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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Truthfinder Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
241 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 76087 | ||
(Part 3) To “know” is a state of the mind, and the Greek present must indicate a continuing state. The Hebrew perfect has exactly the same meaning. (According to H.W.F. Gesenius, Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, ed. E. Kautzsch, trasn. A.E. Cowley, 2d Eng. Ed.) And both in Hebrew and in Greek we find the preposition “before,” referring to a time in the past prior to the birth of Jeremiah. From this time to the time when God uttered the words, he know Jeremiah. It is similar with the parallel clause. To “sanctify” is an act leading into a state. Here a Greek perfect is used, indicating even more definitely that a clause beginning with “before” can signify a state with duration into the present. As I already mentioned, Greek has a verbal conjugation called “perfect,” which may be defined as “ a state or condition resulting from a completed action.” (Fanning, Verbal Aspect, p. 103) It is often translated with English perfect, but the two may not match exactly. As a matter of fact, the Greek eimi, being stative, has no perfect form, so John could not have chosen a perfect for eimi, but he did choose the imperfective aspect of Greek present to portray a state lasting from the past and continuing into the present. (Fanning, Verbal Aspect, p. 21 call this the “Present of Past Action Still in Progress). English has no grammaticalized imperfective aspect which may portray an action or state that began before a certain point in the past, and which continues into the present. But it does have a present tense which covers situations including the present moment. The English present tense, however, cannot be extended to include a time before a particular point in the past, so English and Greek present may be mutually exclusive in situations where both past and present are combined. Which is correct, in the light of the following parameters: “grammaticality,” “intelligibility,” “faithful conveyance of the message,” and “addition of elements.” 1) “Before Abraham came into being, I was”. This rendition is grammatically correct, it is intelligible and it does not add any elements that are not found in the text itself. But because the state is confined to the past, before Abraham came into being and Jesus still lived when he expressed his preexistence, the message is distorted. English preterite cannot include a state which is still in effect. 2) “Before Abraham came into being, I am.” This is the least attractive one, for several reasons. It is ungrammatical because English present tense cannot start before a definite point in the past. It is unintelligible and does not convey the message, because an element of mysticicism must be added to defend its place in an English translation. Since there are no mystical connotations in the Greek text, it adds foreign elements. 3) “Before Abraham came into being, I have been.” This is the rendition in the NWT and some other translations, including the early marginal reading offered by the NASB. It is ungrammatical because English perfect cannot be used to portray a state which is anchored to a particular point in the past. It is however, intelligible and therefore it conveys the message. It also does not add any mystical or foreign elements. Truthfinder |
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242 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 76086 | ||
(part 2) Jesus therefore could have used the perfect hayiti, the nominal clause ani hu or the lone pronoun ani. But regardless of what he actually used, two important points should be kept in mind: 1) All three expressions were normal Hebrew without any element of mysticism. 2) None of the three expressions contain any element of tense. So, we must conclude that both the original words of Jesus and Greek rendering made by John did not contain any grammatical element pinpointing time. So, let’s consider the context to find a rendering of “to be” which is consistent with the context of Jesus’ statement. First from the context of the text itself and then the greater context. The time element is: “Before Abraham came into existence.” The Greek word translated “before” is prin, and both the Hebrew New Testament I just referred to have beterem where the Greek text has prin. Both the Hebrew and the Greek words mean “before” and semantically speaking the phrase “before Abraham” must refer to a time when Abraham was not yet born. How long this “time” was cannot be determined from the grammar or the syntax; it may or may not involve an eternal reference. Now, the Greek verb eimi is both stative (A stative describes a state rather an action. The Hebrew haya is a stative and ani hu also represents a state) and is imperfective; a combination which would signify a situation having duration. (According to the book Verbal Aspect in New Testament Greek, p. 137) Fanning says, “the present aspect with STATES denotes the continuing existence of the subject in the condition indicated by the verb. The subject of the verb is “I” that is, Jesus, and it is too modest to say it is “something new” to claim that eimi refers to the continuing existence of Jesus backwards from the birth of Abraham in the distant past. Grammatically speaking it would have been completely new, and it were truthfully shown that the continuing existence of states could be reversed, it would really revolutionize the study of aspects. I don’t know of any examples?? But there are examples of continuing existence in a forward sense, also in clauses with the Greek prin or the Hebrew beterem (before). Interestingly, in the aprocryphal book of Susanna, which late manuscripts of the Septuagint add to the book of Daniel, we find the following Greek parallel to our text in question: “O Lord God, the eternal, the who knows (eidos)(the active participle of oida) all things before (prin) they spring forth; you know (oidas) (perfect indicative with present meaning) that I did not do (epoiesa) (aorist indicative with past meaning) this. The Greek verb ioda is stative and is formally a perfect, but the verb is generally used as a present. The first occurrence of it in the sentence is as an active participle. It is obvious that the knowledge God has about these things, before they spring forth(how the author of Suzzana views it) is not directed backwards nor does it cease at some point before they spring forth. Therefore, Susanna uses the same stative verb when she says, “You know” (at present). What God knew before things took place he also continued to know afterwards, so prin in this case does not exclude “duration up to the present.” In the two Hebrew New Testaments I referred to before the word beterem is used the LXX has prin. In Jer. 1:5 we find this word used twice in a construction quite similar to John 8:58. The LXX in both places has pro tou, a phrase with basically the same meaning as prin. “Before (pro tou) I formed you (plasai) (aorist infinitive; Hebrew has the imperfect). In the belly I know you (epistamai) (present indicative; Hebrew has perfect) and before(pro tou) you came forth (ekselthein) (aorist infinitive; Heb has imperfect.) from the womb I sanctified you (hegaika)(perfect indicative; Hebrew also has imperfect).(continued) |
