Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | DocTrinsograce | 165145 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, Welcome back from the holidays! I hope they were a blessing for you and your family. There are at least three broad eschatological categories extant today that would answer these questions differently. All three, in my opinion, have some degree of merit. (The fact that one of these perspectives has great mass appeal and generates a lot of money is not, to my way of thinking, where it derives most of its merit.) All three have little to say beyond attempting to interpret apocalyptic prophecies. Consequently they leverage an unhealthy curiosity in people, doing little more than generating a bunch of unsubstantiated hot air, fomenting argument, and encouraging pointless speculation. One might even argue that they burden us with a perspective that interferes with our deriving from these passages the encouragement and instruction that God intends. You asked, "Do you really think that the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and the other books of prophecy, cannot be understood?" Nope, never thought that, never said that. Prophecy, by its very nature, is most clear after it has been fulfilled. I've no doubt we'll all be surprised, Tim and Jerry notwithstanding. I like what Octavius Winslow wrote back in the 1800s, "The declaration that 'our times are in the Lord's hand,' implies that the future of our history is impenetrably and mysteriously veiled from our sight. We live in a world of mysteries. They meet our eye, awaken our inquiry, and baffle our investigation at every step. Nature is a vast arcade of mysteries. Science is a mystery, truth is a mystery, religion is a mystery, our existence is a mystery, the future of our being is a mystery. And God, who alone can explain all mysteries, is the greatest mystery of all. How little do we understand of the inexplicable wonders of a wonder-working God, 'Whose thoughts are a great deep,' and 'Whose ways are past finding out.' "To God nothing is mysterious. In purpose, nothing is unfixed; in forethought, nothing is unknown; in providence, nothing is contingent. His glance pierces the future as vividly as it beholds the past. 'He knows the end, from the beginning.' All His doings are parts of a divine, eternal, and harmonious plan. He may make 'darkness His secret place; His pavilion round about Him dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies,' and to human vision His dispensations may appear gloomy, discrepant, and confused; yet is He, 'working all things after the counsel of His own will,' and 'at the brightness that is before Him, His thick clouds pass.' and all is transparent and harmonious to His eye." Mark, presuppositions are not necessarily bad things. John Hendryx puts it this way, "A presupposition is an ultimate assumption or foundational unquestioned principle which is or assumed to be true in the course of argument for the purpose of making other points. A presupposition is really an undergirding belief that precedes all other beliefs a person has; It is a belief that governs all our other beliefs or the most fundamental commitment of our heart and mind. Each person insists on some ultimate category of thought or conceptual framework which he must assume in order to make a sensible interpretation of reality. All of our arguments are ultimately settled only by appealing to the soundness of our first principles. Unbelievers start with the presupposition that man can be as God in the sense of being his own ultimate authority and erroneously believes he can do so successfully. For Christians we adopt the Word of God to evaluate all other beliefs, and must regard it with certainty. Reason must be the servant of Revelation (God’s Word). It is a view that places the Christian world-view and it’s basic assumptions over against the non-Christian world-view and basic assumptions!" When we use the word "presupposition" we do not necessarily imply anything disparaging. In Him, Doc |
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2 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | mark d seyler | 165185 | ||
Hi Doc, This time with my family has been a blessing indeed! Are you of the opinion that eschatological prophecy can only be correctly understood after it has been fulfilled? And also, just for my clarification, the "presuppositions" you speak of are those that we would have derived from non-prophetic scriptures, that we would then use to interpret prophetic scriptures? Would not these presuppositions then be either correct or incorrect, and so to say "depending on your presuppositions" is to say "depending on if you understand scripture correctly"? One more question, please, is, do you consider the Book of the Revelation to belong in the same literary catagory as the non-biblical genre of Hebrew Apocalyptic Literature? I am seeking to understand where you are coming from on these points. I know that there is a wide range of explanations of the various views that exist, but I am interested in what you think, and so I would ask for you to humor me with simple answers to my questions. God bless! Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | DocTrinsograce | 165189 | ||
