Results 601 - 620 of 801
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Results from: Notes Author: jlhetrick Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
601 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211071 | ||
Thanks Doc, and forgive my apparent forgetfullness (I didn't forget about the stones) I really didn't expect you would get to this for a day or so. Thanks for the references; I will follow up with them. Jeff |
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602 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211073 | ||
Brother Tim- After having read, carefully, the entire thread here I have the following observation. At this point, I can only view your position as being better supported by Scripture than those who believe any of the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. The absence of Scriptural support to prove, or really even suggest, that any gift HAS ceased is either not there or no one has pointed to it. I'm reminded of the very prudent warning to NEVER establish one's doctrine from a single verse or passage, yet, I'm not finding or being pointed to a SINGLE verse that confirms (or again even suggests) that any of the gifts have been ceased as of yet. Still, some, many do believe of the cessation of some gifts though I am not sure why only some (including tongues and healing) have been singled out to have ceased. I'm left with the questionS I had abandoned some time ago. Are the gifts of the Spirit still available to the Chruch today or have they ceased? If they have ceased, where does it say so in Scripture? If Scripture doesn't say so then why would we believe it. If they have not ceased what has caused so many to believe they have? Fortunately for me, I have learned not to allow these things to cause great distress. Like you, I will simply stick with what Scripture says. I'm always willing (even eager) to have Scripture change my position on anything when I'm wrong. On this issue I'm afraid I have to start, literally, from scratch. I've believed one way based on rational arguments for years without having done the work of fully investigating the Scriptures for myself. In this early stage of doing so, I'm not yet finding Scripture to support that any of the gifts have ceased. We should all fear to believe it either way unless we are sure of the truth. If they have in fact ceased, to believe and practice otherwise would be counterfeit. If they have not ceased, to deny them would be to deny Scripture as well as the true work of the Spirit in the Church. God bless, Jeff |
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603 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211075 | ||
John- I believe my argument at this point is that it does not appear to be a use of common sense at all, to have impressed upon our noodles something that isn't supported by Scripture (either side) simply because the argument seems rational. If you mean to suggest that common sense in absence of Scriptural truth is somehow a trumping card I fear you're not only not using your noodle, but maybe drifting even further into error. To make the argument that Scripture says an untruth (as in your referencing the rising and setting of the sun) is as far from attention to context as we might arrive at my friend. There is a rather big word that I can't bring to recall at this moment that deals with this... it involves the use of language, sometimes figuratively, to explain something in a way that makes sense to the hearer. Some writers of Scripture choosing to do this in referring to thte rising and setting of the sun just doesn't fit into this debate. So when I speak of rational arguments, I'm not at all intending to suggest that having something impressed upon our noodle through good sounding arguments should cause us to arrive at a conclusion. I do mean, as I have always held, that we arrive at no final conclusion that Scripture does not. That, my friend, is what we should both be holding on to. God bless, Jeff |
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604 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211090 | ||
Brother John- thanks for sharing that. Yes, I'm very familiar with your reliance on Scripture as the only sure foundation for truth; hope I didn't come across as questioning that in principal. That was, in part, why I commented on your reference to the rising and setting of the sun. I believe that reference was out of context of the thread. The continuation or cessation of any of the gifts is not an essential issue that should be allowed to devide us. The point of my involvement with the thread is, if nothing else, to point toward the falty approach to doctrine that some have in believing something they can not justify by the Scriptures. Truth is, I have believed in the cessation of the so-called miracle gifts for as long as I can remember knowing of them. I'm a bit embarrassed to say, but it's the truth nonetheless, that I hadn't done the work myself. I'm sure that's true of much of what I believe since I have on more than one occassion had my doctrine adjusted by Scripture, some times very much changed. Once we get into it for ourselves, doing the actual work I mean, it may involve some unlearning. I have people very close to me on both sides of the issue. I have had, in addition to yourself, people proclaim the Spirit having revealed the truth to them while at the same time saying they can't point specifically to Scripture in support. I can't help but be wary of that. So when I see any declare so definately something they either can not or will not support Scripturally, I believe it a fair position to take to request they attempt to. You will agree that some are well equipped to quote others to justify their position while not always so prepaired to quote Scripture to do so. If nothing else, perhaps we are all encouraged to more rightly devide the Word of Truth. God bless and thanks for working with me. Jeff |
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605 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211132 | ||
