to the “struggle against sin” (v.3). The believers are called to “endure” the persecution and, in this respect are they commanded to “endure hardship as discipline”; that is, to use the persecution as a means of conforming oneself into the character and conduct of Jesus Christ. V.10 is giving us an analogy of this discipline but if we take it too far, it could seem like it is discipline for wrongdoing, which I do not think is the case here. It is discipline imposed because the believer’s trust God and are obedient to him. |
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126 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162842 | ||
Hi, Mark. Thank you for the compliments. I hope I don’t disappoint you as the discussion goes on. Not knowing Greek, I apologize if I missed something, but it seems you added “an original work” to the definition. I do not see where any of the definitions you display mention or imply it. Since this seems to be the emphasis in your objection, please advise. Otherwise, I don’t see how these definitions, as you have quoted them, argue against my view. |
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127 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162839 | ||
I missed responding to Heb 12:6 - A masochistic Christian may find it pleasurable. I do not. However, it must be viewed within it’s context, which is the “struggle against sin” (v.4) and sin involving the sins of others, persecution (v.3). Such suffering is to be taken as a given (John 16:33; 1 Pet 4:12). As such, I think, what is dealt with here is specifically persecution, which, as I have stated, is a given. Also, see the previous response I made on this verse (somewhere on this thread). |
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128 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162837 | ||
At Doc’s request: 1. Where the comment was made, “They've done their homework, now do yours. Scripture, son, dig into the Scripture!” The assumption made, it seems, is that I am negligent in studying the Bible and unwilling to ascertain it’s truths. Granted I may not intellectually grasp the Bible or spend the time studying as does Edwards and company but that does not necessarily mean I am lacking commitment to the Word or that I am wrong concerning what I presently understand to be Biblical truth. 2. It was also advised that I “Care enough for the truth to be willing to be wrong,” giving the impression that it is suggested I am proud, that is, not teachable. Now I understand, given the context, that I am only being encouraged to defend the truth. However, this board, at least to me, is a fellowship of believers. As you said, “Our contention is not about being right or wrong.” For me, it is fellowship; discussing biblical views with others and, in light of another’s insights, hammering out what we feel God is speaking to us. If change is required, I agree, it should be made. However, to change one's view held in good conscience according to how he understands the Bible, should not be expected. As such, it is not a matter of whether the views I hold should be true for everyone. I cannot understand how or why one would jump into a discussion of pluralism. Disagreements here have nothing to do with pluralism and everything to do with gaining better a understanding of God through fellowship. That is not to say that there are not views essential and unique to the Christian faith, which must be adhered to and upheld, e.g. the incarnation, the Cross, the trinity. But there are some views that I believe, believed by all Christians in its essentials but viewed differently in a theological and practical framework, e.g. the doctrine of divine omnipotence. Christians believe that God is omnipotent but they disagree on what omnipotence entails. So I disagree with Edwards. What is the big deal? The impression made is that if I disagree with Edwards then I must be a heretic or, at the least, entertain heretical thoughts. Then it is further thought that my salvation is in jeopardy or (for those who adhere to “eternal security”) I must not be a “genuine” believer. It seems, rather than just discuss the issue, there is an attempt to “discern” the character or kind of person behind the statements being made, whether they are saved or not, honest or not, deceived or not studious or not. I would surmise that the Internet is not the place to attempt making such evaluations. Ten times out of ten so evaluations are wrong. I leave this as something to think about, not respond to. As such, it is respectfully submited that any further discussion on this issue is unnecessary. However, if someone feels strongly that this need to be addressed further, you may send it to my personal email me account. |
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129 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162828 | ||
Thank you for clearing that up for me, Mark. I agree with that. However, not all may agree with you. Some may assert that God causes all suffering. What I do not agree with is that it is G od's will/intention or that God causes all suffering and, specifically, that it is God's will or God causes His children to suffer as, for example, in the case of sickness and even persecution. I appreciate the clarification and apologize for any misunderstanding on my part. |
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130 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162826 | ||
I have no argument with Edwards and the rest, therefore, I do not see where there is any responsibility on my part to show "where they erred in their interpretation of Scripture." My responsibility is to know Christ and not to pick fights with his siblings. In any case, with all due respect, I get the feeling assumptions are being made or, at least, implied about me and my relationship with God, which the Bible does not seem to approve. |
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131 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162825 | ||
I was not "inspired" in the sense of 2 Pet 2:21, which is why I qualified my statement with "think" and "at present". I was merely suggesting that disagreeing with "orthodox confessions and theologians" is not equivalent to rebeling against the Bible. The latter incurs divine judgment. The former does not although it may unintentionally offend some people. In any case, I fail to see the relevancy of Spurgeon's comments to the discussion. |
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132 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162821 | ||
Eph 1:11 - Note (from the NIV), it reads not God “causes everything” but God “works out everything.” As such, yes, suffering is included in “everything” that God “works out.” | ||||||
