Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | JCrichton | 121548 | ||
Hi, Ray! We have to look at Thomas' comment in light of Jesus previous response (John 11:1-6) and the peril which awaited Jesus (and consequently his disciples) in Judea (John 11:8). At this particular moment in the disciples' fellowship they were not completely devoted to the cause. True they followed Jesus and were eager to learn from Him, but there were as human as we are with all the doubts and incredulousness as we have. Their one certainty was that Jesus had been threatened with physical harm (imprisonment or death) and they, as His disciples, would be subjected to the same reception. Thomas, being true to his name, spoke in human understanding--if we go now since Lazarus is dead, what are we to gain but death at the hand of those who are persecuting Jesus?--disclaimer: my words on his thoughts; there is no Biblical passage that makes this statement! The people seeking Jesus to cause Him harm did not act in front of witnesses for they feared the repercussion their action would have as the many followers of Christ would no doubt turn on them in a violent rage. Traveling by day light would asure Jesus and His disciples some safety (John 11:9-10). Courage comes in different forms... Peter vs. the other disciple, which one was more courageous?: Superficially it would seem like the other disciple was the most courageous since he did not deny Jesus. But when we look deeper into the event we find that Peter was an unknown character who resembled those who were seen with Jesus, and, to his detriment, he was from Galilee (Matthew 26:69)--as we know there are various distinctions among the various residents of the US (speech, manerisms...); these distinctions are geographical at times. So Peter would standout amongst non-Galileans! On the other hand, the other disciple who just walked right through the main entrance and paraded about nonchalantly had a history with the people and the place (John 18:15-16). Logic dictates that Peter was at risk while the other disciple had no reason to fear the people around him. This said, we know that the disciples accompanied Jesus to Lazarus' grave and did witness Lazarus resurrection--not only the disciples but also many followers (John 11:14-15, 43-45); consequenty Lazarus became a secondary target for the religious elite (John 12:10-11). As their desire to "get Jesus" grew so did their efforts to control Jesus followers; so it is logical that fear grew in the hearts and minds of the disciples, and the followers at large. Today, we do not face the same persecution. Today's persecution is insidiously subtle since it does not always attack Christ directly and since much of it is being done from within the "Christian" culture. It has not escalated to the point of Christ's disciples fearing death on the count of the Holy Name of Christ (at least not in the US--yet). But the assaults are getting more and more constant and more and more abrasive while Christians are becoming more and more complacent: we are allowing society to dictate what Jesus commandments mean and how and where we can witness to Christ! Honor the Lord your God, it is not an option! Thou shall not kill, it is not an option! Living an immoral life and teaching others that God's ok with it, it is not Biblical! Being a friend to the world, it is being an enemy of God! So, Ray, have we, as Christians, failed Jesus?, did we leave Him on the garden?, do we deny Jesus when society demands that we comform the Bible to "modern ways?" Sadly, I have witness this from too many "Christians" who have allowed the world to defile Jesus' Word! Just look at the ordination of women and homosexuals into the priesthood... look at the unchallenged education that society is giving to the next generation of "Christians!" It is not enough to recognize the Light and claim to be of the Light; we must Live in the Light! God Bless! Angel God |
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2 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | Ray | 121590 | ||
Hi JCrichton, Your good thoughts and observations are appreciated. I would like to express more of where I am coming from in my questions. 1) You give references of John 11:14-15, 43-45 as saying that the disciples witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus. However the verses do not say that they went with Him although He is encouraging them to go. Verse 17 says only that "So when Jesus came,..." There is no mention of the disciples from verse 17 on until verse 54 where it says that Jesus went to a city called Ephraim and there He stayed with the disciples. The Jews of verse 45 were the Jews of verse 19, and 31 who had come to console Mary and Martha. So I would say that the Scriptures do not say that the disciples went with Him. However, it would be difficult to understand how or why the disciples would not go with Him if He was encouraging them to. That leads me to a suggested way of interpretting the passage so that it would be an open decision for the disciples to go or not to go. I am offering for consideration a capitalization of "Us" for Jesus only speaking about Himself. John 11:7, "Let Us go to Judea again." John 11:11, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go, that I might waken him out of sleep." John 11:15, "and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let Us go to him." Thus there are the pronouns of Us, Our, and Us. What is that called, the King's English? Verse 16, "Thomas therefore, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us [also] go, even we, that we may die with Him." This to my mind would be glorifying to our triune God. However, it would only be penciled in my copy for now. What do you think? From the heart, Ray |
