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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | mark d seyler | 166066 | ||
Matthew 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Is this the same gathering prophesied by Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others? Jeremiah 31 10 Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock." 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob And redeemed him from the hand of him who was stronger than he. Isaiah 27 12 In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. 13 It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. Isaiah 11 11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. 12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations, And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Why or Why Not? Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | lionheart | 166067 | ||
Hey Mark, Godbless you buddy. I will answer a question with a question here. The OT does speak of the return of the Isrealites to Isreal and I believe that is part of Gods plan for us. My question here regarding Matthew 24:31 is as things stand today are we not all Gods elect ( Jew and gentile who confess Christ as Lord and Savior.)? So could we be talking about all believers and not just Isreal? In Christ, lionheart |
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3 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | mark d seyler | 166069 | ||
Hi Lionheart, Let me answer your question to answer my question with a question. :-) There is the elect which is Israel. There is the elect which is the Church. Which of these would Jesus' audience, as He gave this lesson, understand Him to be speaking of? We know that in the Church, there is "neither Greek nor Jew" (Col 3). Therefore, if Israel were to be counted in as a part of the Church, it would lose it's national identity, and would be known as the Church, since national identities don't exist within the Church. But that leaves us with the OT prophecies of Israel being regathered into the land. When the Bible tells of the gathering of the Church, we are gathered to Christ, to be with Him. So on the one hand, the Church is gathered to Jesus, on the other, the Jews are gathered to Israel. Do these seem like the same events? Is there any scripture that might identify both groups and both actions being included in one event? Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | MJH | 166082 | ||
Personal thoughts only....I haven't studies it so this is somewhat of a guess. Jesus (as He almost always does) is speaking about something found in the first 39 books of the Bible. Here I think Jesus is referring to the passages you quoted, but his use of the word "elect" rather than Israel broadens the meaning to include the Gentiles who would believe. His audience would most certainly have understood him to mean the elect Israel, and they would have know of the passages he was quoting. Personally I see Israel still as a separate elect chosen group of people for whom God has plans (ie. I'm no longer a "replacement theology" adherent.) But I also believe we are all going to be with the Lord in the New Jerusalem in the World to Come. MJH |
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5 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | mark d seyler | 166100 | ||
Hi MJH, Thank you for your thoughts. The reason I am asking this question is because I have seen a lot of teaching that this verse shows the rapture of the church, although it has occurred to me that Biblically, it seems to align with the gathering of Israel, which I understand to be a separate event from the rapture of the church. I am looking for Biblical evidence that will show conclusively that either this event encompasses both, or only one, and if one, which one. You bring up another point which I think is worthy of consideration. I have been taught that Israel's inheritance is the earth, and the church are citizens of the New Jerusalem. So I need to determine it that is Scripturally founded, and perhaps you can help me there. One thing I just looked up, is that in the Septuagint, where we read "chosen", refering to Israel in the KJV OT, it is translated as "eklektos", the same word used in Matt. 24:31. So in the Greek Old Testament, Israel was commonly called the "elect", which is really the same as chosen. I expect that as Jesus taught them in Hebrew, He would have used the same word as was used by the prophets. I understand Israel to be a separate group, with separate itdentity, and that they will be brought to relationship with God through different means than the Church. While redemption will come through Jesus Christ, there has been a special "Seventieth Week" set aside for the purpose of the redemption of Israel. I would appreciate any further thoughts you may have on this. Love in Christ, Mark |
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6 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | kalos | 166120 | ||
