Results 441 - 460 of 787
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Results from: Notes Author: Radioman2 Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
441 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 86019 | ||
Part 2 From your own words, it appears that your concept of bad doctrine is narrowly limited and your concept of heresy is nonexistent. It sounds as if you're saying it doesn't matter what you teach about Christ, His atonement or anything else, as long as you don't teach that it's OK for a Christian to sin. If so, then Joyce Meyer is not the only one who fails to understand essential Christian teaching. 'From 17th century mystics to 20th century Word-Faith proponents, Meyer has fed on a harmful diet of unbiblical teaching.' '“Joyce Meyer is the classic case of an individual who knows absolutely no theology, who has read a few books, picked up some ideas, takes some popular notions then teaches them. It’s these kinds of people who are dangerous in the Body of Christ because they know nothing. She has no grasp of historic systematic theology. Basically what she’s doing is, she’s going back to Rome with her understanding of sin...She has rejected the basic Reformational truth of justification. She’s a heretic!”29' 'Meyer maintains her “ministry is so important because we’re called to the believers. We’re to help believers mature, and grow up.”30 Yet, how can she fulfill such a noble “call” when she, herself, has no proper understanding of the doctrine of justification and promotes a different gospel? The Gospel is something every true believer should understand. Meyer’s confusion on such a vital tenet of the Christian faith emphasizes an immaturity on her part and an inability to help others. Rather, she is simply blindly leading the blind.' 'While Meyer’s preaching may be folksy and down-to-earth, it isn’t biblical when it comes to the Gospel, the crux of Christianity. Most of those who hear or watch Meyer via radio and television, are probably unaware that she espouses heresy.' 'Like the Watchtower, Meyer has absolutely no scholarly foundation for such a belief. She reads into Scripture (eisegesis) whatever it takes in order to buttress her heretical doctrine. This, too, is not very practical.' 'But if Meyer wants to truly teach the Bible, rightly divide the Word of Truth and affect lives in a lasting way, she needs to get a theological education and a sound doctrinal foundation.' 'She plays with the truth and recreates and fabricates her past as far as what she taught. She fails to understand essential Christian teaching. Scripture, whether knowingly or unknowingly in her view, is insufficient, thereby requiring “revelation knowledge” to supplement it.' 'Somehow, those who really, “tell it like it is” are looked down upon as overeducated, unanointed, critical, religious attackers. The bottom line is that as a result of not studying to show herself approved unto God, Meyer succumbs to heresies, promotes false teaching and does not tell it like it is — she tells it like it isn’t.' ____________________ THE PREACHER WHO DOESN’T TELL IT LIKE IT IS: THE TRUTH TWISTING AND TALL TALES OF JOYCE MEYER by Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher This are excerpts from the article. To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm) |
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442 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 86018 | ||
Part 1 From your own words, it appears that your concept of bad doctrine is narrowly limited and your concept of heresy is nonexistent. It sounds as if you're saying it doesn't matter what you teach about Christ, His atonement or anything else, as long as you don't teach that it's OK for a Christian to sin. If so, then Joyce Meyer is not the only one who fails to understand essential Christian teaching. 'Like others in the Word-Faith camp who are uneducated, untrained and unskilled in doctrine and systematic theology, Meyer is none too eager to openly discuss the Christian faith with one who has worked hard to rightly divide the Word of Truth.' 'Matzat, a friend of Dave’s [Meyer's] family, recalled the meeting: “We had a very nice chat. I told them exactly what I just said here. I said, ‘You were distorting the doctrine of justification.’ I said, ‘What your doctrine will lead to is what Ken Copeland teaches, that Jesus had to be born again in hell. Because He’s simply a man dying for our sins.’ She did not reject what Ken Copeland teaches. She simply told me, ‘I am not going to change what I teach.’”4' 'Having foolishly appealed to divine revelation and God’s impartation for the message, she now, in essence, has made God culpable for an obsolete message. Thus, one must ask, why does she continue to rely upon revelation knowledge when it produces obsolete messages and indicts God as the author of heresy? And how can the average listener discern which part of Meyer’s materials are biblical truth and which are destined for the trash heap of obsolescence? The caution of Zechariah 13:4-5 regarding false prophets who change their mind and their message bears consideration here.' 'As noted above, neither Meyer nor her husband has the necessary theological training to defend her indefensible teachings. The only reason the Meyers can say that it’s not their “position” to respond and “straighten” us out is that they fail to grasp the basics of biblical interpretation and hermeneutics. As a result, it’s not that they won’t respond, it’s because they cannot respond. “Let[ting] God respond” is merely subterfuge. Strange how first-class, super-Christians, who would have us believe they are tapping into divine revelation, can do all things in Christ, except successfully defend their damnable doctrines of demons.' 'The amount of fanciful “revelation knowledge” necessary to contradict the clear teaching of Scripture, in order to teach the “born again Jesus” gospel, is nothing short of amazing. Meyer, like her predecessors, offers the same “you’ve got to get it by revelation” diversion.' 'her logic is as flawed as cult logic. Meyer needs something more concrete on which to base her claims. Remember, Christianity is based on facts, not feelings. Holy Ghost “goose bumps,” liver quivers or even subjective short-term change are not the confirmation of the Christian faith.' 'Listening to her twists, turns and changes could only lead one to conclude that God is confused. Meyer’s appeal to have God’s blessing upon her ministry is questionable when one considers that God does not empower the vanguards of the Church to teach false and heretical doctrine.' 'Our Lord said, “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit” (Luke 6:43). Meyer, like others lacking discernment, gets her spiritual nourishment from bad trees. Yes, Charismatic beliefs do “fuel conflict” with Evangelical Christianity when their sources are unbiblical and non-Christian.' ____________________ THE PREACHER WHO DOESN’T TELL IT LIKE IT IS: THE TRUTH TWISTING AND TALL TALES OF JOYCE MEYER by Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher This are excerpts from the article. To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm) |
