Results 2681 - 2700 of 3083
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Ray Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
2681 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8582 | ||
The discussion of 2Thess 2:7 on this forum would be good prerequisite reading for this question. Please respond to this interpretation by the use of capitalization. Its from Ray's Personal Copy, or whatever my version is. "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains Him now, so that in His time He may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay..." |
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2682 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8615 | ||
Hi Nolan Keck, Thanks for your remarks. My copy is as you described it with a little bit of NKJ considered here and there. Look at the NKJ at verse 2:7 and tell me who is the Restrainer and who is taken out of the way. | ||||||
2683 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8639 | ||
After reading the posts of my friends here and having gone to the only Greek that I know, namely two Interlinear Greek/English New Testament publications that I own, I'm going to stay with my original copy. With one exception. I believe that God is the One who restrains. If the Greek had the word Restrainer, (and it doesn't), I would have it capitalized. However, I don't believe that He is restrained at all, but rather the son of perdition is. Thus, here is my change to my copy and I believe it agrees with the Greek. "Do you not remember that while I was with you, I was telling you these things? And you know the One who restrains him now, for in His time He will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; there is only One who now restrains until it is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay..." Thanks ahead of time for any continued input. |
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2684 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8642 | ||
Hi Tim Moran, In regard to your last sentence, I wonder why you think that the lawless one is going to be revealed and fully active in the context of this scripture? I see him as being revealed and slayed at Christ's coming. In one of the Interlineal Greek/English publications that I studied for this question, the side column has the New Revised Standard Version. I don't agree with that version for the reading of verse 7, for it doesn't agree with the Greek. One of the Greek publications has "There is One holding it back" and the other also has "until out of the midst it comes." The Holy Spirit isn't an it. Thanks for any more input here. |
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2685 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8644 | ||
Hi Nolan, Please refer to my note to Tim above concerning "it". As far as who is being revealed, is there any reason why both can not be revealed here? | ||||||
2686 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8678 | ||
Hi Tim, I agree with you here, too. There is only one Restrainer, the One who holds back and the One we know and love. | ||||||
2687 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8683 | ||
Hi Tim, Concerning the NRSV, I was referring to the addition of the pronoun it. I think that it refers to the mystery of lawlessness or the lawless one, whichever. Thus I would not see a pronoun here to capitalize, whether he or it. If you want to say that "it" should be there in the NRSV then you are saying that the mystery of lawlessness which is already at work will then end when the One is removed. See "but only until" in the NRSV. And that is not what you are saying to me that you believe. The verses you referenced for the Holy Spirit point out to me when I checked the Greek/English copies, the fact of inconsistencies of the translators. John 14:26 had the Greek "that One" in the text but ommitted it in translating. In 15:26 the translation in the NRSV is 'he', as also your other reference. Plus, compare John 14:26 and John 16:8 for "that One" in the Greek and NRSV. I think you will be able to see the inconsistency that I don't believe should be there. |
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2688 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8695 | ||
Hi Nolan, I believe the One who restrains is Spirit and that we are in spiritual warfare, but I don't believe that the scripture tells us here that it is the Holy Spirit. If you use the NRSV that perhaps, I don't know, Tim is using then there would be an insertion of the Lord "Jesus" in 2Thess 2:8. Or we could consider capitalizing the Spirit of His mouth instead of the breath of His mouth in verse eight. I don't think so, however. I believe concerning 2Thess 2:6 that in His time He (or he) will be revealed. I don't believe that Satan is in charge of time or even his time. I suppose that it could read "And you know the One who restrains him now, so that in His time he will be revealed." In fact, in reading that just now it makes sense. But again, I don't see the Holy Spirit per se in these verses, and I might even lean toward the inclusion of the Lord *Jesus in verse eight. I do believe that 2Thess 2:11 could very well read, "For this reason (the Spirit) will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." |
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2689 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8719 | ||
