Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | EdB | 225436 | ||
I have been pondering 1 Cor. 10:14-22 for a while and I wanted some other takes on it. In this passage Paul is teaching on staying away from Idolatery. As you know eating food sacrificed to idols was one of the three prohibitions given to the gentiles by the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15:29. In the 1 Cor passage Paul in his warning to not get involved with idols uses the analogy to communion. In it Paul is saying eating food offered to idols brings us into the similar relationship with demons just as taking communion does with Christ. The Greek word Koinonia used here means communion, partaker, or to form a partnership. I guess you are wondering where I'm going with all of this. Well in Protestant church we view communion as ceremony of rememberance. This is based mostly on 1 Cor. 11:25 nowever this passage in 1 Cor 10:14-22 infers a much deeper meaning of communion. Just as eating food sacrificed to idols puts the eater into a relationship with demons, taking communion puts the participant into a relationship with Christ. It is this relationship and what really transpires in our spiritual lives when we take communion is something I think has been grossly overlooked or at least not fully taught. To the early church all indications are that the act we now call communion had a much richer, much fuller, much more important meaning. In fact Paul in 1 Cor 11:27 warns aboout taking of Communion in an unworthy manner. Many claim this means with unconfessed sin but I when read in connection with 1 Cor. 10:14-22 I now believe it means in an ignorant or manner where we don't realize the full significance of the action. Thoughts????? |
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2 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | DocTrinsograce | 225448 | ||
Dear EdB, I think the passage you are asking about (1 Corinthians 10) is not asserting some kind of spiritual connection that is effected when a person eats food offered to idols. Now, considering the historical context: Certainly the Corinthians were a people struggling with their Christian identity in a very religious world. Had we the opportunity to have walked the streets of Corinth, I suspect that that idolatry would have been obvious to us -- just as it might be to us today to walk the streets of cities in India. However, living and having been raised in that context, might make things a lot less clear. The ancient Corinthian were just beginning to navigate those waters. They did not have the benefit of the history of the church that we enjoy. I have friends, for example, who are Chinese. They live in a unique cultural context that gives rise to many of these questions every day. The celebration of holidays, exercising traditional practices, and steering clear of ancient superstition involves quite a bit of thought. There are some things that we would find as things to obviously eschew, but when they do that, they my easily offend neighbors and family. Of course, that assumes that they even recognize some of those things. The fish is often last to notice the water. Look at our own culture and how we deal with Christmas. It is not easy to know clearly how we should live. That there is no supernatural activity involved here is further evidenced by Paul's words in vv24-25. I think the clear message in this passage is to live your faith clearly as a believer and distinct from the world (v21). Don't blur the lines. Be diligent to seek your neighbor's good, ahead of your own (vv24, 33). Furthermore, be sensitive to the conscience of others (v29). Don't go out of your way to brashly display your liberty and bring offense to Greeks, Jews, or even brethren in the church (v32). Finally, I don't think there is some sort of "deeper meaning of communion." When we participate in this ordinance of Christ, we are picturing the gospel. In fact, even in churches that have lost the clear preaching of Christ, there is a sense in which the gospel is pictured when they partake. Now, of course, this picture requires further explanation -- that's what preaching the Word is all about. I think you will clearly see that the same can be said of the ordinance of baptism: it pictures the gospel, but also must be clarified with explanation. Now, does eating the little, piece of bread, drinking the little cup of grape juice, or being washed in water actually effect anything? No, those are physical activities. (We do not do things in the natural and expect supernatural results -- that is what is called magic, something that we are commanded to avoid.) To the unbeliever they are nothing and accomplish nothing. Nevertheless, I think scripture is clear that these ordinances are means of grace for believers; for to the believer, they are a matter of congregational obedience in the church. They are expressions to the church and to our Lord that we submit to and identify with the gospel, wholly and actively and continually. Yes, I agree with you that the modern church often takes these things for granted, or even obscures their significance. But then, the modern church can hardly articulate the gospel. People in ignorance or in error concerning the fundamental doctrines of law and gospel, certainly cannot be expected to find richness and fuller meaning in the ordinances of the church. In Him, Doc |
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3 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | EdB | 225455 | ||
I think your answer completely ignores the full meaning of the word Koinonia that is used in the passage. If that word in kept in mind and then applied to where Paul used it in reference to idols and again in Paul's analogy to communion the implications are much greater than you stated. Further if we view what we call communion as the covenant meal required in setting in place of a blood covenant we see the covenant meal partakers (there is that word again Koinonia) as being bound by the covenant. Yes it is physical thing but many many physical things have spiritual realities if we consider prayer, worship, baptism and I believe communion. Is it magic? I don't think magic is the right word to describe a physical event that sets a spiritual reality into motion. Just some additional thoughts on the subject. |
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4 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | DocTrinsograce | 225483 | ||
Dear EdB, Please read back through my message. I think you missed my points; as evidenced by your countering points which I did not make. Yes, however, I purposely ignored the "full meaning of the word Koinenia" as the presuppositions used in asking the question were errant. It was those presuppositions that I was seeking to redress. In Him, Doc |
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5 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | EdB | 225489 | ||
With all due respect the presuppositions that you infer are errant are based on the meaning of the word koinenia. Your response never speaks to the meaning of word koinenia. You simply take the stance that communion is physical activity that doesn't perform any magic. To me that answer is simply ignoring the fact that many physical activities have spiritual consequences both good and bad. If you don't want to explore the full meaning of koinenia and all that it is entails fine but don't poopoo the question as being based on errant persuppositions. There has to be more to it than just a physical activity or Paul would have never used the analogy comparing partaking of food offered to idols with partaking of the bread and wine of communion. I believe grasping the full meaning of the word koinenia is important to understand what Paul is saying. |