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243 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 76085 | ||
Hi Tim, I am so sorry you feel the way you do about the NWT but I can understand how you feel because I feel as you do with so many other translations. One of the biggest problems I have is the theology bias the translators brazenly display. I will get into that some day, I’m sure. I have already mentioned Rolf Furuli and his thoughts are elucidated herein by me to defend just this one text you brought up, John 8:58. The NWT says, “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” Many others read, “Before Abraham was born ‘I am.’” Greek ego eimi. Here we have the personal pronoun “I” together with the present of the auxiliary “to be”. It seems to me that other translations translate this in a mystical sense, allowing their theology of the Trinity to affect them. Since originally Jesus spoke either the Hebrew or Aramaic when he uttered this text in question then it was translated into Greek, and now into English, we have three different verbal systems to deal with. Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic don’t have tenses, but have aspects. Greek has two conjugations that only code for aspect, one that codes for the tense, and the other that codes for both aspect and time and yet another for stative conjugation (as opposed to tenses). It’s a misnomer to use tenses for the Greek verbs. Anyway, English has only tenses and no grammaticalized aspects. Most translations, speaking schematically, translate ego eimi in the present tense. Present tense is a time line diagram representing the present moment or the intersection between past time and future time. But think about it, isn’t it rare for actions to coincide exactly with the present moment? So, in English, present may occupy a part of the past as well as of the future but always including the present moment. It can be used for the distant future but hardly including a definite reference point in the distant past. The Greek present is different because it is an aspect and not a tense. It conveys a part of the action, not including the end, and is evidently timeless, except in resultative situations, that is, when an action ends with a resulting state following. The resultant state is unbounded. This conclusion is derived from the book, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research pp. 881, 882; by A. T. Robertson and the book Verbal Aspect in the Greek of the New Testament p. 78 by S. Porter. Greek future is about the same as English so it’s a grammaticalized tense, and the imperfect normally makes visible a sequence of a continuous action in the past. I’m sure you know all this. Some feel the NWT renders ego eimi as “I have been” in an attempt to harmonize the text in question with antitrinitarian doctrine. Some feel too that even the context dictates it’s wrong. Care must be take to be literal in translation and actually any translation of ego eimi is literal. So now let’s look at both Jesus’ original words and context. Jesus lived in the period between Classical Hebrew and Mischnaic Hebrew, but there is no evidence that tense-system of Mishnaic Hebrew was at work. A participle of the Hebrew verb haya (to be) is used only twice in the Hebrew text of the Bible. Ex. 9:3 and Pr 13:19. And of the 50 occurrences of the first person singular of the verb in Hebrew imperfect, all cases, except possibly 5 (Job 3:16; 10:19; 12:4; 17:6 and Ruth 2:13) have future meaning. So Jesus’ use of the Hebrew participle or imperfect is unlikely. The perfect of the first person singular occurs 63 times, but a search reveals only two instances where the Septuagint translated them eimi (Job 11:4 and Ex. 2:22) and one instance by ego eimi (Job 30:9). There are 18 instances that are assessed as having future meaning, 28 as having past meaning and 17 as having present meaning. Of the last mentioned 3 are viewed as imperfects of eimi and 1 as active or passive aorists of ginomai (to come into existence). Jesus could have used the Hebrew perfect, ani hayiti (or just hayiti) as one Hebrew New Testament (published by The Bible Society in Israel and translated by Norman Henry Snaith) translates John 8:58. But it is more likely that he used the words found in another Hebrew New Testament, namely, ani hu,(The New Testament in Hebrew and English published by The Society for Distributing the Holy Scriptures to the Jews, Edgware, Middlesex, England), or that he simply used the single pronoun ani.( which means “I” and hu means “he”. In Hebrew the pronoun hu could be used a copula (with the meaning is, or more rarely was or will be) in clauses without any verb. The pronoun hu as also used for emphasis (ani hu, “it is I’ or “I am the one”). In the Septuagint all 9 occurrences of ani hu are translated by ego eimi. However, in 160 other instances the words ego eimi in the Septuagint translate the lone Hebrew pronoun ani. There are two examples ehye rendered by ego eimi in the LXX (Ex 3:14 and Hosea 1:9) (continued) |
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244 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 76083 | ||
Hi Tim, You wrote: The 'hidding' of their identifies is one problem with the NWT, but the major problem is the 'translation' itself. Words are added that are not found in or supported by the text in any way. Verbs are translated in impossible ways. New verb forms are invented, as in John 8:58 where one writer called 'eimi' a 'perfect indicative', of which there is no such thing in Greek! The NWT is not really a translation at all! Other translations of John 8:58 follow. So why is it that you say this ? Do conclude that these are not translations at all! Too? They have their scholarly credentials yet translate different than you. New American Standard Bible (NASB) (margin 1960-1973 editions): Or, "I have been." The Living New Testament: "The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." The 20th Century New Testament: "before Abraham existed I was." The New Testament, An American Translation Goodspeed: "I tell you I existed before Abraham was born." The Complete Bible, An American Translation Goodspeed: "I tell you I existed before Abraham was born." New Believers Bible, New Living Translation: "I existed before Abraham was even born." The New Testament, C. B. Williams: "I solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born." The Book, New Testament: "The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." The Living Bible: "I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." The Four Gospels, Lattimore: "Truly, truly I tell you, I am from before Abraham was born." The New Testament, From the Peshitta