Hi Tim, I get the impression that you aren't getting into this capitalization thing. We've discovered so far that the Restrainer is the One who restrains. John 14:26 is clear about who will teach us all things. All three Persons are involved. But the final line is that He will teach you all things. See also John 4:25,"...when that One comes, (He) will declare all things to us." And John 4:19, "Sir, I perceive that You are a (Prophet). Parenthesis mine for comparison. An interesting comparison here might be 2Thess 2:2 with John 4:25 above. Also, 2Thess 2:8 with John 4:29. Let me know if you considered them; the operating word is "might". The disciples knew the Spirit of truth. John 14:17, "...but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; (I) will come to you." Later, Ray |
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2690 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8720 | ||
Hi Tim, I get the impression that you aren't getting into this capitalization thing. We've discovered so far that the Restrainer is the One who restrains. John 14:26 is clear about who will teach us all things. All three Persons are involved. But the final line is that He will teach you all things. See also John 4:25,"...when that One comes, (He) will declare all things to us." And John 4:19, "Sir, I perceive that You are a (Prophet). Parenthesis mine for comparison. An interesting comparison here might be 2Thess 2:2 with John 4:25 above. Also, 2Thess 2:8 with John 4:29. Let me know if you considered them; the operating word is "might". The disciples knew the Spirit of truth. John 14:17, "...but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; (I) will come to you." Later, Ray |
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2691 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8721 | ||
Hi Tim, I get the impression that you aren't getting into this capitalization thing. We've discovered so far that the Restrainer is the One who restrains. John 14:26 is clear about who will teach us all things. All three Persons are involved. But the final line is that He will teach you all things. See also John 4:25,"...when that One comes, (He) will declare all things to us." And John 4:19, "Sir, I perceive that You are a (Prophet). Parenthesis mine for comparison. An interesting comparison here might be 2Thess 2:2 with John 4:25 above. Also, 2Thess 2:8 with John 4:29. Let me know if you considered them; the operating word is "might". The disciples knew the Spirit of truth. John 14:17, "...but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; (I) will come to you." Later, Ray |
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2692 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8722 | ||
Hi Tim, I get the impression that you aren't getting into this capitalization thing. We've discovered so far that the Restrainer is the One who restrains. John 14:26 is clear about who will teach us all things. All three Persons are involved. But the final line is that He will teach you all things. See also John 4:25,"...when that One comes, (He) will declare all things to us." And John 4:19, "Sir, I perceive that You are a (Prophet). Parenthesis mine for comparison. An interesting comparison here might be 2Thess 2:2 with John 4:25 above. Also, 2Thess 2:8 with John 4:29. Let me know if you considered them; the operating word is "might". The disciples knew the Spirit of truth. John 14:17, "...but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; (I) will come to you." Later, Ray |
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2693 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8723 | ||
Hi Tim, I get the impression that you aren't getting into this capitalization thing. We've discovered so far that the Restrainer is the One who restrains. John 14:26 is clear about who will teach us all things. All three Persons are involved. But the final line is that He will teach you all things. See also John 4:25,"...when that One comes, (He) will declare all things to us." And John 4:19, "Sir, I perceive that You are a (Prophet). Parenthesis mine for comparison. An interesting comparison here might be 2Thess 2:2 with John 4:25 above. Also, 2Thess 2:8 with John 4:29. Let me know if you considered them; the operating word is "might". The disciples knew the Spirit of truth. John 14:17, "...but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; (I) will come to you." Later, Ray |
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2694 | 2Thess 2:7 forum, then respond | 2 Thess 2:6 | Ray | 8724 | ||
Hi Tim, I'm making this thread one of the most popular. :) Sorry about that, my system just wasn't responding. | ||||||
2695 | The Restrainer - Revisited! | 2 Thess 2:7 | Ray | 17520 | ||
Hi Tim, I know that you are writing CDBJ but I also have been studying this passage with you. I appreciate your work here. Because the man of lawlessness makes himself above every so called god and displays himself as being God he will be revealed and taken out of the way. But the fact remains that the hope of the Christian is that the Son of Man is to be revealed. He is coming again and we are looking for Him. It is because of this that I will not fail to capitalize the pronouns of verse six and the Restrainer of verse seven. The Restrainer will do so until the son of destruction will be taken out of the way, revealed, slain, and brought to an end by the appearance of His coming. I wonder why the Person of the Holy Spirit was chosen as the Restrainer. I would have you look at Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father* alone."and "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah." I would think that the Father is the Restrainer. Compare Matthew with 2 Thess.2:6, "And you know what restrains Him* now,..." and "so that in His time He will be revealed." The * is for comparison. The Son of Man will be revealed. 2 Thess 2:14, "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." Tim, what I would disagree with you on then is number 2) of "What do we know for sure?" I am looking for the Son of Man not the son of destruction. Thanks again for your study, Later, Ray |