133 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162820 | ||
Mark, please see my response to Tim. That God allows suffering, I can agree. I cannot agree that God causes suffering, at least, not to believers. That is not to say suffering is not a result of God's actions or that believers never suffer. I agree, “Jesus was made complete through suffering,” however, that is not necessarily the case for believers. They can choose to rebel. Regarding your analogy with the tabletop: (1) God would rather we learn by just obeying his word. (2) However, there is no disagreement that our state as fallen may require “sanding”. (3) Again, Jesus’ suffering can only be taken so far as an example. It was God’s specific purpose for him to be a sacrifice for sin and, therefore, suffer and die (John 6:38; Heb 10:7-10). I have already discussed Isa 53:10. Again, I am not denying a “theology of suffering” or that believers never experience it. I do deny that suffering itself is God’s will and intention for his people. Regarding the man “imprisoned for 70 days”, if, as it is here asserted that suffering itself is God’s will, then he would now be out of God will. Ten Boom is no lightweight! But still, her experience does not mean that it was God who wanted and intended for her to suffer. Under the circumstances, if God wanted her to be a witness in those terrible times (and I believe he did), then she would have to go through the suffering. But I think God placed her there, not to suffer per se, but to be a witness; in spite of suffering she needed to go through it in order to fulfill her commission by God. A possible reason why God choose suffering – to break us – was because we are already broken? He wants to break even more what is already broken (cf. Isa 42:3)? |
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134 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162818 | ||
Hi Brother Tim, I agree that is what Peter wrote, however, that suffering itself is God’s will was not what, I believe, Peter meant by it; at least, not when the context is taken into consideration. None of the verses hint that God is the cause of their suffering or that he purposely intended it. Suffering, as Peter says, is the inevitable outcome of the Christian life because of worldly opposition; therefore, they should not be surprised when it occurs as if godliness assured peace and comfort (Gal 4:29; 2 Tim 3:12). Note vss.15-16. If there is to be suffering, he tells them it should be for doing right and not for doing wrong. This is “suffering according to the will of God,” when we suffer because we are doing what is right. To suffer in and of itself is not God’s will. If it were, then even the one who suffers for doing wrong would be “suffering according to the will of God” because he suffers, which would, evidently, make Peter’s exhortation in vs.15 meaningless. If it is God who causes and intends suffering, why pray for the sick to be healed? Don’t we want “God’s will” for the person”? Why counsel a woman who gets beaten everyday by her husband to separate from him? Why have an abusive husband arrested for that matter? When a child is being raped, he/she is “suffering according to God’s will.” Being raped, therefore, was the best thing that can happen to that child, is it not? I am only trying to follow the line of reasoning that would follow your objection. If suffering itself is God’s will, any believer who suffers for whatever reasons, wrong or right, is in God’s will; and any believer not suffering or who never experienced suffering is out of God’s will. |
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135 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162811 | ||
I will admit I may disagree with orthodox confessions and theologians. They were not inspired, which leaves the possibility that their interpretation of Scripture is erred at some points. However, I do not think my view of the Bible at present is basically erred. Let me just make some points: 1. God does limit himself. 2. Suffering being sanctifying is dependent on response. 3. I do not think it can be denied that there is punitive suffering. With respect to my comment concerning not attempting to influence others, unfortunately, it seems more has read into it than is intended. I appreciate your concern, however, I fail to see how the advice given is relative to the discussion. |
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136 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162584 | ||
Hi Doc! Hope you had a good day off. It seems all the verses you cited, for the most part, involve God’s judgment against the ungodly, the sinner. None are suggesting that God is inflicting suffering upon believers, that is, the ones who are faithful to him, the godly. Is there any reference to God inflicting suffering on one who is godly? I did not say all suffering is caused by one’s personal acts of sin, although I will say, in general, that suffering is always associated with sin. If there were no sin, there would be no suffering. We are all victims as well as perpetrators of sin. In Luke, Jesus seems to affirm universal guilt: “unless you repent you will, in the same way, perish.” As such, Jesus was associating sin with suffering in general. As far as John 9, again, Jesus did not answer the question of guilt or innocence but ignored it altogether; nor is he saying that God caused the suffering. Jesus is preoccupied with what God will do in spite of it. Furthermore, God showed his glory, not by inflicting suffering, but by healing. The study of “God Himself” is what has led me to believe as I do. I disagree with the Baptist Confession. I also cannot agree with Edwards that the sovereignty of God, when properly understood, is a stumbling block. I am of the opinion that certain views, Biblically unwarranted, of divine sovereignty are a “stumbling block on which thousands fall and perish.” I can agree with Wright and Piper’s statement at face value; it all depends on what they mean by certain terms used, like “rule,” “govern,” and “sovereign.” As omnipotent as God is, someone wrote something to the effect that God cannot rightly do to men (whom he created) whatever it is in his power to do to them. Please allow me at this point ot make it clear that I am not attempting to influence anyone to my views. I am only sharing them. |
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137 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162580 | ||