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443 | "Doctrine divides" | Rom 16:17 | Radioman2 | 85969 | ||
'"Doctrine divides" has been the hue and cry. Yes, doctrine does divide - that’s its very purpose. It divides us from the Jehovah’s Witnesses and from those . . . who promote a distorted view of Christ and His atonement.' -- Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher AMPLIFIED Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to be on your guard concerning those who create dissensions and difficulties and cause divisions, in opposition to the doctrine (the teaching) which you have been taught. [I warn you to turn aside from them, to] avoid them. |
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444 | "Doctrine divides" | 1 Tim 4:16 | Radioman2 | 85938 | ||
'"Doctrine divides" has been the hue and cry. Yes, doctrine does divide - that’s its very purpose. It divides us from the Jehovah’s Witnesses and from those . . . who promote a distorted view of Christ and His atonement.' -- Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher 1 Timothy 4:16 (New King James Version) Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. |
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445 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85919 | ||
JOYCE MEYER MISSING CHARACTER 'While Meyer claims, “It’s important to me to have character and integrity,”14 she lacks those qualities when she uses red herrings such as the above in order to evade any and every critic regardless of their status. Criticism directed to her does not stem from her lack of education, it rather stems from her heretical teachings. She not only lacks a sound understanding of Scripture, she lacks integrity and a teachable spirit, the very things she boasts about. 'Why does PFO make the charge of “unteachable”? When she met with Matzat to discuss the issues that were brought up on the radio broadcast, she told him that she was not going to change what she taught. This certainly emphasizes that she is not willing to learn sound doctrine or repent of the heretical teaching she promoted. The book of Proverbs is replete with admonitions that a wise man is teachable. Meyer, apparently prefers to hold onto teachings scraped from the garbage cans of the Word-Faith movement. 'On the radio broadcast, Matzat spent a great deal of time in his introduction of the program covering the issue of discernment and how it’s not a matter of dealing with the person or getting personal. He took great pains to explain this, “You don’t deal with the individual, rather you deal with the concepts.” Matzat made the truth as palatable as possible. It’s one thing to be confused or unclear on an essential Christian doctrine such as the Gospel, but it’s an entirely different matter when one adamantly refuses to acknowledge the truth when confronted with it. 'REAL CHANGE? 'Meyer told Charisma that she has been radically changed from being “angry, rebellious and hateful toward men” and “mean, ornery, sarcastic, sharp, hard, bitter and full of resentment.”15 She even admitted to have trouble submitting to her own pastor, “Acknowledging that their strong-willed personalities clashed regularly.”16 The Lord has worked in her life, she says, and the result is “an absolute, all-out, total miracle.”17 While there may have been a change in her life, the transformation falls short of being a “miracle.” 'Consider this example: '“And from here on, it probably wouldn’t do you one bit of good to try and follow me. So if you’re taking notes, you can write down the Scriptures. Cause very frankly, I’m not going to have time to wait on you.”18 'Her words are not exactly what one could label a servant’s heart or a demonstration of patience, nor much of a Christian display of love. Consider, also, these comments: '“Don’t talk to anybody, don’t go to the bathroom, don’t go get a drink of water, don’t move - just listen. Amen? I believe it’s that important.”19 'When listening to her sermon tape in its entirety, there is ample evidence that she possess an aura of haughtiness. For emphasis, she speaks just short of yelling through the entire tape. There is no doubt in her mind that what she is teaching is gospel truth. Unfortunately, if you first listen to Kenneth Copeland’s version of this damnable teaching, it is obvious that Meyer simply heisted not only his title, but his teaching as well. Plagiarizing someone else’s material is bad enough, but plagiarizing heresy is even more regrettable. And then naming God as the source is blasphemous. 'While she may have mellowed with time, there doesn’t seem to be a radical difference between the old and the new Joyce Meyer. The Charisma spin attempts to soften her personality, but in fact demonstrates her continued arrogance and combative spirit.' ____________________ THE PREACHER WHO DOESN’T TELL IT LIKE IT IS: THE TRUTH TWISTING AND TALL TALES OF JOYCE MEYER by Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher This is an excerpt from the article. To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm) |
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446 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85918 | ||