Dear Mark, 1. Maybe not "correctly" but "completely." Compare the OT prophecies of Messiah with their fulfillment. No complete understanding was possible until his Ascension. 2. The eschatological perspectives of which I speak include pre-millenialism, post-millenialism, amillenialism, and preterism. Since they do not agree it is logical to assume that any or all of them will be found incorrect. 3. Revelation, in many ways, stands alone as a literary genre. (That also seems true comparing OT narrative and NT narrative.) I'd be loathe to place it in its own category. On the other hand, the reasons for it being written the way it was and the constraints under which it was written are certainly different than any other prophetic writing. Since you ask, my personal leanings are pre-millenial. Revelation has a great deal to say upon which we can firmly stand. Pilotless-airplanes, EU origins of the beast, and micro-chips in the foreheads of consumers, however, are incredibly speculative. As one of my dear professors once said, "Studying the Scriptures is like wading in the ocean. As soon as your feet leave the bottom, get on back closer to shore. Get back to where you can say something definitive." As appealing to human nature as it all is, I don't think it belongs in a serious study of the Word. Did you note how Lionheart put it in his post? Nothing that he said could be construed as speculative. Every statement was well grounded in the Word. Beyond that, He did not conjecture. I'm not uncomfortable with answers when they can be confidently given. Let's just be sure our confidence is on the Scriptures alone. Sorry... I can't ever seem to answer simple questions simply. :-( In Him, Doc |
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4 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | mark d seyler | 165198 | ||
Hi Doc, Thank you for answers I could understand! :-) I agree with you on the first point. I think that we can understand what God is telling us to the point that He does indeed tell us. Certainly there will be more complete understanding by those who are alive during the time in which a prophecy is fulfilled. In the case of Messianic prophecy, I don't think God intended a full understanding. In the case of the Revelation, since it begins with the words "to show His servants what must quickly take place", I think that purpose can be achieved, and that we can know what will happen. On point number 2, I agree that it is logical that of four contradictory views, no more than one can be correct. On number 3, I have no problem placing it in the same grouping as other books of Biblical prophecy. I have heard some teach that it was written in code to hide the true meaning from the Romans, but why, because God was afraid of the Romans? That makes no sense to me. I also agree with you that the speculations of man are meaningless at best, and harmful at worst, as far as who will be the antichrist, and who the ten kings are, and how the mark of the beast will work. We are safe to say that without the mark you will not partake in commerce, but not to say whether it will be a chip or not. It could just as well be drawn with a permanent marker. I will also agree with you that lionheart's post was totally accurate, and not speculative, but on the other hand, it did nothing towards answering the question, when in fact there is an answer available. (No offence, Lionheart! :-) I love you, brother!) Jason originally asked about the week of years. There are a few places in the Bible where a week is used of 7 years, one example being Jacob working for Laban in exchange for Laban's daughters. Gen 29:28 Jacob did so and completed her week, and he gave him his daughter Rachel as his wife. Comparing the Seventieth Week with the time of earth's judgment easily yields an answer which most people accept. I encourage the study of prophecy, as I believe are Lord not only intends for us to know what will happen, but will hold us accountable. Lastly, I could not agree with you more: Let's be sure our confidence is in Scripture alone! Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | DocTrinsograce | 165217 | ||
Dear Mark, On Point 3: I tend to agree. Nevertheless, one must remember that John was under Roman custody on the island of Patmos. Everything he wrote was carefully scrutinized by the Romans before it ever left the island. Consequently, we can pretty conclusively say that nothing he wrote offended them. If it had, we wouldn't have the benefit of being able to see those writings today! I think it would be a leap to call what he wrote "code." (Of course, God could have miraculously caused the Romans from being offended.) Yet if it didn't have pertinence to John's recipients -- suffering under Roman persecution -- it wouldn't have fulfilled its stated purpose. As we study, we keep in mind that the belief in the verbal plenary inspiration of Scripture always starts with the assumption of relevance to the original intended readers. The cool thing about Revelation is that it is incredibly rich, without bopping off into all that stuff about tattoos. (As if something in your physical body could effect the eternal disposition of your soul!) [As an aside: Why, after all, are people more interested in the stuff that's nebulous than they are in the stuff that is clear? For me, Revelation 20 through 22 is a lot more exciting than Revelation 13 through 16. The didactic epistles