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3 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | JCrichton | 121609 | ||
Hi, Ray! I am kind of a stickler when it comes to Jesus' words... I don't believe that Jesus said things just to appease or give invitations. When teaching the disciples (12) He separated them from the crowds... I cannot see them, with the exception of Judas and Thomas, refusing to follow Jesus' lead... There was that moment of flight/fight which Peter addressed by cutting off an ear... once it was made clear that they were not to use violence... shum! So when Jesus invites them to go with Him, in my mind, they went! Had the disciples refused to go with Jesus, would it not provide a choice morsel of news to record for posterity? Their flight from the garden was recorded--even that of the young man covered in the blanket! Using the "Us" for Jesus only would, in my opinion, nullify both the purpose of Jesus' reluctance to go at once to Lazarus side, and His consequent statement on verse 15. "Us" objective case; "Our" adjective (possessive)--other than that I have no other knowledge. "This to my mind would be glorifying to our triune God." Are you referring to the term "Us/Our" in reference to Jesus or are you speaking in terms of Lazarus' resurrection? God Bless! Angel |
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4 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | Ray | 121793 | ||
Hi Angel, The use of the "royal we", (the Us, Our, and Us) that I had penciled in my copy, is not something I would argue too much for, but that is what I spoke of earlier as being possibly glorifying to our triune God. It would be similar to Genesis 1:26, (three Us pronouns). I do not have "Let Us" penciled in any more most of all because it would cause inconsistencies with other verses such as John 14:31, "Arise, let us go from here." 2) May I offer another suggestion that I would "pencil in" instead of the "royal We"? It would relate to the second question that I started the thread with, "Would we, even we, His disciples follow Him if it meant possibly death?" There are three occurances in the passage which in the NASB talk about THE disciples. They are found in John 11:7, 8, and 12. Would you be open to the possibility of recognizing that they were His disciples instead of only "THE disciples"? From the heart, Ray |
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5 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | JCrichton | 121819 | ||
Hi, Ray! I think that for many of us that (following Jesus even at the risk of death) would be the ultimate test... and, though we have an advantage over Jesus' contemporaries, I think that many of today's "disciples" will not act accordingly; but will fail to choose to follow Him. I say this because it is evident by Christiandom's reluctance to be doers of the Word, and its readyness to embrace most any cultural adulteration of Jesus' Word! There was once some one who said that "for evil to prosper good men have but to do nothing." (Paraphrased as best as I remembered.) John 11:7, 8, and 12... Some Bible versions have "his" in 7 and 12 instead of "the." I would agree with you that in these verses as well as many others the tone is that of an inner circle... there seems to be some intimacy or familiarity that the general discipleship would not have with the Master or Rabbi. Even in today's society this is verifiable... While in high school I was involved with the performing arts... though the class or after-school groups were seldom under 40 students there was always an inner circle that clicked in an intimate/familiar manner while the rest were most always left out; mind you I do not mean it in todays abominable fashion of "clicks/inner ciercle"--I am talking about an inner group that put the extra effort into all of our activities, and would financially support the effort, rather than spend frivolously... so it would be a natural occurrance that we would enjoy each other company and spend intimate moments (dinners, picnics, movies...). I understand this to be a factor in Jesus' Twelve and the other disciples... I am not limiting Jesus' inner circle to the Twelve; rather I am saying that the Twelve would most assuredly be with Him, as they say today, "24/7." God Bless! Angel |
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6 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | Ray | 121854 | ||