A GOD OF HUMAN PROPORTIONS: The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'Copeland's deflation of God is best exemplified by his comment that "the biggest failure in the Bible...is God."* (*Kenneth Copeland, Praise-a-Thon, TBN, 1988. Copeland has, in another instance, stated that God "is not a failure" (Kenneth Copeland, The Troublemaker [Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Publications, n.d.], 23).) - - - - - - - - - - - - - [Note: Numbers within or at the end of sentences are footnote numbers. To read the footnotes providing reference sources for this article, go to: (www.equip.org/free/DC755-2.htm)] 'Copeland's view of God fares no better biblically than his understanding of faith. He describes God as someone "very much like you and me....A being that stands somewhere around 6'2," 6'3," that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, [and] has a [hand]span nine inches across."22 'Copeland's statement is based on his hyperliteral reading of Isaiah 40:12 ("Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, marked off the heavens with a [nine inch] span,..." [AV]). Yet following the same line of interpretation, one would also have to conclude that God literally held a basket full of dust and weighed mountains on a gigantic set of scales (v. 12b) - an absurd proposition ruled out by the context of the passage. The fact is that Isaiah 40 makes extensive use of figurative language to underscore the vast difference between the Creator and His creation. 'Giving a literal spin on verses that figuratively describe God in humanlike (anthropomorphic) terms, Copeland makes God out to be a "spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet."23 However, the Bible never intended to convey the notion that God has physical features like His human creation. Anthropomorphic descriptions were simply meant to help us understand and relate to our Maker. Jesus declared, "God is spirit" (John 4:24), not a spirit-being with a body (cf. Deut. 4:12). The Creator is, after all, "God, and not man" (Hos. 11:9). 'The idea of God possessing a body (physical or spirit) implies the unbiblical view that the Trinity is actually composed of three separate beings. Moreover, a God who has a body with definite, measurable dimensions cannot truly be omnipresent, unlike the God of Scripture who is present everywhere in all His fullness (Jer. 23:23-24). (It is true that in His human nature Christ has a body and is localized in space and time. But in His divine nature He remains nonphysical and omnipresent, sharing this immutable nature with the Father and Holy Spirit.) Copeland's deflation of God is best exemplified by his comment that "the biggest failure in the Bible...is God."24 In stark contrast, the biblical God is an all-powerful being (Dan. 4:35) whose plans cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2) and who considers nothing too difficult (Jer. 32:17; Luke 1:37). 'Copeland's diminished view of God is further amplified by a correspondingly inflated view of the universe in general and man in particular. He claims that the earth is "a copy of the mother planet [i.e., heaven] where God lives."25 Exactly how Copeland could "squeeze" God on any planet is difficult to fathom, especially since Solomon pointed out that heaven itself cannot contain God (1 Kings 8:27).' ____________________ The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland. To read more, including extensive footnotes, go to: (www.equip.org/free/DC755-2.htm) matt2411 |
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447 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85917 | ||
Hank: You make a good point when you write: "The way I see it, if one views it as unfair to call Joyce Meyer a false teacher, then it seems unfair to come down so hard on the poor Lutherans." ____________________ "Why are you dividing the Body this way? Why are you attacking Christians? These people love the Lord." [This is a question that, in various forms, I have repeatedly been asked, especially when I dare to question the teachings of certain TV preachers and others who end up teaching things that are a bit bizarre and weird. --Radioman2] 'If you've been around for a while and understand the issue of tactics here--especially the suicide tactic-- you notice that this objection immediately defeats itself because this person is calling me on the air and publicly telling me that I am wrong for speaking on the air about other people who are wrong. In other words, they are accusing me of doing the very thing that they are in the process of doing.' ____________________ "Christian:" A Sound or a Word? by Gregory Koukl This post is an excerpt from the above commentary. To read more go to: (http://www.str.org) |
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448 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85898 | ||
THE FORCE OF FAITH: The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland [Note: Numbers within or at the end of sentences are footnote numbers. To read the footnotes providing reference sources for this article, go to: (www.equip.org/free/DC755-2.htm)] 'Of the multiple views of faith held by Faith teachers,10 Copeland focuses primarily on an understanding of faith as a force. "Faith is a power force," he claims. "It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force."11 Moreover, "faith is a spiritual force....It is substance. Faith has the ability to effect natural substance."12 As "the force of gravity...makes the law of gravity work...this force of faith...makes the laws of the spirit world function."13 'Copeland affirms that "God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith,"14 for "faith is God's source of power" (emphasis in original).15 Moreover, "everything that you're able to see or touch, anything that you can feel, anything that's perceptive to the five physical senses, was originally the faith of God, and was born in the substance of God's faith."16 In other words, "faith was the raw material substance that the Spirit of God used to form the universe."17 'Copeland adds that "God used words when He created the heaven and the earth....Each time God spoke, He released His faith - the creative power to bring His words to pass."18 For "words are spiritual containers,"19 and the "force of faith is released by words."20 'Copeland derives his definition of faith from Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (KJV). He interprets the word "substance" as some transcendent, primary element that makes up the universe; it was and is activated by spoken words at the onset of creation (both God's original creation of the world and all subsequent creations, whether by God or man). 'Contrary to Copeland's view, the word translated "substance" in the King James Version is the Greek word hypostasis which, in the context of Hebrews 11:1, means "an assured impression, a mental realizing."21 Far from being some tangible material or energetic force, faith is a channel of living trust stretching from man to God. It is an assurance that God's promises never fail, even if sometimes we do not experience their fulfillment during our mortal existence. Other translations render hypostasis more precisely as "being sure" (NIV), "to be sure" (TEV), and "assurance" (NASB). 'Neither the original Greek text nor any of the modern translations support Copeland's understanding of faith. The same holds true for his understanding of spoken words. Besides, the idea of words functioning as faith-filled containers makes no sense if there is no such thing as a "force of faith" (requiring packaging and transportation) in the first place. ____________________ The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland. To read more, including extensive footnotes, go to: (www.equip.org/free/DC755-2.htm) matt2411 |