are even more exciting! Now there's some stuff you can live by! Ah well... that's my own bias showing.] Actually, your rendering of Daniel's prophecy as you have done assumes either of the two literal millennial views. Amillennialists and full preterists would disagree. Now, if you said, "Coming from a pre-millienial, dispensational perspective, we interpret this passage to mean seven years for the following reasons..." -- you'd be on safer ground. Unfortunately, people don't do that. Instead they say, "It means seven years" -- as though they have the authority of Daniel himself. As much as we may agree with that assessment -- and I do tend to agree, by the way, but only after a very thorough study of the book -- we ought never speak with an authority greater than the Bible actually grants us. Better to state authoritatively the things we know to be authoritatively true. There is lots and lots of Scripture on which we can state things with absolute certainty and with the authority of the Scripture itself and, consequently, God Himself! "Now, that there," as Brother Hank's cousin would probably put it, "otter bless our socks clean off!" In Him, Doc |
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6 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | mark d seyler | 165221 | ||
Hi Doc, Some historians place the actual writing of John's visions in Ephesus after his exile was lifted. It is also possible that if he wrote on Patmos, that the writings were smuggled off of the island. Brother Andrew may be able to tell you more about that. :-) In any case, I just don't think (IMO) that our LORD was inspiring John to write based on what he could and could not "get away with". That just does not seem like the God that I know. I always turn to Revelation 20-22 any time I need encouragement. Reading those chapters just about lifts me right up into heaven! :-) I understand that Amillennialists and Preterist would disagree with with my views, but I firmly believe that the Bible contains ample information that we can know for a certainty that this view is correct. There is a lot of scriptural evidence to base this on. I agree that we must study these things very thoroughly before reaching conclusions, and I have in fact put in hundreds of hours of study in end times prophecy, checking and rechecking and rechecking. And there are others that have reached different conclusions, and I do not judge them. But neither do I doubt what I have learned from studying the Bible simply because someone else disagrees. Each time I have examined the alternate views, I have been able to show the scriptural reasons that they cannot be true. I do not state these things lightly. There is no safer ground than standing on what the Bible teaches. Regarding the question that started this thread, there is not a doubt in my mind that these 70 weeks are 490 years, and I have no cause whatsoever to preface my statement of such with anything that would indicate this could be wrong. There are matters which I believe are not clearly delineated, and those I will present as such. This is my conscience before God. It is before Him that I will stand or fall. There is not a single part of the Bible, with the exception of certain lists of names, that does not endlessly fascinate me. And even those names, where I to understand why the Holy Spirit put them there, would be a source of major blessing. Personally, I encourage the serious study of all Scripture, as God gave it all to each of us, and for a reason. The fact is, while we do not know exactly what form the mark of the beast will take, it will come, and people need to know what it means. God's angels will announce it to the world at the time, but I don't think that absolves me of both knowing and teaching the warning God gives. God bless you, brother! Love in Christ, Mark |
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7 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | DocTrinsograce | 165232 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, Okay... So "seeking to understand where you are coming from on these points" must really "here are some leading questions." But see... these topics really do only produce contention. My goodness... imagine the argument I'd have had if I had disagreed with you! ;-) In Him, Doc |
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8 | The AntiChrist | Dan 9:27 | mark d seyler | 165244 | ||
Hi Doc, I'm sorry that you feel that way. My having a different view than yours in our ability to understand the Bible in no way diminishes my desire to know your frame of reference, especially considering that you have been basically saying that I have been making statements about things of which I cannot actually know. Personally, I know a number of people with whom I discuss such topics as end times prophecy, and without contention. We gain a great deal of comfort and encouragement from what God has told us is coming. We actually find it rather exciting! Myself, I think this is an incredibly exciting time to be alive, because we have these prophecies, and are seeing them fulfilled. There are not many people I discuss these things with that routinely become contentious. Mostly just on this forum. Anyway, again, I'm sorry if I have offended you. Love in Christ, Mark |
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