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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | 40 in the bible | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 175262 | ||
Dear holland, Associating some spiritual significance to numbers -- in the Bible or elsewhere -- is called "Numerology." Seeing forty days and nights of the flood, forty years of Essau's age when he married, forty years in the wilderness, forty days of spying out Canaan, forty years of David's reign, forty days of Christ's temptation, forty would-be assassins of Paul, etc. as somehow connected, is a leap of speculation. Scripture simply does not connect these things. Nor does it attribute significance to the measures as anything but quantities. We can only associate meaning with numbers (or colors) when Scripture actually explains their significance. Anything else is simply a matter of speculation on the part of the interpreter. When that happens, there is no objective standard to which the interpreter must submit their interpretation. Consequently, they have -- how ever unintentionally -- set themselves above the authority of the Word. In Him, Doc |
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2 | 40 in the bible | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 175270 | ||
Hi Doc, Numerology seems to have a somewhat different meaning that what you have stated. According to the American Heritage Dictionary Numerology is: "The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed influence on human life." According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica Numerology is: "the use of numbers to interpret a person's character or to divine the future. The theory behind numerology is based on the Pythagorean idea that all things can be expressed in numerical terms because they are ultimately reducible to numbers." Wikipedia elaborates with: "Numerology is the pseudoscience that studies the purported mystical or esoteric relationship between numbers and the character or action of physical objects and living things. Numerology and numerological divination were popular among early mathematicians such as Pythagoras, but are no longer considered to be part of modern-day mathematics and are now regarded as pseudomathematics by most mathematicians. Numerologists often apply distinct definitions to individual digits. These definitions and the resulting permutations between individual digits, or in a mathematical equation, will result in multi-fold meanings." I can see your misunderstanding this in that we are saying that there appear to be certain associations with certain numbers, but that's as far as it goes. So while we sometimes notice trends and patterns in the way certain numbers are used in the Bible, we do not, generally speaking, attempt to use this understanding to influence or control the created universe. Nor, when we notice that, say, 7 seems to be often associated with completeness, that we are going to turn the words into their numerical equivalants, in order to find some hidden message, or derive some occult power. We're not trying to fortune-tell, or cast spells, practice divination, nor are we trying to claim to be more authoratative than Scripture. Personally, I find the suggestion somewhat ridiculous. It's just one of those things, "we couldn't help but notice." A non-numerical example of this is the similarity between "How Isaac got his wife", and "How Christ got the Church". The father sends his un-named servant to a foreign land, to seek a bride for his son. The servant obtains the agreement of the bride-to-be, because she is to be a willing bride, and upon her agreement, gives her gifts. Then after a bit of time, he takes her back to be wed to the son. The son meets her part-way, where they meet for the first time, and live happily ever after. Stated in the Scriptures as a type? No. But which story did I tell, Isaac and Rebecca, or Jesus and the Church? We couldn't help but notice the similarity. Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | 40 in the bible | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 175272 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, It is a matter of degree rather than a matter of kind. Hank expressed it well in post #174918. Human minds are good at seeing patterns. But even in things like typology, we can only assert a type when Scripture grants us the authority. In Him, Doc "Scripture has one meaning -- the meaning which it had in the mind of the Prophet or Evangelist who first uttered or wrote, to the hearers or readers who first received it. Scripture should be interpreted like any other book and the later accretions and venerated traditions surrounding its interpretation should, for the most part, either be brushed aside or severely discounted. The true use of interpretation is to get rid of interpretation, and leave us alone in company with the author." --Benjamin Jowett (1859) |
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4 | 40 in the bible | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 175275 | ||
Perhaps you might reread my post to see if I asserted typology. As you asserted numerology, I just thought that I would share what numerology actually was, and to show that this is not it. Seeing a pattern in how things are written in Scripture is not numerology, no, not even a little bit. Nor do I have some "fetish" about numbers. Its good when you can say with assurance and accuracy that you are truly stating that which was in fact the original intention of the Author. Did He, or did He not intend to include these patterns? (that's rhetorical - I already know your answer!) But remember, contrary to the words of Ben Jowett, not all Scripture is necessarily confined to the meaning contained in the mind of the prophet that uttered it. Consider such passages as Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and I called My Son out of Egypt." Matthew lets us know this was a prophecy of Jesus, but did Hosea know that? You'd be hard pressed to make that case. What did the prophets know? Who can say? I suppose those who want to bolster their interpretations would equally claim them to be "true to the Bible, and true to the Bible-writers". Not a surprise. Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | 40 in the bible | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 175292 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, "A rose by any other name." Since reassertion is a mechanism that appears, by your use, to be of value to you, permit me to reassert: "There are, simply put, some things that don't go together well and would be better kept apart, things like numerology and Scripture, for example. We of Study Bible Forum have been exposed to some 'biblical numerology' theories -- largely of the crack-pot genre -- and we have come to discourage this sort of thing on the grounds that it is not usually didactic, never edifying, and frequently arcane and confusing. By and large, when the Bible mentions a number, it is for the purpose of communicating quantity. Rarely do numbers in Scripture do anything more than simply to enumerate persons, places, or things. But there have been books written on biblical numerology, presumably by persons who loved to play guessing games and could think of no more fruitful ways to spend their time than by indulging their fetish about numbers." --Hank Following the rabbit trail regarding prophesy: "In spite of the popular aphorism that 'the prophets wrote better than they knew,' the prophet's self-understanding of their prophecies is exhibited by their awareness of (1) the results of their words, (2) the implications of their prophecies, (3) the knowledge of things that were humanly impossible, and (4) the relation that contemporary events and circumstances had with future events in the same series of happenings." --Dr. Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. Brother Mark, you are free to believe what you will. However, I am not obligated to embrace the sagacity of such beliefs. Is the decease equine sufficiently tenderized? Or shall we go for another round of reassertions and/or rabbit trails? :-) In Him, Doc |
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6 | 40 in the bible | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 175304 | ||
Since you are basically jsut restated your same views while re-defining mine, I don't see where there is any benefit in continuing this discussion. I shall consider this a closed subject between us. And please, you never need to project values onto me to justify your actions. Love in Christ, Mark |
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