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2696 | The Restrainer - Revisited! | 2 Thess 2:7 | Ray | 17562 | ||
Hi Tim, I believe that God is applying a lot of self-restraint. If you think that the son of destruction is being restrained perhaps you haven't been listening to today's news. 2 Thess 2:7, "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work..." ONLY [THERE IS] ONE HOLDING [IT] BACK JUST NOW UNTIL OUT OF [THE] MIDST [WAY] HE IS GONE." Greek New Testament, UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Atland 26th edition. So God shows self-restraint and allows it to work until the lawless one is taken out of the midst, revealed, and slain. 2 Thess 2:6, "AND NOW THE ONE HOLDING [HIM] BACK YOU KNOW FOR HIM TO BE REVEALED IN HIS OWN TIME." I know the One holding back. And in His time He will be revealed. He would want to be revealed after the son of destruction displays himself as being God. I think that Colossians 3:1-7 is a good companion passage. "Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ , who is our Life*, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them." Verse 10,"...and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--" Later, Ray |
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2697 | The Restrainer - Revisited! | 2 Thess 2:7 | Ray | 17593 | ||
Hi Tim, You may think that I am confused, but you at least know how I interpret the passage. I do believe that the mystery or the man of lawlessness will be taken out of the midst. (It or he). verse 6. And you know the One who restrains [him] now, for in His time He will be revealed. verse 7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; there is only One holding [it] back just now until he (it) is removed. I am only interested in pronouns of Deity so the bracketed ones here I'm not concerned about. This study reminds me of another string of pronouns which makes one wonder who is being spoken of. Let me introduce a thread on Matthew 11:10 if you are interested. Later, Ray |
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2698 | Why is 2 Thess. 2:7 mis-translated? | 2 Thess 2:7 | Ray | 73156 | ||
Hi Tim, This passage continues to be a difficult one does it not. I have come to agree with you because of past discussions; i.e. verse 6, that the "he" should be lower case, speaking of the lawless one being revealed. Since then we have talked about "this" and "this One" and "that one" concerning the definite article of Strong's 3588. I wonder if you can agree with me for verse 6, "And you know the One who restrains him"; and for verse 7, "only the One who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." Thanks for your work here again, Tim. From the heart, Ray |
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2699 | Why is 2 Thess. 2:7 mis-translated? | 2 Thess 2:7 | Ray | 73263 | ||
Hi Tim, I have to clarify the way that I interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:7. I capitalize the "One who now restrains" but put in lower case the "he is taken out of the way". So when you talk of the "One who will be removed" we are not in agreement. In other words, I agree with Taleb that "it [he] comes out of the midst". Concerning the mystery of lawlessness; The mystery is an it and the lawless one is a he. From the heart, Ray |
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2700 | Why is "he" not capitalized? | 2 Thess 2:7 | Ray | 73513 | ||
Hi Jim, Welcome to the forum. I hope that when you posed your question you noticed the five or six threads that have already discussed the verse. But since I have changed my interpretation through the years, I will use this time with you to update my thoughts and give that same chance to everyone. I am glad that you use a version that capitalizes pronouns of Deity. You have noticed the lower case for the NASB. The NKJ has upper case "He" with a note in the margin [Or, he] for both of the occcurances. So this is definitely a mystery or "hidden truth". Personally, as a "capitalizer" and a "counter of pronouns of Deity" I have an expectant hope that the mystery is meant to be solved. I have had these pronouns penciled in and adding up to a figure divisible by three for the letter of 2 Thessalonians. But since first starting this study I have changed my choices while still keeping that figure. So my interpretation for verses five through seven, for what it is worth, is as follows. "Do you not remember that while I was with you, I was telling you these things? And you know the One who restrains that one now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [there is] the One holding it back until it is taken out of the way." I don't know if we can be certain that it is the Holy Spirit who holds back, but the pronoun is Deity. Personally, I think that the He [the One] who now restrains refers back to verse one "and our gathering together to (Him)" and forward to "the appearance of (His) coming", verse 8. I hope some of that is clear. I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you read what others have said here on the forum. Verses to compare/contrast could be: Matthew 24:39 Romans 11:26 1 John 3:5 1 John 5:19 Revelation 20:6-11 From the heart, Ray |
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