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6 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | DocTrinsograce | 225498 | ||
Dear EdB, If our presuppositions are not open to analysis by one another, how shall we then come to agreement in our exegesis? As one of your own has pointed out (Dr. Gordon D. Fee) a sound interpretation requires the involvement of the reader as well as the author. He warns of what he calls "selective exegesis." That is, when we "...read one's own, completely foreign, ideas into a text and thereby make God's Word something other than what God really said" (How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, page 24). He goes on to say, "To avoid making such mistakes one needs to learn to think exegetically, that is, to begin back then and there and to do so with every text." I did not intend to "poopoo" your question. I simply could not begin to answer it without first dealing with the presuppositions. That's how I was taught. It is modeled in the teaching of Christ and the apostles. I do not know of any way to honor our Lord, save in the way in which He has led us in the truth. In Him, Doc |
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7 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | EdB | 225502 | ||
Why are we talking about my presuppositions? Let us talk about Paul's use the word Koinonia, its meaning and why would Paul use basically the same word when contrasting two acts one desireable and one forbidden. This is not a supposition it is fact the meaning of the word Koinonia reaches far deeper than communion for rememberance sake. Early Christians were well aware of the decision to prohibit eating food offered to idols. Yet Paul clearly states to do so is to partake or fellowship with demons. I made no presuppositions I pointed out an analogy made by Paul between a prohibited act and one we are told to partake in. For the analogy to be valid and meaningful there had to be more to the partaking of communion than mere rememberance of Christ. |
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8 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | DocTrinsograce | 225509 | ||
Dear Edb, You wrote, "I made no presuppositions I pointed out an analogy made by Paul between a prohibited act and one we are told to partake in. For the analogy to be valid and meaningful there had to be more to the partaking of communion than mere rememberance of Christ." (sic) One cannot think, speak, hear, understand, etc. without presuppositions. Regardless, in a continuing amicable, calming, and placating effort: Paul uses the word koinonos five times. It simply means to share or partner with another. Check the other references and see if there is some kind of "deeper" sense in which he uses it. Protestantism takes a very broad view of communion. Not all protestants hold to the symbolic memorialist position that you are eschewing. That certainly marks one extreme of protestantism; the other extreme, held by our more liturgical brethren, retain a perspective much closer to the Papists. In other words, not every protestant is Zwinglian in their view of communion: Calvinists are not, Lutherans are not, and Anglicans are not, Historic Baptists are not. As I stated in post #225448, I agree that communion is more "than mere rememberance of Christ" (sic). However, 1 Corinthians 10:20, cannot bear the weight of that doctrine on its own; let alone granting the word koinonos some sort of mysterious meaning than the word warrants. I think that we might agree, however, that the 10th and 11th chapters of 1 Corinthians does much more than imply a non-memorialist perspective of communion. 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 really can bear that doctrinal weight, don't you think? In Him, Doc |
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9 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | EdB | 225518 | ||
You wrote, "Paul uses the word koinonos five times. It simply means to share or partner with another. Check the other references and see if there is some kind of "deeper" sense in which he uses it." And yes I think there is a deeper meaning. If I understand the word correctly and especially in this application there is a much deeper meaning. Koinonos also implies Companionship, Fellowship, of being a Partaker, being a Partner. If we explore the words Companion, Partner and Fellowship they speak of a relationship. In other words eating of the bread and drinking of the wine brings us into relationship with Christ that didn't exist before. There is a real analogy between the covenant meal which is participated in when a blood covenant is cut and the Last Supper. If you study Blood Covenants the participants of the covenant meal actually enter into the covenant even though they were not the covenant makers. In this application Jesus and God cut covenant but all that partake in the covenant meal known as the Last Supper became partakers of that covenant. This process became perpetual when Jesus commanded this meal be eating often. Thus we eat of the covenant meal we are becomming covenant people, partners in the covenant, active participants of the covenant. We are establishing a deeper relationship with Christ and God the Father. You are correct there are many different views of communion but most focus on the process of the act itself or the elements and what are their properties but I think this passage I Cor 10:14-22 takes us past men's bickerings to something many don't grasp. |
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10 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | DocTrinsograce | 225522 | ||
Dear Ed, I agree with your conclusion, without agreeing with your hermeneutic. By the way, I had not realized that Pentecostals held to Covenantalism. I had thought that they held entirely to Dispensationalism. It was good to hear. Now, I would like to share one quote with you: "What is the Lord's supper? "The Lord's supper is a sacrament of the New Testament (Luke 22:20), wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to the appointment of Jesus Christ, His death is showed forth; and they that worthily communicate feed upon His body and blood, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace (Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 11:13-26); have their union and communion with him confirmed (1Corinthians 10:16; testify and renew their thankfulness (1 Corinthians 11:24), and engagement to God (1 Corinthians 10:14-16, 21) and their mutual love and fellowship each with other, as members of the same mystical body (1 Corinthians 10:17)." (Westminster Larger Catechism, question 168) I thought that the agreement with you of those "bickering" men might be of interest. In Him, Doc |
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11 | The significance of Communion | 1 Cor 10:14 | EdB | 225540 | ||
Doc I was looking not for agreement but rather discussion. Of the full meaning of Koinonia and what transpired spiritually when we took communion. I think the referenced quote from the Westminister Confession is excellent, however I'm trying to flesh out the "to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace." That is a major part of Koinonia and something I see rarely if ever brought into focus. |
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