Text, Lamsa: "Before Abraham was born, I was." An American Translation, In The Language of Today, Beck: "I was before Abraham." New Testament Contemporary English Version: "I tell you.that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am." The Living Scriptures (Messianic Version): "I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." The Unvarnished New Testament: "Before Abraham was born, I have already been." The New Testament, Klist and Lilly: "I am here-and I was before Abraham." The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams: "I existed before Abraham was born." The New Testament, Noyes: "From before Abraham was, I have been." A Translation of the Four Gospels, Lewis: "Before Abraham was, I have been." The Syriac New Testament, Murdock: "Before Abraham existed I was." The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Burkitt: "Before Abraham came to be, I was." The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John, Blake and Briere: "Before Abraham came to be, I was." Nouvum Testamentum AEthiopice, Platt, Lepzip: "Before Abraham was born, I was." The New Testament Or Rather the New Covenant, Sharpe: "I was before Abraham was born." The 20th Century New Testament 1904: "Before Abraham existed I was already what I am." The New Testament, Stage: "Before Abraham came to be, I was." The Coptic Version the New Testament in the Southern Dialect, Horner: "Before Abraham became, I, I am being." The Documents of the New Testament, Wade: "Before Abraham came into being, I have existed." The New Testament in Hebrew, Delitzsh: "Before Abraham was, I have been." The New Testament in Hebrew, Salkinson and Ginsberg: "I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham." The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Swan: "I existed before Abraham was born." The New Testament (in German) Pfaefflin: "Before there was an Abraham, I was already there." The Authentic New Testament, Schonfield: "I existed before Abraham was born." Biblia Sagdrada, Roman Catholic: "Before Abraham existed, I was existing." The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Noli: "I existed before Abraham was born." The Concise Gospel and The acts, Christianson: "I existed even before Abraham was born." A Translators Handbook to the Gospel of John, Nida: "Before Abraham existed, I existed, or.I have existed." The Simple English Bible: "I was alive before Abraham was born." The Original New Testament, Schonfield: "I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born." The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version, Miller: "I existed before there was an Abraham." Truthfinder |
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245 | Exodus 3:14 connected to John 8:58? | Ex 3:14 | Truthfinder | 76079 | ||
(part 3)Now the Septuagint was the translation done for the benefit of the increasing number of Greek-speaking Jews a couple of centuries earlier, so naturally it is the version of the Old Testament that is normally referred to in the New Testament, and certainly the one most likely to be known to the early readers of John's Gospel. Its translation of Exodus 3:14 follows the sense (as understood by the Jewish translators) rather than the exact form of the Hebrew: egw eimi ho wn ... Ho wn apestalke me, which translates into English literally as 'I am the being one',' [8] and 'the being one has sent me'. Now the words egw eimi here are the emphatic pronoun and the copula as in most of the passages cited above; and ho an represents a relative clause which in its first occurrence would be hos eimi and in its second occurrence would be hos esti, [9] but the most natural translation into English of both would be 'the one who is (who really exists)',' [10] the verb having its basic meaning (and being so accented), and not being a mere copula In neither is there any possibility of inserting an emphatic egw. So the emphatic words used by Jesus in the passages referred to above are perfectly natural in their contexts, and they do not echo the words of Exodus 3:14 in the normally quoted Greek version. Thus they are quite unlikely to have been used in the New Testament to convey that significance, however much the modern English versions of the relevant passages, following the form of the Hebrew words, may suggest it. ------------------------------------------------------- Footnotes: [1] I have seen one such speaker try to impress his audience by writing the words on a blackboard, only to demonstrate that he was ignorant of even the simplest details of Greek. [2] Its position is unemphatic, but the degree of emphasis could be reduced by its omission, which would make no difference to the meaning. The omission of the copula is quite common in Greek, especially, but not exclusively, in the third person. [3] The fact that this is a reported statement, in a hoti clause, does not affect the grammar, but only the degree of emphasis. [4] In translation, if as is likely, the original reply was the equivalent in Aramaic. [5] Note that with this meaning the verb is differently accented in Greek ( E)GW\ E)MI/ instead of E)GW E)IMI ). [6] For the construction see K. L. McKay, A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek: An aspectual approach (Peter Lang, 1994), 4.2.4. [7] For extensive modern discussion of the problems of interpretation see Brevard S. Childs, Exodus: A Commentary (OTL, SCM, 1974) and John 1. Durham, Exodus (WBC 3, Word, 1987). See also Martin Noth, Exodus (OTL, SCM, 2nd ed. 1966); U. Cassuto, Commentary on the Book of Exodus (Magnes Press), 1. P. Hyatt, Exodus (NCB, Oliphants, 1971); Alan Cole, Exodus (TC, IVP, 1973); J. W. Wevers, Notes on the Greek Text of Exodus (Scholars Press, 1990). [8] As Noth mentions in a footnote. [9] Cf. the Vulgate translation of 14b: Qui est misit me ad vos. [10] English has lost the full range of inflections, and the relative pronoun is now treated as if it were always third person. Truthfinder |
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246 | Exodus 3:14 connected to John 8:58? | Ex 3:14 | Truthfinder | 76078 | ||