Brother Tim, thank you for your thoughts. In the past, I spent several years in a charismatic church (actually 2 different ones). The thing that always bothered both me and my wife was the “speaking in tongues” business. First of all, it didn’t seem real to me (the lady to my left would be nearly perfectly imitating the guy in front of her, for example) and even if it was, it was not practiced biblically. Very often no interpretation and every service involved multiple people doing it at the same time. I have never spoken in tongues and neither has my wife (though I did pray for it sincerely for more than a couple of years because I was wrongly told that it was intended for every believer). We eventually left the first church after the pastor refused to correct publicly, to the congregation, some nonsense that a guest speaker had brought to the pulpit. Briefly, it had to do with a clearly unbiblical practice and although the pastor agreed, he would not address the church regarding it. Turns out that the speaker was on the staff of Kenneth Copeland’s “ministry” and through it all I found Kenneth Copeland was on our church board and an advisor so the pastor. Of course it was time to go. I agree that it does seem that the Church, in large part, has forgotten about the Holy Spirit. I also agree that it is the wrong approach to adopt and hold so tightly to any doctrine that is not biblically supported. I will revisit the biblical references you have pointed to; thanks for your feedback. I think of the patient who never misses a single appointment with me, always showing up on time but always with the same complaints. The one that doesn't take the medication as prescribed and doesn't apply the treatment plan. Jeff |
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606 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211134 | ||
Tim and all - So far I have only read the article at http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/cessgifts.html and have to agree with you Tim. I stopped taking notes at three pages (but read the entire article) and easily discerned that the article is of no value regarding my search for the truth. I believe by “hilarious” you were referring to the hostile tone, the obviously biased view point and the total lack of academic discipline. A 101 course in philosophical argument would do Mr. Edgar some good. The article just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny so offers no assistance in my search to better understand this topic. I believe part of Mr. Edgar’s inability to present a well considered argument is that he seems to have focused on the Word of Faith teachers as the opposition. We know they are wrong; they add to, take from, misrepresent and otherwise mistreat the Scriptures. I’m in need of insight regarding the biblical truth of Spiritual gifts as they applied then and now (if there is a difference or not and if so, to what degree). I will read the others offered and give honest feedback as well. We should all remember that when we read the writings of uninspired men we should try to do so with an open mind, I think we would all agree with that. We should remember that an open mind includes an understanding of our own biases. Otherwise, if we're reading what goes along with what we already think to be true we may miss something. |
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607 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211143 | ||
Brother John- Actually YES... there is a significant amount of Scripture that says that God is a triune God. A huge amount actually, but, so as not to take this already long thread off topic I'll simply point you to the Search box of which you are aware. I don't believe brother Tim is pushing doctrine any more than you are so we do better not to start to sling that type of language at each other, especially long-time respected members. This isn't, or shouldn't be, about convincing one to change his/her belief.... it is actually real bible study. I, for one, have a true struggle with understanding the issue and am benefiting from the dialogue. Until now, I have believed on the word of men and never knew that Scripture does not declare the cessation of the gifts with the end of the apostolic age. I am both shocked and humbled by that fact and very interested in exploring the points with people from both views. I greatly fear false doctrine, but I also fear leaving out what God has intended not to be left out. As believers and brothers in Christ we should do this respectfully, to include opting out individually if we're not benefiting. God bless, Jeff |
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608 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211148 | ||
Cheri- thanks for the input. I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, but I'm not sure that faith is necessarily the catlyst for the gifts. That is to say that while I believe any gift should be worked IN faith, faith is not the producer of it. One of the articles Doc pointed to pointted this out. At pentacost those who spoke in tongues were certainly believing God in faith, however, they were not aware of the gift of tongues and/or expecting to be speaking in unknown languages until such time as God caused them to do so. So again, I'm not disagreeing, just pointing that out. I believe there are many Christian's(including participants here) that have as much, and possibly even more, faith as some of those may have had when practicing such gifts. I say possibly more because we are fortunate to have the end result of what many of the early believers were struggling through as a witness to further our faith. I also believe that since it is God who gives the measure of faith in the first place, He is able to produce that in us to the degree necessary to carry out His will, including the working of the gifts in the Church. Thanks for your insight as always sister. Jeff |
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609 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211149 | ||