Hi Mark, 1 Pet 4:19 – It is “according to the will of God,” not that they suffer but that they go through the suffering in a godly manner (cf. v.12-16). 1 Pet 2 – Again, is it said the suffering itself is commendable or is it how one endures the suffering that is commendable? The example that Jesus left us was not merely that he suffered but that he remained faithful to God despite it (cf. v.22). Heb 2:10 - Jesus was made “perfect through suffering” only because of how he responded to it (cf. v.13). Note, also, he is made perfect “through” suffering and not “because” of it. Heb 5:8 - Jesus did learn obedience by what he suffered. But, yet again, his it was specifically to suffer on our behalf. However, suffering can either draw a person towards or away from God. There is no virtue in suffering itself. There is virtue on how one thinks and acts through suffering. I think it was Augustine who said something to the effect that it is not martyrdom that makes the martyr but the reason for which he is killed. You said, “Remember, not everything Jesus suffered was specifically required for our redemption,” etc. The suffering of Christ is unique. God sent Christ specifically to be a bloody victim in order to redeem man. Everything suffered was required. In this respect, we cannot follow His example. In any case, Jesus’ suffering does not necessarily mean suffering is something God intended for all believers or anyone else. Phil 1:29 - Note that the apostle is speaking within the context of conduct (v.27), struggle (v.30), and believing (v.29a). Conducting ourselves “in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ” through all that opposes faith and the gospel is what, I believe, the apostle is stressing and not suffering per se. There is no argument that suffering for Christ is a privilege, However, how sane would you consider one to be who went looking to suffer yelling, “Here! Here! Kick me! Hit Me! I’m a Christian”? I do not think the persecuted brothers and sisters in China or North Korea do this. Suffering for Christ is a privilege but not merely because a believer suffers but because it is for whom he suffers. Phil. 3:10 – In the context of considering everything as loss (v.7-8) Paul desires to share in Christ’s sufferings (cf. 2:7a). Also, Paul is not stressing a desire to suffer per se but a desire to know Christ by experiencing that power that raised him from the dead, which can only come through our own self-emptying and the godly endurance, even if it be to the point of physical death, such emptying demands. He did not seek or desire suffering; he sought the person and power of Christ to live in him (Gal 2:20) at whatever cost. Is 53:10 - Again, the suffering of Christ is unique and will never be repeated by anyone. However, can it be imagined that the Father was joyful to see His only Son suffer? If the death of his saints grieves God (Ps 116:15 Tanakh), how much more does the death of his only Son? James 1:2 – James is encouraging us to godly endurance through suffering; nowhere does he say God intended them to suffer. He does suggest that God is using the difficulties to test if one’s faith is genuine. Suffering in itself will not produce the qualities James enumerates. It depends on the person trusting God. The “chisel” that forms one’s faith is the same “chisel” that can break another’s. If the work needing to be accomplished can only be done through suffering, it is not because God intended it but because, under the circumstances, God permits it. As I read the Bible, I am of the view that God would rather not use the “chisel” but would rather we simply believe and obey through faith in his goodness. However, if one is really to believe that God’s intention is to teach his children through suffering, it needs asking, what lesson does a child learn by being raped? What would we think of the character of a father who brutally beat their child to a bloody pulp to correct them? There seem to me to be only one lesson learned through suffering and that is it hurts. The Bible says it is divine kindness, not suffering, that leads to repentance (Rom 2:4). I am not denying that suffering, under the present circumstances, has no place. It does when necessary where no other devices of kindness work. But then, that is suffering used in divine judgment (Rom 10:22). |
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138 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162345 | ||
Hi Doc, Wow...that was a quick response! Suffering is unfortunate...a "misfortune" allowed by God. That is not to say it just happened without any reference to cause and effect. Because suffering is not God's intention, it does not mean "it is beyond His ability to assuage." It seems you have misunderstood. Maybe I was not clear. In any case, again, my answer is, not necessarily. |
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139 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162341 | ||
Hi Searcher, See my comment to Doc. The main point I am trying to make is that suffering is not God's intention, although, unfortunately, it is reality. I am not trying to ascertain who suffers or not, who deserves it or not. If I gave that impression, I apologize. But to answer your question, in general, everyone experiences suffering to one degree or another for one reason or another, some more, some less than others, whether they are blameworthy or blameless... unfortunately. |
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140 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162340 | ||
Hello Doc, Not necessarily. The issue of suffering is more complicated than my answer may have, unfortunately, suggested. Let me just say that, in general, it was never God's will that mankind suffers. I do not think it is a Biblical concept to say that God desires or wills this or that sickness upon someone or this or that person to be raped (Jer 29:11 KJV; Ps 91; 103:1-6; 3 Jn 2-4). Suffering, in general, is the result of man's fallenness. Believer's may suffer specifically because they are walking right with God. Hostile forces are against the gospel. It is not because God wills or desires believers to suffer. God desires believers to maintain faithfulness to Christ regardless of the hostility and maybe even moreso because of it. Jesus said we will have tribulation in this world but He does not say it is God's will that such tribulation should come (Jn 7:7; 16:33). There is suffering due to the natural results of sin or divine judgment against sin. With respect to the former, God would still rather we not suffer but the choice is the believer's. It's not like you can jump out the window and change your mind. In the case of divine judgment, although it may be necessary, again, it is something God would rather not do (Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:11). |
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