Part 2 Although the natural English translations differ, there are two contexts of this kind in which Jesus uses the words egw eimi alone to identify himself: in 6:20, where the disciples are afraid of the apparition they see walking on the water, and Jesus reassures them by identifying himself, quite naturally, with these words, which translate into English as 'It is I'; and in 18:5, while Jesus acknowledges that he is Jesus of Nazareth by speaking the same words, which are naturally translated into English as 'I am he'. The syntactic difference between them is that in the former egw is the complement, the unexpressed subject being something equivalent to 'what you see', and in the latter egw is the subject, the unexpressed complement being 'Jesus of Nazareth'. In both these passages egw eimi is the natural Greek response [4] in the circumstances, as may be seen in 9:9, where the man cured of blindness uses exactly the same words to acknowledge his identity. The dramatic reaction of the arresting party in 18:6 is readily explained if we note that the confident authority of Jesus's presence was such that he defeated the merchants in the temple (2:15), and he simply walked away when the crowd was intent on throwing him over the brow of the hill near Nazareth (Luke 4:28-30). The verb 'to be' is used differently, in what is presumably its basic meaning of 'be in existence', in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai egw eimi, [5] which would be most naturally translated 'I have been in existence since before Abraham was born', [6] if it were not for the obsession with the simple words 'I am'. If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction. For the emphasis on the words 'I am' we need to look back to God's words to Moses in Exodus 3:14, 'I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I am has sent me to you".' The passage in its Hebrew form has been discussed by many commentators as something of a problem, with possibilities that the verb could mean 'I am', 'I will be', 'I become', or 'I will become', and the pronoun 'that', 'who', 'what', or even 'because'. Some see a need to emend the text, and some stress various critical principles as basic to its interpretation. A few refer to the Septuagint translation of the passage as relevant for understanding it. [7] (continued) Truthfinder |
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247 | Exodus 3:14 connected to John 8:58? | Not Specified | Truthfinder | 76076 | ||
Hi Tim You wrote: There isn't any doubt as to what Jesus was doing in this verse. He uses the exact phrase that Jehovah used of Himself in Ex. 3:14, as translated by the LXX. The LXX says in Ex 3:14: (transliterated) Kai apen ha theos prahs Monsan, legon, eigo emi ha On, (And spoke the God toward Moses, saying, I am the Being. Translation provided in the LXX: And God spoke to Moses, sayking, I am THE BEING. Kenneth L. McKay, who graduated with honors in Classics from the Universities of Sydney and Cambridge, taught Greek in universities and theological colleges in Nigeria, New Zealand, and England, who taught at the Australian National University for 26 years, has written numerous articles on ancient Greek syntax, as well as authored a book on Classical Attic, Greek Grammar for Students, and A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek: an aspectual approach, provides the following in relation to the alleged "true parallel between Exodus 3:14 (LXX) and John 8:58" . And further recommends an author of whom I make mention of by saying, “ I recommend Rolf Furuli's chapter concerning John 8:58 for a through explanation of this point.” ------------------------------------------------------ 'I am' in John's Gospel The Expository Times, 1996, page 302 BY K. L. MCKAY, MA, FORMERLY OF THE AUSTRALIAN UNIVERSITY ------------------------------------------------------- It has become fashionable among some preachers and writers to relate Jesus's use of the words 'I am' in the Gospel according to John, in all, or most, of their contexts, to God's declaration to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and to expound the passages concerned as if the words themselves have some kind of magic in them. Some who have no more than a smattering of Greek attribute the 'magic' to the Greek words egw eimi. [1] I wish briefly to draw attention to the normality of the Greek in all such passages, and the unlikelihood of the words egw eimi being intended to suggest any special significance of this kind. It is, of course, perfectly reasonable to draw attention to Jesus's claims about himself by noting the 'I am' element common to them: 'I am the bread of life' (6:35), 'I am the light of the world' (8:12), 'I am the gate/door' (10:7), 'I am the good shepherd' (10:11), 'I am the resurrection and the life' (11:25), 'I am the way, the truth and the life' (14:6), 'I am the true vine' (15:1). These statements give important insights into the identity and work of Jesus, and we can be challenged to decide whether the words 'I am' in them convey truth, delusion, deceit, or something else. In each case the Greek words used are egw eimi, the pronoun being emphatic (as is usually appropriate in beginning a startling fresh statement, answering a question of identity or personal activity, and in some other circumstances), and the verb, also slightly emphatic, [2] being the normal use of the verb 'to be' as a copula, the means of linking the subject with the significant words, 'bread', 'light', etc., which occur as noun complements. The same principle applies when the complement is an adjective or an adverb or adverbial phrase used adjectivally. With variations of context the degree of emphasis may vary, and either the pronoun or the verb may be omitted. In the parallelism of 8:23 pronoun and verb are separated: humeis ek ton kato este, egw ek ton ano eimi, but in the immediately following parallel statement the introduction of a negative brings the verb forward (thus also giving extra emphasis to toutou): egw ouk eimi ek tou kosmou toutou. In 14:10 the verb is omitted, because it is understood from the rest of the sentence: egw en tw patri kai ho pater en emoi estin. [3] In 14:20 a development from the same statement, also in a hoti clause, omits the copula entirely: egw en tw patri mou kai humeis en emoi kagw en humin. In 10:36 the personal pronoun is not needed for emphasis, and is omitted: huios tou theou eimi. In 7:34 and 7:36 the clause structure demands the postposition of the subject: hopou eimi egw humeis ou dunasthe elthein. (Continued) |
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248 | Exodus 3:14 connected to John 8:58? | Ex 3:14 | Truthfinder | 76077 | ||
Hi Tim You wrote: There isn't any doubt as to what Jesus was doing in this verse. He uses the exact phrase that Jehovah used of Himself in Ex. 3:14, as translated by the LXX. The LXX says in Ex 3:14: (transliterated) Kai apen ha theos prahs Monsan, legon, eigo emi ha On, (And spoke the God toward Moses, saying, I am the Being. Translation provided in the LXX: And God spoke to Moses, sayking, I am THE BEING. Kenneth L. McKay, who graduated with honors in Classics from the Universities of Sydney and Cambridge, taught Greek in universities and theological colleges in Nigeria, New Zealand, and England, who taught at the Australian National University for 26 years, has written numerous articles on ancient Greek syntax, as well as authored a book on Classical Attic, Greek Grammar for Students, and A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek: an aspectual approach, provides the following in relation to the alleged "true parallel between Exodus 3:14 (LXX) and John 8:58" . And further recommends an author of whom I make mention of by saying, “ I recommend Rolf Furuli's chapter concerning John 8:58 for a through explanation of this point.” ------------------------------------------------------ 'I am' in John's Gospel The Expository Times, 1996, page 302 BY K. L. MCKAY, MA, FORMERLY OF THE AUSTRALIAN UNIVERSITY ------------------------------------------------------- It