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449 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85897 | ||
JOYCE MEYER WHAT IS REAL PROOF? 'Meyer says “that the changed lives are proof enough,” that she’s “anointed by God to do what I’m doing.”13 As is the Charismatic tendency, this is a subjective posture. Every cult and aberrational sect on the face of the Earth appeals to “changed lives” as a means of validating their claims that they represent God. Latter-day Saints, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and others all validate that they are “anointed by God” to do what they’re doing by virtue of “changed lives.” As such, her logic is as flawed as cult logic. Meyer needs something more concrete on which to base her claims. Remember, Christianity is based on facts, not feelings. Holy Ghost “goose bumps,” liver quivers or even subjective short-term change are not the confirmation of the Christian faith. 'Objectively speaking, her literature and tapes are “proof enough” that she is not anointed! Listening to her twists, turns and changes could only lead one to conclude that God is confused. Meyer’s appeal to have God’s blessing upon her ministry is questionable when one considers that God does not empower the vanguards of the Church to teach false and heretical doctrine. 'Sadly, when careful exegetes of God’s Word challenge her theology, she resorts to calling them “religious people” (pg. 55) who only criticize her for not being as well-educated as they are and then appeals to her “anointing” as proof that she is free to ignore them.' ____________________ THE PREACHER WHO DOESN’T TELL IT LIKE IT IS: THE TRUTH TWISTING AND TALL TALES OF JOYCE MEYER by Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher This is an excerpt from the article. To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm) |
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450 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85887 | ||
SPIRITUAL DEATH AND REBIRTH IN HELL: The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'The "spiritual death of Christ" teaching entails an implicit denial of Christ's deity and, in turn, of the Trinity.' - - - - - - - - - - - - - [Note: Numbers in text are footnote numbers. To read footnotes providing reference sources for this article, go to: (www.equip.org/free/DC755-2.htm)] 'When it comes to defining the Atonement, Copeland says, "It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that."63 Jesus supposedly "put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned]."64 Copeland is here referring to the nature of Satan, as God pronounced that "Adam would die spiritually - that he would take on the nature of Satan which is spiritual death."65 He adds that "the day that Jesus was crucified, God's life, that eternal energy that was His from birth, moved out of Him and He accepted the very nature of death itself."66 'During an alleged conversation with Copeland, Jesus is said to have remarked, "It was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross....I accepted, in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off."67 We are told that Jesus "had to give up His righteousness"68 and "accepted the sin nature of Satan."69 'Contrary to the teaching that Christ underwent a change of nature (into a satanic being), the Bible depicts Jesus as having an immutable divine nature (Heb. 13:8; cf. Mal. 3:6). Moreover, in saying that "spiritual death means separation from the life of God,"70 Copeland tacitly admits that Jesus completely lost His deity. For, as we noted earlier, Copeland defines the "life of God" as "the unseen force that makes God, God." However, Scripture declares that God is eternal and unchanging and thus never ceases to be God. The Father says of Christ, "But you remain the same, and your years will never end" (Heb. 1:12). 'Finally, the notion of Jesus being overtaken by "the very nature of death" is contradicted by Jesus' claim that He has "life in Himself" (John 5:26; cf. 1:4), is "the resurrection and the life" (11:25), and is "the way, the truth, and the life" (14:6). The "spiritual death of Christ" teaching entails an implicit denial of Christ's deity and, in turn, of the Trinity. 'Still, Copeland insists "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell" (emphasis in original).71 Copeland's description of Christ's ordeal in hell is nothing short of chilling: "He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer."72 'The situation seemed hopeless, as Jesus' "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing; and the devil thinks he's got Him destroyed."73 However, Copeland explains that "Satan fell into the trap. He took Him [Jesus] into hell illegally. He carried Him in there [when] He did not sin."74 God found the opening He needed: "That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life....Jesus was born again - the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him - and He whipped the devil in his own backyard."75 'Copeland's account, vivid though it may be, is not in the Bible. It misuses the phrase "firstborn from the dead" (Col. 1:18) to bolster the "born again Jesus" doctrine. Actually, the term "firstborn" (Greek: prototokos) primarily denotes primacy, headship, and preeminence. And the phrase itself points to Christ's supremacy "over all creation" (v. 15) in general and those who will be raised from the dead in particular (alluding to Christ's bodily resurrection - not some spiritual resuscitation in hell). 'Moreover, Jesus was not dragged into hell by Satan, but instead committed His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46) and went directly to paradise (v. 43). Nor was He tortured by a host of demons; He triumphed "over them by the cross" (Col. 2:15). Jesus paid for humanity's sin in full (Greek: tetelestai) at the cross (John 19:30) - not by becoming a satanic being, but through His physical sacrifice (Heb. 10:10; Col. 1:22). ____________________ To read more, including extensive footnotes, go to: (www.equip.org/free/DC755-2.htm) matt2411 |
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451 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85883 | ||