Hi Angel, I appreciate your openness and the sharing of yourself that you have done on the forum. Your mentioning of a click in which the rest were almost always left out is really in reference to the lack of desire to be as involved as you and the inner circle were involved. The others were not "excluded" per se, but the committment would not have been there. Webster: clique, a small, exclusive circle of people; snobbish or narrow coterie Your group then and the twelve disciples also, were a close-knit inner group but were not keeping anyone out of activities and the general program. They were not "exclusive" as in the Webster definition. It is when we think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think, and think of ourselves as "The Group" or even "The Church" that we should do some reevaluating. As one who looks at capitalization, I will comment on your stress of the Twelve by using the upper case T. It is in that sense that we can think of the disciples and ourselves more highly than we ought. It is one thing for me to consider Jesus saying among Himself, "Let Us go to him" (Lazarus). John 11:15. It would be quite another if I wanted to also interpret verse 16 concerning Thomas and [his] fellow disciples as saying "Let Us go, even We, that We may die with Him." So I am saying that even though we all might sometimes put stress on a word by using an upper-case letter we should beware lest we think more highly of the word used than we ought to think. Be that as it may, and please excuse my fetish for capitalization, I agree with you that the twelve disciples, would most assuredly would want to be with Him. I would think also that Lazarus is their friend as well as the friend of Jesus. 3) I would also like to talk about the third part of my question for this thread. Is Jesus the Light of the world? I would say that we also, even we, are to be lights in the world. Would you capitalize the "Light" of the world in John 11:9,10? From the heart, Ray |
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7 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | JCrichton | 121877 | ||
"your stress of the Twelve by using the upper case T" Hi, Ray! When I write I tend to emphasize God's (the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit) Divinity by capitalizing words that deal directly with Him. The Twelve are emphasized to designate their separation for Christ. This, at least in my mind, in no manner or fashion elevates them to anything other than belonging to Christ! So you will notice that I will capitalize words relating to God or defining God: i.e.: Salvation, Grace, Love, Light, Life, Resurrection, Cross... "Would you capitalize the "Light" of the world in John 11:9,10?" I would only capitalize John 11:10 because Jesus is presenting a duality: light of day--natural preference of travalers vs. being in the Light--the Light of the world: Jesus Christ! As we know, the Light came to the world and the darkness did not defeat it! This particular verse, John 11:10, is reminiscent of Peter's experience while walking on water--only when Peter began to focus on the creature rather than the Creator did he failed: Jesus is the Light so as long as we are in the Light the darkness cannot harm us! God Bless! Angel |
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8 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | Ray | 121922 | ||
Hi Angel, I believe that we are in agreement concerning capitalizing both "Light" words in John 11:9,10. This is my understanding of your sentence structure, and please correct me if I misunderstand you. I hear you saying: "I would capitalize both occurances. I would capitalize John 11:10, however, only because Jesus is presenting a duality..." Thank you for your thoughts. You bring up another Scripture in your post concerning "Light" when you wrote, "As we know, the Light came to the world and the darkness did not defeat it!" You had in mind John 1:5 but you combined it with another verse. Thus, I would not agree with that sentence. John 1:5 says the darkness did not comprehend, overpower, apprehend, grasp it; and the light still shines (present tense) in the darkness. I would suggest that God is not an "it". So I believe that John 1:5 is speaking of the light [sic] coming from the Light of men, the Light of the world. Verse 9, the true Light who came into the world gives light to every man, enlightening him. John 11:4, "...that the Son of God may be glorified by *it." John 1:9, He was the true Light which, coming into the world, gives *light to every man. God bless you, Angel. From the heart, Ray |
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9 | US go... even we, the disciples? | John 11:6 | JCrichton | 121928 | ||
"Thank you for your thoughts. You bring up another Scripture in your post concerning "Light" when you wrote, "As we know, the Light came to the world and the darkness did not defeat it!" You had in mind John 1:5 but you combined it with another verse. Thus, I would not agree with that sentence." Hi, Ray! I am was not quoting but summarizing... I should have typed "Him" instead of "it"--I can only blame the speed of thought verses context: Jesus is God so He can never be "it;" grammatically, Light is a pronoun (reflexive I think) that must agree with the noun that is being modified (Jesus), so again it should be "Him" not "it." Thank you for your correction. God Bless! Angel |
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