has become fashionable among some preachers and writers to relate Jesus's use of the words 'I am' in the Gospel according to John, in all, or most, of their contexts, to God's declaration to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and to expound the passages concerned as if the words themselves have some kind of magic in them. Some who have no more than a smattering of Greek attribute the 'magic' to the Greek words egw eimi. [1] I wish briefly to draw attention to the normality of the Greek in all such passages, and the unlikelihood of the words egw eimi being intended to suggest any special significance of this kind. It is, of course, perfectly reasonable to draw attention to Jesus's claims about himself by noting the 'I am' element common to them: 'I am the bread of life' (6:35), 'I am the light of the world' (8:12), 'I am the gate/door' (10:7), 'I am the good shepherd' (10:11), 'I am the resurrection and the life' (11:25), 'I am the way, the truth and the life' (14:6), 'I am the true vine' (15:1). These statements give important insights into the identity and work of Jesus, and we can be challenged to decide whether the words 'I am' in them convey truth, delusion, deceit, or something else. In each case the Greek words used are egw eimi, the pronoun being emphatic (as is usually appropriate in beginning a startling fresh statement, answering a question of identity or personal activity, and in some other circumstances), and the verb, also slightly emphatic, [2] being the normal use of the verb 'to be' as a copula, the means of linking the subject with the significant words, 'bread', 'light', etc., which occur as noun complements. The same principle applies when the complement is an adjective or an adverb or adverbial phrase used adjectivally. With variations of context the degree of emphasis may vary, and either the pronoun or the verb may be omitted. In the parallelism of 8:23 pronoun and verb are separated: humeis ek ton kato este, egw ek ton ano eimi, but in the immediately following parallel statement the introduction of a negative brings the verb forward (thus also giving extra emphasis to toutou): egw ouk eimi ek tou kosmou toutou. In 14:10 the verb is omitted, because it is understood from the rest of the sentence: egw en tw patri kai ho pater en emoi estin. [3] In 14:20 a development from the same statement, also in a hoti clause, omits the copula entirely: egw en tw patri mou kai humeis en emoi kagw en humin. In 10:36 the personal pronoun is not needed for emphasis, and is omitted: huios tou theou eimi. In 7:34 and 7:36 the clause structure demands the postposition of the subject: hopou eimi egw humeis ou dunasthe elthein. (Continued) |
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249 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 76071 | ||
Hi Tim, You wrote: Two quick points before I translate John 8:58. 1) What do you mean when you say that Greek is aspectual? I am not familiar with that term. Fact is, there are many linguists that deal in the finer nuances of the verbal systems of the biblical languages. Modern linguistic principles dictate considerable improvement in appreciating the original ideas of the Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. I appreciate the logic, sound reasoning and considerable Bibliography, of author and university lecturer Rolf Furuli of no less than 25 years. He explains that the basic difference between the verbal systems is that in Greek, “aspect” is grammaticalized and this is also true in Hebrew, but not in English. Now, grammaticalization means that a particular grammatical characteristic is connected with the verb form and is not dependent upon the context. He goes on to say, “Most linguistic works on English say that English has aspects, but this is because aspect is used in a sense different from how it is used in this study (See J. Hewson and V. Bubenik, Tense and Aspect in Indo-European Languages, see also Current Issues in Linguistic Theory (Amsterdam: J. Benamins, 1997). P. 145) If “aspects” are defined as “viewpoints,” the perfective one being a focus encompassing both the beginning and the end of an event or state, and the imperfective one being a focus on a small sequence after the beginning and before the end, then English is capable of expressing aspects. But there is no English form, the purpose of which is exclusively to express aspect. Both in Hebrew and Greek, the fundamental parts of the verbal system are exclusively aspectual and their area of use are much broader than that of simple past and past continuous, which in English are used to express viewpoint. So, while both English and Hebrew/Greek are capable of expressing durative and punctual viewpoints, their fundamental role in the verbal system and their completely different areas of use, make Hebrew and Greek aspects qualitatively different from what is called “aspect” in English. 2) Why would I have to be completely time indifferent, since Greek is not time indifferent? It has past, present, perfect, and future tenses. Again, only in an in depth study of the “Excursus on Hebrew and Greek Verbs” is this made apparent to Greek and Hebrew language studies. The concept of “tense” is defined as “the grammaticalization of location in time.” (See B. Comrie, Tense; Cambridge University Press, 1985, p. 7) This means that whether the time of the verbal action is past, present or future, related to speech time or to some other time, it is seen by the verb form itself and not by the context alone. Thus, the words “went” and “taught”, in English, are past tense. Given Comrie’s definition of “tense,” neither Hebrew nor Greek have tenses, save possibly Greek future, which is viewed by most researchers as a tense. (See S. Porter, Verbal Aspect in the Greek of the New Testament, with Reference to Tense and Mood 1993, pp. 76-83. Porter denies that tense is grammaticalized at all in New Testament Greek.) The word “tense,” for Hebrew perfect and imperfect, or Greek present, aorist or imperfect really is a misnomer, though it still is used in most studies on the Greek verb and in some studies on the Hebrew verb. All the three recent dissertations on the Greek verb (Porter, Fanning and Olsen--A Semantic and Pragmatic Model of Lexical and Grammatical Aspect- differentiate between tense and time in a fine way. D. B. Wallace has a very fine discussion of this subject in his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament -- Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, pp. 504-510. The valuable Hebrew syntax written by Waltke and O’Connor -- An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax by Eisenbrauns, 1990 also distinguishes between time and tense. However, the recent comparative grammar of the Semitic languages written by E. Lipinski, Analecta 80; Leuven: Uitgiveij Peeters en Departement Oosterse Studies, 1997, while generally having a high quality, takes for granted that verbs in Hebrew having past meaning also have past tense. It is methodologically unsound to draw such a conclusion, since the past time can be a function of the context (thus being pragmatic) just as well as being a function of the verb (thus being semantic). Therefore, serious Hebrew and Greek linguists avoid using the “tense” but instead “conjugations” and speak of Greek present and Greek imperfect without adding the word “tense.” This is all well discussed and illustrated by Furuli. Truthfinder |