JOYCE MEYER JESUS IN HELL? 'The Charisma article indicates that another of Meyer’s critics, apologist Hank Hanegraaff, cited her booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make.8 Hanegraaff faulted Meyer for teaching that Jesus was born again in hell. Meyer responded by stating that she does not believe and has never taught that particular doctrine. 'Whether Hanegraaff ever used the exact words, “Jesus was born again in hell” or if the Charisma writer simply put those words in the Southern California apologist’s mouth in an attempt to build a “straw man” is not clear. What is clear, however, in spite of Meyer’s denials, is that in the fourth chapter of her booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, she: '• Teaches a born again Jesus.9 '• Teaches that hell, not the cross, is where salvation was purchased.10 'She not only delineates and defines the heresy but she blatantly defends it. 'While Meyer may deny now that she has ever taught that “Jesus was born again in hell,” she has not renounced the teaching nor denounced those who teach it. Were she to do so, she most likely would neither have her picture in or on Charisma magazine again, nor would she be invited to speak with the heretics who do believe and teach it: her mentors and friends. 'Based on the content of her book, turning to Christ would be the most impotent decision one would ever make. By placing faith in “another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4) as put forth in her booklet, a new “believer” would not be entitled to the new covenant purchased with Jesus Christ’s blood. Rather, the Jesus that Meyer proclaims, is a Jesus whose blood paid for nothing because his “blood was made of no effect,” being “treated as an unholy thing” (Hebrews 10:29), because according to this teaching, Jesus’ payment was actually made by suffering in hell. This teaching makes the “It is finished” of John 19:30 a lie. First Corinthians 15:3 is very clear: “Jesus was crucified and died for our sins,” not suffered in hell for our sins. 'Thus, Meyer refuses to debate and will not “comment directly on such opposition.” Is it any wonder that her husband remarked, “We let God respond” and “That’s not our position, to try and come back and straighten them out”? 'As noted above, neither Meyer nor her husband has the necessary theological training to defend her indefensible teachings. The only reason the Meyers can say that it’s not their “position” to respond and “straighten” us out is that they fail to grasp the basics of biblical interpretation and hermeneutics. As a result, it’s not that they won’t respond, it’s because they cannot respond. “Let[ting] God respond” is merely subterfuge. Strange how first-class, super-Christians, who would have us believe they are tapping into divine revelation, can do all things in Christ, except successfully defend their damnable doctrines of demons. 'As we read earlier, the Apostle Paul’s attitude was not to just let God respond, but to get into the trenches and do what God called him to do, namely to “cut the ground from under those who proclaim” another gospel. 'Even worse, their response gives this issue the sense of unimportance. Much to do about nothing! If it were, we would truly be wasting their time. Yet, those in apologetics ministries are keenly aware that this is an essential issue. Corrupting the Gospel produces heretical and damnable doctrine. Hence, we take heed to the Scripture’s admonition to “earnestly contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints” (Jude 3). We should not, and cannot, do otherwise.' ____________________ THE PREACHER WHO DOESN’T TELL IT LIKE IT IS: THE TRUTH TWISTING AND TALL TALES OF JOYCE MEYER by Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher This is an excerpt from the article. To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm) |
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452 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85858 | ||
JOYCE MEYER 'NOT A SINNER '...For years, Charisma magazine has left a lot to be desired. Double standards, subjective journalism, mysticism, attacks upon historic and orthodox Christianity, and little regard for hermeneutics appear with frequency in the magazine. The issue featuring [Joyce] Meyer was no exception. 'Take, for example, the magazine’s slamming of those who have evaluated her theology: '“Joyce is not the subject of intense controversy, but she has faced her critics. Various cult-watchers have attacked her, including one who lambasted her on St. Louis radio and challenged her to a debate (which she refused).”1 'The “attack” to which Charisma alluded was the Dec. 7, 1995 edition of Issues, Etc. (KFUO 850 AM in St. Louis). The program was hosted by Lutheran Pastor Don Matzat and the featured guests for the show were none other than the authors of this article.2 Evidently, the magazine or Meyer herself surmises that a systematic and biblical analysis of her teaching (with primary documentation from her tapes and writings) constitutes an “attack” or assault of some kind. Paul commended Bereans, while the magazine castigates them. 'Matzat, himself involved in the Charismatic movement from 1971-1986, observed: '“Regarding the challenge, as I remember it, it was nothing more than an open invitation to Joyce to respond to our comments. Joyce did not avail herself of the opportunity to respond on the air.”3 'Like others in the Word-Faith camp who are uneducated, untrained and unskilled in doctrine and systematic theology, Meyer is none too eager to openly discuss the Christian faith with one who has worked hard to rightly divide the Word of Truth. ( . . . ) 'Meyer’s concept of sinless perfection is the most disturbing element to Matzat. Meyer has claimed, '“Now whether you like it or not, whether you want to admit it or not, whether you want to operate on it or not, you are made the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Most people who go to denominational churches never ever hear that! They never hear it! Never! All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I, a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor. I am not miserable. And I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell! That is what I were [sic] and if I still was, then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”5 'Meyer may be able to say she is not poor and not miserable. First John 1:8, however, would preclude the rest of her comments about not being a sinner. Paul thought himself to be the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). As Christians we are, after all, saved sinners. 