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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
401 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76215 | ||
Those you mention in Matthew 7 are never said to have been at any point "in the faith" which makes it unlike 1 Tim. 4:1 where it is said they "shall depart from the faith" The term "the faith" does not signify a mere professed faith, but being singular with the article before it, Paul probably assumed the readers would know which faith he was speaking of. I believe when he said "the faith" (singular)he was talking about the one true faith which is in Christ Jesus. Elsewhere in Scripture Paul says: "there is one Lord, one faith" I think the same thing applys here. Paul in his wriitings was speaking of the one true faith in the one true Lord that saves. Not a mere profession of faith as some believe. Thats the way I see it. I could quote you many verses and portions of Scripture which speak of forfeiting ones faith as being real. Not imagined or hypothetical as many theologians would attempt to have us believe. But rather than post numerous verses which seem to only create added confusion in the discussions, I found it to be better to limit the number of verses in discussions with those who disagree. Blessings New Creature |
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402 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76203 | ||
John I could not help but notice that your answer skipped by Jude 21. I don't know whether or not that was intentional on your part or not,and you still seem to avoiding the original question. That question was: Why are the beloved admonished to "keep yourselves in the love of God" Jude 21, if it is impossible to be separated from his love as you believe? God Bless New Creature |
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403 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76154 | ||
John All of Scripture not a few selected verses indicate the very real possibility of an individual departing from the faith he once held. 1 Tim. 4:1 says "in the latter days some will depart from the faith" If I'm correct, you need to first be "in the faith" before you can depart from it. I cannot depart from a height I never previuosly attained. Also you added Gal 3:3 which says "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now BEING PERFECTED by the flesh?" Now there is a verse which asks if we are made perfect by the flesh? In contrast read what James says: "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith MADE PERFECT?" Now I think we both would agree that there is no contradiction between Paul and James. Least I don't find any. We should not take a few selected verses which appear to support our denominations theology, but accept all of Scripture inspite of what any denomination would lead us to believe Blessings New Creature |
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404 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76152 | ||
I have read the entire book of Jude many many times, and have even led small group Bible studies on this Epistle. Some theologians in their articles have even labeled the Epistle of Jude, The Acts of the Apostates. In Jude 3 Jude tells about how it was his intention to write to you of the common salvation, instead he felt it was more needful to write to exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith. In verse 4 Jude informs us that ungodly men had crept in unaware to them and were turning the grace of our God into laciviousness. Antinomianism was being taught.. Rather than do a commentary on the whole Epistle of Jude continuing to read the rest of it, one cannot help but see acts of apostasy, and the judgement of God upon those who apostasized. Beginning in verse 20 we find Jude adomonishing the believers and telling them of their responsibility to continue to build their selves up on their most holy faith and to keep theirselves in the love of God. Verse 24 speaks of God's ability to keep them from falling. I personally believe what is meant by "he is able to keep you from falling" is; those who remain surrendered and yielded unto Him, can rest assured that God's ability to keep them from falling will be the result. For those who refuse to yield themselves over to God, God's ability to keep them is still available, it's just that the individual that remains unyielded will not allow God's ability to keep them. We are not puupets. Just because we are saved does not mean we still can't make a choice to walk away from the faith and turn our back on God. That possibilty is not imagined but is real and is Scriptural as Jude and all of Scripture indicates. So how do you read it? Blessings New Creature |
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405 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76090 | ||
Joe One of the many questions that still needs to be answered is: "Why does Jude 21 warn us to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if the possibility of separation from God's love is impossible?" Grace Peace and Love New Creature |
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406 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76012 | ||
BradK You asked ." In all fairness, could I not say the same of the "group that believes that salvation can be forfeited?" To that I say, yes you could. Secondly you ask What is untrue of Romans 8:28-39?" "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." To that I answer all Scripture is true. Individual's intrepretation of the true meaning of Scripture is what is in question. "Certainly, one of the most commonly misunderstood passages in the Bible is Rom. 8:38,39, as commonly presented by the eternal security teachers of our day. These two often-mentioned verses say:" "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." "In quoting this passage, the eternal security adherents argue that it proves that once we are saved we are always saved; and even though "sin" isn't mentioned in Paul's list, it is understood to be included, hence no sin committed after initial salvation will condemn a person!" "there is a definite DIFFERENCE between the "LOVE" of God as mentioned in Rom. 8:38,39 and the "LIFE" of God, according to Scripture! This is easily proven by noting that UNSAVED people are LOVED by God, even though they are devoid