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250 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75657 | ||
John 8:58 Hi Tim, What's your understanding of how this verse should be most accurately translated, in a strictly literal way, since English isn't an aspectual language and Greek is? Remember to be completely time indifferent and grammatically correct, when you translate it. I'll show you how I would translate it(in Hebrew, Spanish, and of course in English) and why. Take your time, and be as comprehensive as you like. Please provide parts of speech, as I will understand. :) Truthfinder |
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251 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75536 | ||
Hi Tim, Thank you for your lists. I didn’t mean to imply that the translators were not published but it takes research to locate what you provided. Yet, in honor of the king of England it was called the King James Bible. Interestingly the translators had worked for years, using basically the inherited Tyndale-Coverdale text and adding their own improvements. These centered particularly around the choice of words and enhancement of the rhythmic quality of the text. The result was a version superior to its predecessors in accuracy of translation and refinement of literary style. Yet, note too that it was met with sever criticism by not only the common people but even scholars. Broughton, a Hebrew scholar of the day, wrote to King James that he “should rather be torn asunder by wild horses than allow such a version to be imposed on the church.” Since the original translation was made, many changes have been made, many of them in the readings of passages, that the Committee on Versions (1851-56) of the American Bible Society found 24,000 variations in six different editions of the King James Version! In many respects the beliefs of King James adversely affected the Bible translation called after his name. The translators, feeling somewhat bound to favor the king, were obliged to color the translation with the king’s notions of predestination and kingly rights, as well as with others of the king’s ideas. This is apparent from the fact that some of the translators complained that they could not follow their own judgment, being restrained by “reasons of state.” The result: the King James Version is not a true reflection of the minds of the translators of the version. Above all, it comes far short of being a faithful reflection of the mind of Jehovah God, as it appears in the original Bible, despite the so called credentials of the translators. Do you deem the New American Standard an unworthy Bible translation as you do the New World Translation based on the credentials of the translators since they too chose to remain anonymous? Truthseeker |
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252 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75467 | ||
This reveals poor research on your part EdB since, the first writer to use the term “Jehova” was a Catholic monk; not Tyndale! Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican order, first rendered the divine name as “Jehova.” This form appeared in his book Pugeo Fidei, published in 1270 C.E.—over 700 years ago. Also, Adonai is not even a Greek word but the Hebrew Word translated into English as Lord. If you read any Hebrew translation as I do you will see that the vowel points are provided so yes indeed it is pronounced in Hebrew. Get a copy at Barns and Nobel book store. Jay Green’s Interlinear provides the vowel points so you can pronounce God’s name in Hebrew, which by the way is Yehovah. But when I speak English I use either Jehovah or Yaweh. Can you please tell me who the translators of the King James or the New American Standard Bible were? Like those translators the men who compose the translation committee of the NWT have indicated their desire to remain anonymous, and specifically do not want their names to be published while they are alive or after their death. The purpose of the translation is to exalt not men but the name of the living, true God. Although, I do know who one of the members of the committee was but respect his wishes. Interestingly, the jacket of the 1971 Reference Edition of the New American Standard Bible similarly stated: “We have not used any scholar’s name for reference or recommendations because it is our belief God’s Word should stand on its merits.” Your other question: How did they come upon the Codex Leningrad B 19A? Bible Societys that meet certain requirements can visit and sometimes photo copy the manuscripts in Russia as they did, although I do know of an individual who did from California and published a book on God’s name. Truthseeker |
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253 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75390 | ||
SELECTIONS - ABRIDGED or INCOMPLETE BIBLES 1) Sherman and Kent Children’s Bible .......................................... Jehovah-many times 2) Oort The Bible for Learners 1896 ............................................ Yahweh-a few times 3) Kent, C.K. The Shorter Bible Vol. 1, O.T. 1918 ..................... Jehovah - many times 4) Greenlees, D. The Gospel of Israel 1955 ................................ Yahweh - many times 5) Andrew’s Holy Bible 1977 ....................................Jehovah and Yahweh - many times BIBLE PORTIONS (From Magazines, Periodicals, Etc.) 1) Schliebe O.T. - Metrical Synopsis ................................................................Jehovah 2) C.G. Seerveld Perspective Newsletter May 1972, Vol.6, No. 3, p. 21 Ps.5..Yahweh 3) Strong Beauty of Holiness 1862. P. 144-5 Ps-18 ..........................................Jehovah 4) Strong Beauty of Holiness 1862. P. 184 Ps-19 .............................................Jehovah 5). Margolis Biblioa 1970, 51:334 - 5 Ps 29 ....................................................Yahweh 6) J.Wolfe (Eph. M. Epstein) Isaiah 52:12 - 53:12 Gold from Ophir 188 p.70-1 ................................................................................................................Jehovah 7) A.E. Knoch Ps.23 Unsearchable Riches May 1965 .......................................Jehovah 8) B.W. Newton Ps 2 The Nations in Relation to Christ as in the Second Psalm (Pamphlet) n.d. .............................................................Jehovah 9) W. Coslet Isaiah 53 The Bible Versionist July 48 ...................................... (Jehovah Truthseeker |
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254 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75389 | ||