'Meyer’s comments point out the real issue: Just who is lambasting whom? Meyer’s declaration clearly lambastes the theology of the Reformers, including, most notably, Lutherans and Calvinists. 'As noted in our previous Journal article, Meyer no longer distributes the above tape with her perfectionistic ideas.6 A staff member from her ministry told PFO that the message is obsolete. What is not clear is what part of or if the entire message is obsolete. One of its major themes on the tape is the “born again Jesus” gospel. Yet it can be shown that Meyer still distributes material promoting this heretical gospel, which certainly suggests that she does not see it as entirely obsolete (at least for the time being). 'Moreover, when one examines the now obsolete tape, divine intervention and direct revelation are stated as the source of her message: '“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.”7 'Having foolishly appealed to divine revelation and God’s impartation for the message, she now, in essence, has made God culpable for an obsolete message. Thus, one must ask, why does she continue to rely upon revelation knowledge when it produces obsolete messages and indicts God as the author of heresy? And how can the average listener discern which part of Meyer’s materials are biblical truth and which are destined for the trash heap of obsolescence? The caution of Zechariah 13:4-5 regarding false prophets who change their mind and their message bears consideration here.' ____________________ THE PREACHER WHO DOESN’T TELL IT LIKE IT IS: THE TRUTH TWISTING AND TALL TALES OF JOYCE MEYER by Paul R. Belli and G. Richard Fisher This is an excerpt from the article. To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm) |
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453 | To think clearly and Biblically | Ps 119:105 | Radioman2 | 85829 | ||
TheCurtMan: Thank you for your reply. I would be happy to communicate directly with you. But, before we can communicate one-on-one, you will need to post an email address (it need not be your private, primary email address). Grace and peace, Radioman2 |
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454 | How does God speak to us? | Ps 119:105 | Radioman2 | 85813 | ||
How does God speak to us? 'I am a bit distressed even talking about this issue because my comments are meant to try to rein Christians in a little bit, to keep them off of the fringe... 'But whenever I have to rein Christians in a bit and talk about this kind of thing I feel badly because I realize that some people are straining at the bit for the best of reasons and with the best of intentions...They want to experience more of the working of the Holy Spirit in their life. And here is Koukl coming in, apparently throwing cold water on the whole operation. 'I feel bad about that because I have no intention of quenching the work of the Holy Spirit. My entire goal is to be very, very careful and look closely at the specifics of what's being held to be true to see if they do, in fact, line up with the directives given in the Scriptures. Or, are we drawing some wrong conclusions that cause us to go over the edge and maybe do some spiritual damage to ourselves and others?... 'I think I'm somewhat of an evangelical iconoclast because I'm always breaking up people's parties, so to speak. An iconoclast is an image breaker, someone who kind of attacks, to some degree, cherished notions. Sometimes that bothers people and I 'm sorry about that. I don't mean to cause trouble for the sake of trouble, but I do mean to force people to think clearly and Biblically, even about those ideas they cherish the most. And, to many of us, the thing that we cherish the most is this idea that we have a personal hotline to God and we ought to expect Him to speak to us about our decisions. 'I had a very stimulating conversation last week about this. I talked about it on Sunday in some detail, and then a friend of mine wrote me a note and offered me eighteen references from the book of Acts that seem to contradict my point of view. So what I want to do for just a few moments is to talk about these particular references and see if they do contradict what I was saying last weekend. 'I have to make clear what my point of view is so that it's not misunderstood. Let me capsulize it for you very quickly. My point of view is basically four quick points: 'First of all, learning to hear the voice of God is not taught as a Christian discipline that we must learn in order to live the optimal Christian life. This is the "hotline to God" view in which we get specialized and tailor-made instructions for our personal lives. That is not taught in Scripture. 'Secondly, God sometimes does give specialized instructions, so I'm not saying that God can't do that and I'm not putting God in a box. He does sometimes give specialized instructions. He did in Biblical times and He does in the present. But when we read in the Bible especially in the New Testament, which is what our discussion is about today when He has done it, such specialized instructions are clear first of all. They are not mumbled. They are not whispered. They are not nudged. And they are, almost without exception in the New Testament, a sovereign intrusion by God into the circumstances rather than something that is first sought by a Christian. 'Thirdly, God's intrusion in these cases is sometimes through special gifts in the body that I believe are in full operation today, but are by very nature individual. In other words, every person has his own gift and each person does not have every gift. So this working through gifts can't be a means of every Christian hearing from God. In other words, sometimes God intervenes with a prophetic word, but since prophetic words only come through those people who have the gift of prophecy, it's not the kind of thing we all have to cultivate, to learn to do. 'Finally, there are clearly workings of the Spirit in the area of teaching, conviction of sin and comforting of individual Christians. I admit that those workings are private, individual and tailored to individual people. Those kinds of things are not in question here. 'We're going to do a little Bible study. We're going to look at eighteen references suggested in the letter to me that was an attempt to offer contrary evidence from the Scriptures to the point of view that I just described for you. All of these references come from the book of Acts. We will see if these references actually undermine the basic point I have been making or not. In a sense, I hope the Bible study will go beyond just the meaning of the passages because what this will do, as we walk through it, is help us to learn how to be more precise and particular about our Bible study and not draw conclusions hastily or inappropriately from the Scriptures. But take a close, methodical look to get a clear idea of what is actually being averred here about Christian disciplines and God speaking.' ____________________ Acts and the Voice of God by Gregory Koukl To read more go to: (www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/actsvoic.htm) |