Thanks John- My position was that the "comparison" wasn't a good one since we can see from Scripture that it clearly and unquestionably defines the Trinity; while it doesn't clearly (as far as anyone has pointed to) establish either side of the topic at hand. I wasn't trying to be argumentative nor was I trying to discredit you. I was attempting to explore the thought ligically and arrive at a logical conclusion. Remember, God does not settle anything through prayer regarding doctrine that He doesn't settle in His word. This is a very important foundation that we must stand firmly on. God bless, Jeff |
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610 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211150 | ||
Brother Mark- I apologize that I did not get your point as to exactly what in my post you were responding to. I do get the overall point of the Scripture you referenced. God bless, Jeff |
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611 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211152 | ||
Thanks! | ||||||
612 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211154 | ||
Steve- thanks for doing the work of researching for some resources (as Doc did also). I have read through Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" but haven't studied it deeply. I was actually surprised by the interview and didn't realize where he stood on the subject. Much of what he said about the charasmatics reminded me of the late Vernon Mcgee. He really shed some light on the modern day thinking of the living Church. Has there been a quenching of the Spirit? |
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613 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211156 | ||
Newwine- You wrote: "Which would have multiplied the amount people that were able to avail themselves of these gifts, and in many cases much younger than the Apostles. Thereby putting the possible end of said gifts into the 2nd. century, and so on with the same teaching from Cor...." Not necessarily. I believe the Scriptural teaching of the gifts of the Spirit are clearly shown to be the work of God through the believer. They would no more be dependent on the life-span of the individual (or the teaching for that matter) than they are on the individual's faith. In other words, I don't find that God would give a gift to an individual and then he/she be in permanent possession and practice of that gift until his/her death. I also have not yet found where He gives and then takes away gifts; it's just that I do see where particular gifts were used in particular events by individuals and then not mentioned again. If I have misunderstood you please redirect me. God bless, Jeff |
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614 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211160 | ||
John- I am truly sorry to have offended you and assure you that it was not my intention. It was not my intention to criticize your comparison, simply to honestly disagree with it's relevance. I believe I presented my thoughts as fairly and honestly as I was capable of. I don't see the need to become verbally combative in response. We can disagree with respect for one anothers dignity. I'm not sure what you mean by my seeming not to like quite a few of your comparisons but I will apologize in advance for that as well and offer a private email dialogue to explain where I may have disagreed with you in the past. I believe the way you have handled both myself and brother Tim in this thread has been, at times, a bit over the edge and uncalled for, all things considered. Might I suggest a careful reading and consideration for editing before posting responses? In turn I will commit to the same rule. Sincerely, Jeff |
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615 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 212078 | ||
Yes Val, you are correct. The tongues given on the day of Pentecost spoken of in Acts were the different languages spoken by the different folks visiting there. It says so clearly there in the text. Regarding your comments on healing I see, once again, the dangerous practice of allowing opinions to cloud the truth. Or, it’s a case of my misunderstanding you. The “respected bible teacher” may “believe that the person who is sick is given an impression from God that they will be healed”. Is that teaching found/supported in Scripture? Jeff |
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616 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 212087 | ||
Thanks for further insight Val regarding your position. The clarification did help since your prior post qualified the person as a "bible teacher" and that he/she "believes" what he/she was saying about God giving "impressions that they would be healed". These things taken together, for many of our readers, might easily be viewed as a teaching and not simply an opinion. It's why I peraonally have a hard time with these type of things being mentioned on the forum unless they are better qualified. For the respected bible teacher I would ask... What makes you believe such a thing? If there is nothing in Scripture to support it why even hold it as an opinion? I'm not splitting hairs here; there are significant implications. To begin with, Scripture tells us that God can and does heal physical health problems. It also tells us that He doesn't always do so, even when we pray faithfully. When we add to it that there is an impression given by God what does that even mean? Do the sick stay sick and wait for an impression? What is the impression and how do we know we're getting it? If we believe we got it and faithfully follow through wtih the passage in James and then are not healed what does that mean? Some might believe God played a cruel joke on them by giving them an impression and then not follow through with a healing. Anyway, I believe you get the point now. I know it's difficult to present things as properly as we might hope in this format. So we're required to be even more guarded that we don't misrepresent the truth of Scripture. God bless, Jeff |