6) Wand, J.W.C. N.T. Letters 1946 ................. Jehovah- 8 times Ro. 9:29; 11:4; 12:19 ...............................................................................................He. 7:21; Jude 5; I Pet.1:2 7) Newcome N.T. 1796 .....................................................................................Jehovah 8) Kneeland N.T. 1822 ......................................................................................Jehovah 9) Roth N.T. 1963 ........................................................................ Jehovah - many times 10) Dr. Dymond N.T. (Manuscript only - never published - 1972) ................................ ...............................................................................................................Jehovah-YHWH 11) Campbell, Four Gospels 1796 ............................. Jehovah - Footnote for Lu.20:43 12) Perkiomen Press N.T. 1909 ............................................... Jehovah - Acts 2:25, 34 13) Rutherford, W.G. Romans 1914 .................................................. Jehovah - 6 times 14.) Eliot, John 1661 N.T. [American Indian Language] ............. Jehovah - many times .........................................................................Examples: Acts 2: 39, 47; Acts 3:19, 22 15) Ballentine American Bible 5 Vols. N.T. 1901 .......................................JEHOVAH .....................................................................Ro 7 Times; I Cor. 5 Times; 2 Cor. 1 Time 16) Kent, C.K. The Messages of the Apostles 1902 .................... Jehovah - many times 17) Wakefield, G. N.T. 1795 .......................................... Jehovah - Rev. 19:1, 3, 4 and 6 INTERLINEARS 1) Berry, G. 1970 (Hebrew-Engl.) Gen. and Exe. ....................... Jehovah - many times 2) Bagster (Hebr.-Engl.) Psalter 1967 ......................................... Jehovah - many times 3) Greenfield, W. (Hebr-Engl.) Bk. of Gen. 1848 ....................... Jehovah - many times 4) Green, J. (Hebr.-Greek- Engl.) Complete Bible....................... Jehovah - many times 5) Tregelles, S. P. (Hebr. - Engl.) Hebrew Reading Lessons ...... Jehovah - many times .............................................................................................Parts of Gen., Deut., and Pro. 6) Kohlenberger Hebrew Interlinear............................................ Yahweh - many times |
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255 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75388 | ||
29) Horsley, S. Book of Ps 1833 ................................................. Jehovah - many times 30) Cheyne, T.K. Bk of Ps 1884 .................................................. Jehovah - many times 31) Milton, John 1 st Eight Psalms ................................................... Jehovah - 14 times 32) Cobb B of Ps 1905 ................................................................... JHVH - many times 33) Cameron Songs of Sorrow and Praise 1924 ............................ Jehovah - many times 34) Dawson New Metrical Version of the Psalter n.d. .................... Jehovah - Ps 83:18 35)Maxwell A New version Bk of Ps in Metre 1723 ...................... Jehovah - Ps 83:18 36) Driver Parallel Psalter 1898 ................................................. Jehovah - many times 37) Young Metrical Psalms and Paraphrases 1909 P. 54 King James MS.................................................................... Jehouas - many times P. 60-1 Sir Wm. Mure .........................................................................Jehouah - Ps 122 38) Four Friends Ps Chronologically Arranged 1891 .................. Jehovah - many times 39) Street Psalms ......................................................................... Jehovah - many times 40) McSwiney, James Psalms and Canticles 1901 ..................... Yahweh - a few times 41) Oesterley Psalms ................................................................... Yahweh - many times N.T. and N.T. PORTIONS 1) LeFevre, G.N. N.T. 1929 ........................................................ Jehovah - many times 2) New World Translation ............................................................. Jehovah - 277 times 3) Traina Sacred Name N.T. 1950 ............................................. Yahweh - many times) 4) Restoration of Original Sacred Name N.T. 1970 .................... Yahweh - many times 5) Wilson, B. Emphatic Diaglot 1866 ................................................ Jehovah-18 times ..........Mt. 21:9; 21:42; 22:37; 22:44; 23:39 Mk. 11:9; 12:11; 12:29(2x); 12:30; 12:36 ..........................................Lu. 10:27; 13:35; 19:38; 20:37; 20:42; Jo. 12:13; Acts 2:34 |
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256 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75387 | ||
13) Terrien, Samual Ps 1952 ....................................................... Yahweh - many times 14) Alexander, J.A. Ps 1873 ........................................................ Jehovah - many times 15) Gowen, H.H. Ps 1930 ........................................................... Yahweh - many times 16) Hugh-Ensor, Henry Ps 4 vols. 1954 ...................................... Yahweh - many times 17) Stryker, M.W. Ps 1915 .......................................................... Jehovah - many times 18) Collier, E.A. Lyrics from the Psalter 1907 ..................................................Jehovah 19) Lattey, C. First Bk of Ps - Westminster Version 1939 ........... Jehovah - many times 20) Kissane, E.J. Book of Ps 2vols. 1953 and 1954 ............................................Yahweh 21) Maria, Mother (Lydia Gysi) Ps 1973 ....................................... Jahwe - many times 22) Dahood, M. Ps 2 vols. 1965 - 1966 ...................................... Yahweh - many times 23) The Psalms of Sir Philip Sidney and the Countess of Pembroke 1593 ............Jehova 24) King James (Himself) The Psalms of King David, translated by King James - ...............................Manuscript - Jehouas many times; 1631 edition - Iehovah Ps 83:18 25) Driver, S.R. Ps 1904 ............................................................. Jehovah - many times 26) King, E.G. Ps 1898 ..................................................................YHVH - many times 27) Seller, T.M. Psalm Poems 1974 ............................................ Jehovah - many times 28) J.C. (Jane Copley) The Peerless Poems of David, the King 1923 .......... Jehovah - ......................................................................................................................a few times |
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257 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75386 | ||