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455 | To think clearly and Biblically | Ps 119:105 | Radioman2 | 85812 | ||
"I think I'm somewhat of an evangelical iconoclast because I'm always breaking up people's parties, so to speak. An iconoclast is an image breaker, someone who kind of attacks, to some degree, cherished notions. Sometimes that bothers people and I 'm sorry about that. I don't mean to cause trouble for the sake of trouble, but I do mean to force people to think clearly and Biblically, even about those ideas they cherish the most." -- Gregory Koukl To read more go to: (www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/actsvoic.htm) |
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456 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85785 | ||
'Meyer’s writings and tapes continue to lack solid biblical exposition. Yet perhaps next month, next year, or the year after she will have again changed her teachings and be spreading different errors and “revelations.” Scripture is clear: We are to avoid those who are devoid of sound doctrine and are like wandering stars (Jude 12-13).' 'Meyer’s evolving, changing Word-Faith views are at best aberrant, confusing, misleading and unscriptural. Magic words, magic names and magic blood should be deplored and seen for what they are: superstition.' To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/wan-star.htm) |
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457 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85783 | ||
THE CHANGING VIEWS OF JOYCE MEYER 'Meyer can be classified as a Word-Faith teacher and as such has shown an inclination to waffle on major doctrines. In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, an evangelistic work aimed at nonbelievers, she resounds the Word-Faith view of Christ’s atonement: '“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, underlining in the original). '“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36, underlining in the original). '“His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserved to go. Remember in the very beginning of this, I said, ‘When you die, only your body dies. The rest of you, your soul and spirit, goes either to heaven or hell’” (ibid.). '“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell” (ibid.). '“Jesus went to hell for you” (pg. 38, underlining in the original). 'All of the above citations are from her chapter entitled, “What Should You Believe?”. The first subheading in this chapter is “What Happened on the Cross?”. Those familiar with Word-Faith vernacular will recall Kenneth Copeland’s 1984 tape, “What Happened From the Cross to the Throne.” Copeland apparently borrowed the title and theme from E.W. Kenyon’s book by the same name. 'Meyer teaches the classic “Born-Again Jesus” gospel that has been taught by Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Fred Price, John Jacobs, Charles Capps, Benny Hinn and Jan Crouch, to name a few. It’s usually presented under the guise of “revelation knowledge,” given by the Holy Spirit and grounded in Scripture. However, this gospel does not stand up under biblical scrutiny. 'Charismatics many times will make their case by saying, “Jesus went to hell. Doesn’t it say so somewhere in the book of Acts?” 'While it is true that Jesus went to hell (Ephesians 4:8-9; 1 Peter 3:18), attention should be focused on what He did or didn’t do there. Meyer and her kind teach that Jesus went there to pay for our sins, it’s the same kind of payment — or better — that He made on the cross. 'The reader is asked to recall Meyer’s repeated declarations: “He paid the price there ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell ... Jesus took your place in hell ... Jesus went to hell for you.” 'Every cult and pseudo-Christian sect disparages the cross. An enemy of the cross is one who even suggests that Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was insufficient for salvation. Anyone who disparages the cross is teaching another gospel. The destiny of such teachers is destruction (Philippians 3:19). Based upon Christ’s atonement for their sins, Christians are not going to hell. Therefore, no enemy of the cross can be a brother in Christ.' ____________________ DOCTRINAL AMBIGUITY OF A WANDERING STAR: THE CHANGING VIEWS OF JOYCE MEYER by G. Richard Fisher and Paul R. Belli To read more go to: (http://www.pfo.org/wan-star.htm) |
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458 | The genuine gospel Jesus preached | 1 Cor 15:1 | Radioman2 | 85745 | ||
"Do you really know what constitutes the genuine Gospel that Jesus and His Apostles preached?" This question was asked by goodnewsminister in his post ID# 85505. My reply (ID# 85506): 'Do I really know what constitutes the genuine Gospel that Jesus and His Apostles preached? Yes, I do and it is NEITHER the gospel according to Jehovah's Witnesses NOR is it that of the 'Jehovah' of the Watchtower Society. Nor is it to be found in the New World Mis-translation of the Bible.' |
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459 | Avoid quarreling about non-essentials | Eph 4:5 | Radioman2 | 85744 | ||
