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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Ordo Salutis Answers to Mark's Verses | Rom 8:30 | mark d seyler | 172598 | ||
Hi Doc, Thank you for the refresher! It's the point you claim of regeneration coming before repentance that I am especially interested in. Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, Joh 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. (LITV) Thank you for explaining you view of this passage. I think I understand what you are saying. In your analysis, you have placed “were born of God” chronologically before “became children of God”. I look at being “born of God” as how we “become children of God.” So I think therein lies our difference in understanding. Are you aware of any passage in Scripture that I may be overlooking that tells us that second birth actually precedes our adoption? For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10) Again, thank you for your explanation of how you understand this passage. It seems that you do not consider it to be making a definitive statement of the order of salvation since the main purpose of the Holy Spirit at this time is not instructing in the doctrines of salvation, but rather regarding the correction of the Church. I can’t imagine the Holy Spirit writing in such a misleading manner as to indicate, even in the course of speaking on another subject, that something was a way that it actually wasn’t. So even though that was not God’s primary subject in this portion of Scripture, I tend to hold that every word should be taken with full seriousness, even those that might seem to be secondary. Can you point me to a “prescriptive” Scripture that tells us that we are to be regenerated before we repent? Act 16 28 But Paul called out with a loud voice, saying, Do no harm to yourself! For we are all here. 29 And asking for lights, he rushed in. And becoming trembly, he fell before Paul and Silas. 30 And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do that I may be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. Once again, thank you for sharing with me your understanding of this. I guess it doesn’t make much sense to me that the jailer was asking how to save his life from the Romans, since Paul had already reassured him that the prisoners were all there, and now the jailer was himself leading them out. It seems to me that they were past that. So Paul answers “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.” This seems a lot different than “If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you have been saved.” Again, why would the Holy Spirit be so misleading if regeneration actually came first? Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19) “Be converted”, while the translators make it sound like a passive verb, is actually an active verb, and as such, we should understand the verse to be instructing us to repent, and be converted – both things that we do. We do these things in order that our sins may be blotted out, as you say, that we may be justified. But “being converted” cannot be regeneration, since it is something that we do. I do not wish to seem ungracious, you have taken the time to do as I asked, and explained the alternative ways you understand these verses. I have to admit that I have some difficulties as I have written above. But I truly do appreciate your taking the time and effort for me. Thank you! Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Ordo Salutis Answers to Mark's Verses | Rom 8:30 | DocTrinsograce | 172672 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, As asked, I've rendered up alternative interpretations of these passages. The interpretations I offered can be confirmed as being rooted in sound exegesis by checking with a variety of commentators. You asked, "Can you point me to a 'prescriptive' Scripture that tells us that we are to be regenerated before we repent?" I guess I'd have to answer no in the same way that I'd answer no to the question, "Can you point out a black dog that is white." Perhaps definitions are in order again: Descriptive language deals with the state of things. Prescriptive language deals with what ought to be done to attain a given state. One describes, the other prescribes. Here is an example: "Joe told a lie." (Descriptive) "Joe should tell the truth." (Prescriptive) John 3:16 is descriptive. Mark 1:15 is prescriptive. Much error is rooted in the confusion of the two. Back to my studies... its late... at least for me. In Him, Doc |
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