Elect of Matt 24, Christians not Israel '...There are many who would want to exclude Matthew 24 from applying to the Church. They say that Matthew 24 applies only to Israel and has nothing to do with the Church and Christ's return for us. (...) 'There are at least 6 reasons why I believe the Olivet Discourse of Christ not only pertains to the Church, but details events of the end times for which believers are to prepare. Let's examine them. (...) 4. The ones being persecuted in the Olivet Discourse are Christians. 'Jesus tells of a time in the future when all nations will hate his followers. He tells his disciples that they will be persecuted, hated and killed. Why? "On account of My name," He says (Matthew 24:9). ... 'Clearly it is Christians that Jesus is addressing. It is those who are preaching the gospel who will be arrested. It is those who are filled with the Holy Spirit who will be persecuted. This teaching is in accord with numerous Scriptures that tell believers that they will suffer tribulation (John 15:20, 16:33; Acts 14:22; 2 Cor. 1:5; Phil. 1:29; 2 Tim. 3:12; 1 Pet. 2:21). '5. The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians not Israel. 'Jesus speaks of His "elect" several times in Matthew 24: '"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or "There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect… And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." (Matt. 24:22-24, 31) 'Just who are these elect? Some would have us believe that the elect are the Jewish people, and that these warnings and instructions refer to Israel and their gathering together for the Millennial rule of the Messiah. But is this the case? 'Anytime the Greek word eklektos (elect, chosen) is used in the New Testament to speak of individuals it refers to believers in Christ, Jew or Gentile (Matt 20:16; 22:14; Luke 18:7; Rom 8:33; Col 3:12; 2 Tim 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1, 2:9; Rev 17:14). This word never refers to Jews or the nation of Israel. Why should Matthew 24 be any different? It is to these elect, Jesus' disciples, that the warnings of Matthew 24 apply. It is simply not Scriptural to teach that Jesus' words here do not apply to the present-day Church. Jesus' obvious intent is that these warnings be applied to the Church throughout the age, for He provides warnings specifically applicable to His contemporaries as well as those elect/chosen who would be alive at the end of the age, who will see "all these things" take place (Matt. 24:33). '6. Jesus' promise to return in John 14 is the same event. 'Just two days following the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was with His disciples in the upper room, sharing the Passover meal with them and preparing them for His departure. In this context he told them: '"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:1-3). 'Now, how can one honestly say that Jesus’ teaching to His disciples on the Olivet Discourse was to them as representatives of the Jews and about the future of the nation of Israel, but that His teaching to His disciples just two days later was to them as representatives of the Church and about the Church's future? They cannot be referring to two separate events since they were both delivered to the disciples in view of their looking for Christ's coming for them. Clearly both accounts speak of Jesus return for His disciples when He will "receive" us to Himself – "gather together" His elect. 'Jesus warned His disciples to not be deceived about His coming (Matt. 24:4). Paul warned the Thessalonian believers to not be deceived about Jesus' return (2 Thess. 2:3). Let us take these warnings to heart and base our beliefs on the solid Word of God, rather than on the teachings of men.' Quoted from: The Olivet Discourse - For the Church or Israel? Reprinted from eParousia #9, October, 2003 ____________________ www.solagroup.org/articles/ endtimes/ep_0009.html |
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7 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | mark d seyler | 166124 | ||
Hi Kalos, Since the Solagroup bases a large part of their argument on the use of the Greek eklektos, elect, ignoring that this is the Greek counterpart of the same terminology used of Israel in the OT, with this fact authenticated in the Septuagint, I do not find that argument credible. Regarding the use of "eklektos" in the NT, it is used 24 times, not just 10. 6 of those refer to individual persons. Another 4 of those are clearly by context of the church. The remaining 14 uses of "eklektos" are not specifically stated one way or the other, whether the church or Israel, and must be determined by correct understanding of doctrine, and therefore, cannot be used to teach doctrine (this includes these passages in question). Therefore, in my opinion, the NT usage of "eklektos" does not provide a credible argument that this elect "could only be the Church". Notice in Matthew 24, Jesus said His angels will "gather the elect." But in John 14, He said "I will come for you". So in Matthew, Jesus is teaching his disciples about what will happen to the "elect" in the third person, "they", but in John, He is teaching what will happen to those He is speaking to, in the second person, "you", His disciples. I have no disagreement with the generalized applications of Scripture. We can learn from all of it. But we cannot just say that because something is said to happen, it must happen to "me", because otherwise we are saying that a certain scripture doesn't apply to "me", and it all does. National Israel, the Church, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the Seventieth Week martyrs, the Millenial Kingdom "natural" inhabitants, all of these have specific things written about them that do not apply to the other groups, so this is not a valid argument. It seems the more I look at the Solagroup material, the more problems with their presentation I find. Love in Christ, Mark |
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8 | The ingathering of Israel? | Matt 24:31 | kalos | 166127 | ||
Mark: You make some interesting points, especially about the use of the Greek word "eklektos" in the NT. I will certainly consider these points. Grace to you, Kalos |
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