"Avoid quarreling about non-essentials" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'What is Christianity? ____________________ 'How do you make sense of the different denominations with everybody saying their way is right? Some distinctions to help you avoid quarreling about non-essentials. ____________________ 'There are two different issues. First, if Christianity happens to be true in the broader sense, how do you make sense of the different denominations with everybody saying their way is right? Second, what are the basics of Christianity? 'With regards to the first question, some people like to overplay this issue. "Five thousand different denominations and everybody claims their way is right." It is true that those who belong to a particular denomination do so because they think the details of the teachings in that denomination are accurate. Who would want to belong to a denomination they thought was teaching falsehood? But this question over-emphasizes the differences. 'I found a very helpful metaphor for the person who likes to complain about all the denominations. There are many different baseball teams and each team has a coach. Each coach coaches according to a certain set of principles. Those principles are the ones he thinks are the best for producing the best team. He differs with many coaches with regards to that. He could say that his way is right, but the others think their way is right. The fact is, they are all still playing baseball and they are playing with the same set of fundamental rules. Within the context of those rules, there are a number of variations in emphases and strategies that can be expressed in the way the game is played, but the fundamental game is still the same. Christianity is much like that. There is a fundamental core of beliefs and teachings that identify any particular denomination as being Christian. That is why we call them Christian denominations. It may be that these denominations differ in regards to the finer points--points that may be moot or debatable. 'For instance, how do you baptize a person? Do you dip them, do you sprinkle them, or do you fully immerse them? There are different points of view. People have an idea about what is right and they follow that in their particular denomination. Few would say that it really makes a critical difference whether you are dipped, sprinkled or immersed. Most would say that Christianity teaches baptism and that is something we all agree on. Even if you are baptized in a slightly different way, it doesn't mean the baptism doesn't count. 'Most of the differences in denominations are similar to this kind of thing. Do you worship on Saturday or on Sunday? In the morning or the evening? Do you use instruments or no instruments? Should you have a choir? Should you teach topically or verse by verse? How do you baptize? What are your particular views about the way salvation is mediated by God? How about the Holy Spirit? Do you speak in tongues or not? These are more peripheral issues to the fundamental superstructure of what C. S. Lewis called "mere Christianity." 'When it gets to mere Christianity, the basics and fundamentals are rather few. All Christians agree on the basics and fundamentals. If they don't, they are not called Christians. 'By the way, this is what separates Mormons from Christians. Mormons disagree on those fundamental issues and that is why they have to be called something other than Christian. 'My point simply is that the variations that people point to are somewhat smaller and incidental and are debatable issues. They aren't the kinds of things that undermine the basic truth claims of Christianity as a whole. The fundamental truth claims of Christianity as a whole are rather basic. Christianity stands or falls on those things, and not on the parochial particulars. 'What are the fundamental truth claims of Christianity? 'The particulars of mere Christianity entail four basic things: '1. Your view of God , '2. your view of creation , '3. your view of man , and '4. your view of salvation .' ____________________ What is Christianity? by Gregory Koukl To read more go to: (http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/whatis.htm) |
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460 | can a women preach and teach men | 1 Tim 2:12 | Radioman2 | 85724 | ||
Joyce Meyer teaches "the necessity of Jesus having to pay for our sins in hell, under the torment of Satan and his angels -- a teaching both unsubstantiated by and contrary to Scripture." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'Joyce Meyer shares the platform from time to time with Word of Faith teachers like, for example, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, and T.D. Jakes.(5) Chrisitan Research Institute (CRI) is critical of and concerned with some of her practices and teachings. 'In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, she teaches a hallmark doctrine of Faith theology, namely, that Christ had to suffer in hell to atone for our sins and be born again: "During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin….He paid the price there.…no plan was too extreme…Jesus paid on the cross and in hell….God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead -- the first born-again man.(6)" 'Her assertions are not unlike those of leading Word of Faith proponent Kenneth Copeland, who also believes Christ’s death on the cross was not sufficient to atone for our sins, and that His work of redemption was completed by suffering in hell and being born again. According to Copeland, "When Jesus cried, “It is finished!” He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne….Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption.(7) "[The] word of the living God went down into the pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles….Jesus was born again -- the first-born from the dead.(8)" 'According to a recently published interview with free-lance writer Ken Walker, however, Meyer contradictorily denies ever believing or teaching that Christ was born again in hell.(9) 'Moreover, in her 1991 booklet, Meyer asserts that salvation is impossible without believing Jesus suffered in hell as the believer’s substitute. Meyer writes, “There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”(10) 'While historic Christianity has debated the issue of whether or not Jesus actually descended into hell (e.g., to proclaim the gospel, declare victory, etc. [1 Peter 3:18-19), no orthodox believer ever held to the belief that Christ suffered and atoned for our sins in hell, rather than on the cross. 'Yet, Word of Faith teachers, including Joyce Meyer, teach the necessity of Jesus having to pay for our sins in hell, under the torment of Satan and his angels -- a teaching both unsubstantiated by and contrary to Scripture. The entirety of Christ’s atoning work (i.e., His suffering and death in our place) occurred on the cross (e.g., 1 Peter 2:24), ending with His proclamation, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The Christ of Faith theology literally had to become sin, taking on the nature of Satan while in hell, thereby needing to be born again in hell before His resurrection could occur.' (To read the entire, uncut article quoted above, please go to: http://www.equip.org/search/ and in the search field enter the words Joyce Meyer.) |
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