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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Created for heaven or hell? | 2 Pet 3:9 | proorizo | 11180 | ||
Hello JVH0212, Thank you for your response! _______________________________________________ This is surely the most popular passage cited (almost never with any reference to the context) to “prove” that God could not possibly desire to save a specific people but instead desires to save every single individual person, thereby denying election and predestination. The text seems inarguably clear, but it is always good to see a text in its own context: Please read 2 Peter 3:3-13: Immediately one should see that unlike passages such as Ephesians 1, Romans 8-9, or John 6, this passage is not talking about salvation as its topic. The reference to “coming to repentance” in 3:9 is made in passing. The topic is the coming of Christ. But the next thing that stands out to me is the clear identification of the audience to which Peter is speaking. When speaking of the mockers he refers to them in the third person as “them”. But everywhere else he speaks to his audience as the “beloved” and “you”, and that this audience should behave “in holy conduct and godliness”, and that they look for the day of the Lord. Peter includes himself in verse 13, where we “look for new heavens and a new earth”. This is vitally important, for the assumption made by the person looking to insert freewill here, is that when verse 9 says the Lord is “longsuffering to us-ward” that this us-ward refers to everyone. How they conclude this, I don’t know. Likewise, then, when it says “not willing that any should perish” but that “all should come to repentance”, it is assumed that the “any” and “all” refers to anyone at all of the human race. Yet, the context indicates that the audience is quite specific. In any other passage of Scripture the interpreter would realize we must decide who the “us-ward” refers to and use this to limit the “any” and “all” of verse 9. For some reason, this simple and fundamental necessity is overlooked when this passage is cited. 2 Peter 1:1-3 tells us the specific identity of the audience to which Peter is writing: 2 Peter 1:1-3: 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Peter writes to a specific group, not to all of mankind. “To them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” This not only refers to faith as a gift, but it surely limits the context to the saved, ‘cause they received this faith “through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” There is nothing in chapter 3 that indicates a change in audience, and much to tell us the audience remains exactly the same. Since this is so, it becomes quite clear that the person wanting to insert freewill here, is badly misusing this passage by ignoring what Peter is really saying. The longsuffering of the Lord is displayed toward His elect people (the “you” of verse 9). Therefore, the “not willing that any should perish” must be limited to the same group already in view (the elect). In the same way, the “all should come to repentance” must be the very same group. So, in essence Peter is saying the coming of the Lord has been delayed so that all the elect of God can be gathered in. There is no reason to expand the context of the passage into a universal proclamation of a desire on God’s part that every single person come to repentance. Instead it is clearly His plan and His will that all the elect come to repentance, and they most assuredly will do so! _______________________________________________ Thanks again, talk to you soon, proorizo |
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2 | Created for heaven or hell? | 2 Pet 3:9 | retxar | 11189 | ||
Good fishing proorizo! I think you got a bite! 1Jo 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. |
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3 | Created for heaven or hell? | 2 Pet 3:9 | proorizo | 11260 | ||
Thank you, I'm not much of a fisherman, but it's fun trying. :-) You had quoted 1 John 2:2, and I would ask have you ever considered the many uses of the word world? The Greek word for world is "kosmos" which means orderly arrangement. If Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world in the context in which you have insinuated, then why is Jesus "not praying for the world" in John 17:9? How about John 12:19 that says "the world has gone after Him", does this mean every individual that ever lived or will live went after Jesus at that time? Of course not, we should let the words speak for themselves in the context in which they are being used. Listen to the song sang in Revelation 5:9: "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." This is the "world" that Jesus attoned for. Let me ask you, did Jesus die for the many who will live eternally in Hell? If so, Jesus died for many, many sins for no reason, and also God will require a double payment for these peoples sins, first Jesus' payment, then their own payment which will be eternal seperation. I will let you think on these things and will wait for a response. Thanks again for taking the time to write. proorizo |
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4 | Created for heaven or hell? | 2 Pet 3:9 | retxar | 11283 | ||
If you notice I only supplied a verse, not commentary. I did not state my position. This speaks well of the power of the Word alone. You are not discarding anything I said, only the Word itself. Please re-examine your motives. In Christ Jesus, retxar |
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5 | Created for heaven or hell? | 2 Pet 3:9 | proorizo | 11292 | ||
I examined the question I gave, and the Scripture reference you gave and put 2 and 2 together, since there was only a short "fishing" comment, and a Scripture reference, I thought it wise to comment on the Scripture reference. So please, let me examine your motives, if there was one. I don't understand your "discarding the Word" comment. Help me to examine your motives, or how bout this, lets talk about what you have claimed I am discarding. If I offended you some how, please forgive me, I can only go with the information you give. So, what were you trying to say when you put the Scripture reference? Thank you for your time. proorizo |
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6 | Created for heaven or hell? | 2 Pet 3:9 | Makarios | 11305 | ||
Greetings again, proorizo, I can clearly discern that it is obvious that you do not understand this Forum's history. I actually looked through all ten of your posts, and you have not convinced me that you have taken the effort to see or understand the viewpoints that have already been well stated here, regarding the debate that you are just itching to fight! :) Yes, you have the 'same old questions', my friend, that is quite clear! :) If you are looking for a fight, then you should go elsewhere, because it would be a waste of this Forum's time to respond or engage in any of your 'preconceived' new ideas that you think that you can bring to the table on this topic that has already been well addressed by this Forum. And you cannot play the idiot and think that I do not know which topic that you and I am referring to. :) I refuse to debate or discuss this topic with you since I know well your position and where you are coming from. However, I will not 'leave you alone', my friend. I will not address this topic with you anymore until you have seen and read every single one of the posts on this Forum that deal with the fight that you are trying to pick. Believe me, I will know if you are bringing up anything 'new' or not, and your intentions are proven when you post the same question twice in a row, my friend! :) Are you a troublemaker looking for trouble? I, for one, will see to it that your 'damage' will be minimal, my friend. The last thing that this Forum needs is another debate/discussion such as the one that you are proposing, and I am making every effort here to WARN you to stop. Take my advice and show yourself to be peaceful. Nolan |
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