1) Bay Psalm Book 1640 1903 reprint ........................................ Iehovah - a few times 2) McFadyen, J.E. Ps in Modern Speech 1916 ............................. Jehovah- many times 3) Kirkpatrick, A.F. Book of Ps 1921 ...............................................Jehovah- Ps.83:18 4) Lamsa Ps 1939 ..............................................................................Jehovah- Ps.83:18 5) Cheyne, T.K. Book of Ps 1904 .................................................. Yahwe - many times 6) The American Psalter 1930 ..........................................................Jehovah- Ps.83:18 7) Lund, E. Ps 1908 ........................................................................ Yahve - many times 8) Common Prayer Book 1859 ..... The Psalter use Jehovah @ Ps. 33:12 : 68:4 ; 83:18 9) The Church of Scotland 1881 The Book of Ps in Metre .................................................................. Jehovah - 10 times Translations and Paraphrase ................................................................. Jehovah - 2 times Scottish Hymnal ................................................................................. Jehovah - 4 times l0.) Rotherham, J.B. Studies in the Ps 1911 ................................. Jehovah - many times 11.) Sandys, George PS 1676 ...................................................... Jehovah - many times 12) Dewitt, John Praise - Songs of Israel: a rendering of the Bk of Ps ......... Jehovah - .......................................................................................................................many times |
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258 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75385 | ||
39) Smith, G.A. Bk of the Twelve Prophets 2 vols. 1928 ........... Yahweh - many times 40) Robinson, T.H. Bk of Genesis 2 nd ed. ................................ Yahweh - a few times 41) Watts A Distinctive Tr. of Exodus 1977 ............................... Yahweh - many times 42) Watts A Distinctive Tr. of Isaiah 1979 ................................. Yahweh - many times 43) Cook, F.C. Holy Bible Vol. 5 Isaiah 1875 ........................ Jehovah - Isa 12:2; 26:4 44) Addis Documents of the Hexateuch 2 vols. 1893 .................... Yahwe - many times 45) Ainsworth upon the Five Bks of Moses 1639 .......... Jehovah/Iehovah - many times 46) Newcome Minor Prophets 1795 ............................................ Jehovah - many times 47) Dodson Isaiah 1790 ............................................................... Jehovah - many times 48) Watts Gensis ......................................................................... Yahweh - many times 49) Rodwell Isaiah 1881 ............................................................... Jahveh - many times 50) Wilkinson, T.H. Job 1901 ....................................................... Jahveh - many times 51) Kissane Job 1939 ................................................................... Jahweh - many times 52) Kissane Isaiah 2 vols. 1941-1943 .......................................... Jahweh - many times 53) Duhm, Bernard Twelve Prophets 1912 ....................................Iahweh - many times 54) Helmuth, J. Genesis 1884 .........................................................YHVH - many times |
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259 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75384 | ||
17) Kent, C.K. The Messages of the Bible 1900 ......................... Jehovah - many times 18) Brown, C.R. Jeremiah 1907 .................................................. Jehovah - many times 19) Woods and Powell The Hebrew Prophets 1909-1911 ..................... Jehovah - a few .............................................................times in text Jehovah - many times in Sub-Titles 20) Talmid The Book of Job and Song of Sol. 1890 ..... Jehovah - many times Pg 5 of 12 21) A.F.G. and W.M.T. Bk of Job n.d. ................................................ Jehovah - page 86 22) Owens, J.J. Exodus 1977 ...................................................... Yahweh - many times 23) Genung, J.F. Bk of Job 1893 .......................................... Jehovah - Footnote p. 134 24) Sprague, H.B. Bk of Job 1913 ............................................... Jehovah - many times 25) Raymond, R.W. Bk of Job 1878 ........................................... Jehovah - a few times 26) Bellamy Holy Bible (Pentateuch) 1818 ................................. Jehovah - many times 27) Lowth, Robert Isaiah 1778 .................................................... Jehovah - many times 28) Harkavy, A. Holy Scriptures 1936 (Jewish) .. Jehovah - Ex 6:3; Ps 83:18; Isa 12:2 29) Noyes, G.R. Hebrew Prophets 1843 ..................................... Jehovah - many times 30) Fox, Everett In the Beginning 1983 ........................................ YHWH - many times 31) Deere The Twelve Speak 1961 ............................................. Yahweh - many times 32) Noyes, G.R. Job, Eccl., and The Canticles 1868 ..................... Jehovah - a few times 33) Barnes, A. Notes on the O.T. Job 2 vols. (New Tr.) ............ Jehovah - a few times 34) Gilbert The Poetry of Job 1889 ............................................. Jehovah - many times 35) Driver, S.R. Bk of Jeremiah 1908 ......................................... Yahweh - many times 36) Hitchcock First twelve Chapters of Isaiah 1912 ................... Jehovah - many times 37) Box, G.H. Bk of Isaiah 1916 ................................................... Jahveh - many times 38) Vawter The Conscience of Israel 1961 ................................. Yahweh - many times |
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260 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 75383 | ||
O.T. and PORTIONS 1) Knox 2vols. O.T. 1948-9 ................................................................................... Jave 2) Wade, G.W. Book of Gen. 1896 ................................................Jehovah- many times 3) Book of Yahweh 1922 ............................................................. Yahweh -many times 4) Kent, C.K. The Songs, Hymns and Prayers of the O.T. Students O.T. 1914 ........................................................................Jehovah- many times 5) Concordant Version O.T. Daniel, 1968; Genesis, 1957; Isaiah, 1962 .........................................................................Ieve - Pronounced Yahweh - many times 6) McFadyen, J.E. Isaiah in Modern Speech .................................Jehovah- many times 7) “ ” Jermiah In Modern Speech 1919 .........................................Jehovah- many times 8) A.F.G. and W.M.T. ( Renan. E. French Tr.) Book of Job 1889 ...Jehovah- a few times 9) Banks, J.S. (C. Von Orell) Prophecies if Isaiah 1895 ............. Yahweh - many times 10) Bennett, W.H. Book of Joshua 1896 .......................................... JHVH- many times 11) Moore , G. F . Book of Judges 1896 ......................................... JHVH- many times 12) Cheyne,T.K. Book of Isaiah 1898 ............................................. JHVH- many times 13) Tyndale Pent. 1530 1884 reprint ............................................... Jehovah- Gen.15:2 14) Spurrell, Helen O.T. 1885 ..................................................... Jehovah - many times 15) Wellbeloved, C. O.T. 3 Vols. ............................................... Jehovah - many times 16) Czarnomska, E. Authentic Literature of Israel 2 Vols. 1924 . Yahweh - many times |
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