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617 | Baptized before serving in choir | 1 Cor 12:13 | jlhetrick | 183292 | ||
Hello sister, you have received several good responses and my own is simply an attempt to offer encouragement to you. Praise God sister. Your participation on the Forum has without doubt demonstrated you to be a responsible seeker of truth and God's will. Your focused efforts to draw biblical conclusions continue to be both encouraging and great examples for us all. No wonder that those in your church have called on you to take on such responsibility. You are right in not assuming that any church mandate is biblical just because the church has made it a rule. That is always the wrong answer. On issues like this my approach is this. After careful study and consideration, if Scripture doesn't specifically teach it, and the practice does not itself contradict Scriptures, I consider the point "non-essential". Then I am free to accept or reject it. A good example is that my own denomination requires baptism for church membership. We also believe and teach that water baptism does not save but is a symbolic, public confession of our position in Christ once He has saved us. I have no objections to being baptized into church membership as a like symbol of my commitment and standing with the church as a member. It is not required in any biblical teaching that I am aware of. Nor is it forsaken in any. If the church taught that baptism was necessary to be placed in the true church, the body of Christ, that would be unbiblical and unacceptable. I believe that a proper explanation should be given to each prospective choir member as to why baptism is required so each can decide for him/herself. If that "reason" is not in contradiction to Scripture, I personally would support the tradition of the church. Just my two cents worth. God bless you sister, Jeff |
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618 | Baptized before serving in choir | 1 Cor 12:13 | jlhetrick | 183293 | ||
Hello justme, I agree with your post up to the last sentence. you wrote: "I think it best to follow your churches requirements with confidence it is Biblical. ' I disagree with this as it is stated. I believe that the church in general today has been filled with corruption and false teaching in a way never before seen. My OPINION is that this can be clearly seen across denominations. The Bible clearly teaches that we are to test "everything" we hear (even from those who preach and teach it) with Scripture to see if it is true. I believe that much of where the church is missing the mark today is a direct result of lazy and uninterested believers not taking the time, energy, and effort to study and test what he/she hears and is taught by the local church. Brother, if I am wrong in my position please provide Scriptural support that teaches we as Christians should follow church requirements with confidence they are biblical. Not splitting hairs friend, just very concerned about the possible implication your statement may have on some readers. Sincerely and God bless, Jeff |
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619 | Baptized before serving in choir | 1 Cor 12:13 | jlhetrick | 183342 | ||
Justme, We are certainly in agreement that a church choir should consist only of believers, but that was not the essence of Azure's question as I understood it. She specifically referred to baptism as I understood her question. Baptism certainly doesn't make a believer as we both know. Nor does the lack of baptism negate the power and work of the Holy Spirit that He has begun in any person. In any case, I believe that what you are responding to has more to do with my disagreeing with your guidance suggesting that Azure, or perhaps believers in general, should follow church imposed guidelines with a safe assumption that because it's the churches rule it is biblical. I felt and feel like a statement with such a potential for misguidance must be addressed. As for my comments about the stray nature of today's church, your response leads me to believe that I now have the responsibility to further clarify my statements. The Lord Jesus Christ is in charge and total control of His Church and no harm comes to It that He does not allow. I believe we will agree on that. For the sake of clarification let me acknowledge that I do not have researched evidence that the church is at a degraded state in these times nor did my earlier statements intend to qualify such an argument as you possibly believe they did. I will say, however, that the position is absolutely biblical. 2 Timothy 4:1-5 (ESV) 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. Many so-called Christian denominations today are very clearly rising to new levels of anti-biblical, antichrist teachings and practices such as accepting, approving of and even ordaining homosexuals for example. Let's not for a moment ignore the obvious. God's word says it will happen and it is happening whether we agree on it or not. We can at least be thankful for the new technologies in media that are able to clearly point it out. I hope this response helped to clarify as well as reiterate my concern. God bless you brother, Jeff |
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620 | What do we focus on? | 1 Cor 12:13 | jlhetrick | 183540 | ||
Justme, I said I wouldn't respond but I feel compelled to. I believe you misunderstood me again. I certainly did not intend to imply that I was cutting off any further communications with you. I look forward to further dialogue with you just wanted to extract myself from a thread that had taken on a wrong tone and become unproductive in my opinion. These types of discussions actually do not make me uncomfortable, perhaps to my discredit, but they do violate the terms of use of the forum. In any case, please do feel free to respond to any post of mine at any time. And if my feedback did help to smooth out some things for you then perhaps it was not as unproductive as I believed and I am grateful. God bless, Jeff |
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