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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | what man was born but never died | 2 Kin 2:11 | BradK | 168903 | ||
Dear drbloor, I can quite agree with your initial statement that this topic is not one upon which we'll stand in judgement. It is within the realm of Rom. 14:1. With that said, I'd like to address 2 points with regard to your reply: 1. Acts 7:16- If we're simply dealing with a matter of semantics and the translation of the word metatithemi, then OK to a point. However, your claim seemed to indicate that Jacob was translated in the same manner as Enoch and Elijah. I do not see any scriptural warrant for such a conclusion if that is the case; 2. More importantly, you state that you, "believe he was simply transported and died just like everyone else." That can be your opinion, but this is at odds with scripture my friend! In Gen. 5:24 Enoch is set apart. Of each of the patriarchs before him, it is recorded "and he died" (Gen. 5:5, 8,11,14,17,20). But of Enoch it is written, that he did "not see death" and the reason given is that "God took him" and "he was not found." This implies that men looked everywhere for him, but the search parties could not find him dead or alive. The account in Heb. 11:5 is all the more explicit, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP..." Paul does not say Enoch died. He is the clear exception. Incidentally, Heb. 11:13 refers back to the beginning of the paragraph that starts at 11:8! C.H. Spurgeon remarks about Enoch: "But what did happen to Enoch? I am afraid I have said he died, or that I shall say so, it is so natural to speak of men as dying, but he alone and one other of all the human race are all that have entered the heavenly Canaan without fording the river of death. We are told concerning him that “he was not.” Those gentlemen who believe that the word to “die” signifies to be annihilated, would have been still more confirmed in their views if the words in my text, “he was not” had been applied to ad departed men, for if any expression might signify annihilation on their mode of translation — this is the one: “He was not” does not, however, mean that he was annihilated, and neither does the far feebler term of dying signify anything of the kind. “He was not”; that is to say, he was not here, that is all. He was gone from earth, but he was there, there where God had translated him. He was, he is with God, and that without having tasted death. Do not grudge him his avoidance of death. It was a favor, but not by any means so great as some would think, for those who do not die must undergo a change, and Enoch was changed. “We shall not all sleep,” says the apostle, “but we shall all be changed.” The flesh and blood of Enoch could not inherit the kingdom of God: in a moment he underwent a transformation which you and I will have to undergo in the day of the resurrection; and so, though he was not on earth, he was translated or transplanted from the gardens of earth to the Paradise above." We will have to agree to dsagree on this one:-) Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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2 | what man was born but never died | 2 Kin 2:11 | drbloor | 168923 | ||
Hi Brad and thanks for the answer, 1. I think this may be a point to agree to disagree on. I see that Jacob, being dead, was transported somewhere, not by his power, but by the power of someone else. That is how I see the translation of Enoch, Elijah and Jacob as being the same - a transportation not of their own power. As I've said, if you were reading it in the original Greek you'd be lead to believe that whatever happened to Enoch in Hebrews happened to Jacob in Acts. It's the translation from Greek to English that changes it for us. Translation may seem like mere semantics but it is important. For example, your translation of Hebrews 11 which uses the phrase "taken up". That phrase simply doesn't exist in the original Greek - it's the word we've discussed "metatithemi". And it doesn't mean "taken up" - that's an incorrect human translation based on a pre-conceived idea that Enoch went up to heaven. 2. The reason that we are not told explicitly that Enoch died in Genesis may actually be self apparent. The writer knew exactly how long every one else lived, so he records that age and notes that they died. But if no one could find Enoch after he was translated then it would be impossible for any human writer to know when he died. All that could be done was to record how long he lived until his translation. 3. Again, this may boil down to semantics. You believe that God translated Enoch so that he would never, ever experience death. I believe God translated Enoch so that he could temporarily avoid death – I would say that Enoch was threatened with death but because he walked with God, God took him away from that situation. Both of these stem from what we understand of the phrase "not see death." I suppose that could be argued either way. 4. I would however differ on the point in Hebrews 11. The phrase "these all" grammatically includes those who precede as well as those which follow - the relative pronoun embraces all those named in the list of the righteous. "These all" in verse 13 applies to those of the whole chapter, just as "these all" in verse 39 does. To say that it applies to some and not all is an arbitrary choice which ignores the grammatical and contextual setting. Anyway, it's late here and I really could do with getting home. I'll just leave you with a few things to ponder: 1. If Elijah was translated from Earth to Heaven how and why did he write a letter to the King of Judah nearly ten years later? (2 Chr 21:12) 2. How can Enoch or Elijah have been taken up to heaven if "no man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jhn 3:13). 3. The person whose death is not recorded that you overlooked was Melchisedec, of whom it was written he was, "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life." (Hebrews 7) Okay and as always, thanks, Dr. B. |
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