of His LIFE! A clear case in point is the rich, young ruler who was certainly UNSAVED, yet LOVED by Jesus (Mk.10:21)!" "It must be further noted that this same unsaved man, like all unsaved people, are separated from the LIFE of God," (Eph. 4:18) but, again, not separated from His LOVE! Since one only has salvation when he has the LIFE of God, Rom. 8:38,39 does NOT assure an unconditional salvation on the basis of God's infinite love!" "Relationships are ongoing dynamic sort of things which take two (at least partially) willing persons. Someone might argue that this immoral wife still had some legal standing with her husband, but most of us would admit that a pattern of continual and repeated purposeful acts of rebellion would end the two-way-ness of the relationship." "My love might live on, but my marriage relationship would be dead." "Why does Jude 21 warn us to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if the possibility of separation from God's love is impossible?" "In John 15:10 Jesus makes the same point again by inference, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." "1. God's love IS unconditional." "There is nothing that can separate us from God's love. In fact, God's love was extended to us while we were still sinners...even while we were yet unborn! There is nothing...nothing I can do to make God quit loving me. He can't not love me. His love is both unconditional and irrevocable. And it's not based in any way whatsoever on what I do. God loves because God is love." 2. My relationship with God is conditional. "While His love is unconditional, my relationship with God is two-way. Love can be unilateral. A relationship, however, is bilateral. For instance, I could insist that nothing my wife could ever do would change my love-I love her unconditionally and irrevocably, yet a true relationship is two-way. What if she were to walk out on me, and run off with another man, totally rejecting me and everything I stood for? Would I still love her? Yes, I could love her, if my love were unconditional. But would we still have a relationship? That's another question." "A relationship is bilateral-"it takes two." Love can go one way, but a relationship is two-way. Relationships are ongoing dynamic sort of things which take two (at least partially) willing persons." "Someone might argue that this immoral wife still had some legal standing with her husband, but most of us would admit that a pattern of continual and repeated purposeful acts of rebellion would end the two-way-ness of the relationship." "My love might live on...but my marriage relationship would be dead. Relationships are not unilateral." "A continual pattern of purposeful premeditated disobedience will indeed eventually harden into an attitude of rebellion and defiance which can break off our two-way relationship with God." All the above quoted from an unknown source Grace peace and love New Creature |
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407 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 75976 | ||
Robert We cannot take only one verse of God's word and based our entire theology upon a single verse. "he that believeth" in the verse you posted denotes a continious belief, not a belief in a moment of time. It could better be read he that continues to believe in me has (present possession) eternal life. God Bless New Creature |
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408 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75875 | ||
Joe I am not one of those advocates that attempt to argue that one can be born again and again. As you stated concerning the passages in Hebrews indeed do mitigate against that idea. I agree. I personally believe that we are made spiritually alive only once. And that it is possible for such a person to die a spiritual death only once. Nevertheless spiritual death is just as real as physical death. God Bless New Creature |
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409 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75871 | ||
Joe since you asked "new birth (does one become "un-born again"?)" Let me respond and answer with a quote I found concerning that question. "I have listened many times to an explanation of eternal security based upon the analogy of sonship. "My child is born into my family and he will always be my child. He cannot be unborn. Whether obedient or disobedient, he will always be my child." This reasoning avoids the central issue. The question is not whether a child can be "unborn" but whether it can sicken and die. Doctors do not admonish parents about the dangers of their child being "unborn" but rather about proper care of the child to keep it from dying.In fact if the baby is not fed it will soon die. In the same way, Jesus said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53 (from a source unknown to me) Beacause of what many verses of the Bible state, I have no choice but to believe that a person who HAS BEEN MADE ALIVE SPIRITUALLY, can also die spiritually. Spiritual death, is just as real as physical death. God Bless New Creature |
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410 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75805 | ||
Joe Many people are taught many things through mistakes they have made. That does not mean you can undo the mistake that has been committed. It also may be possible that they were being taught a lesson, just like Ananias and his wife Sapphira were being taught so that others may fear and not make the same mistake. So as I see it Paul was not trying to say it was possible for Hymenaeus and Alexander to be renewed to repentance a second time, (Heb. 6:4-6) any more that it would be likely for the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira to be undone. Either way those are my assumptions vs. your assumptions about the text in question since the text does not specifically say what either of us has implied thus far. Based on that the imagery of a shipwreck and what it depicts about being completely and finally lost and ruined in the depths is a more likely senario that seems at least to me to agree with 1 Tim. 1:18-20 I do however appreciate and respect your opinions on this topic. Check out the following rendering of the text in this debate. It might give us another clue to the meaning or at least some fuel for more discussion. 1 Timothy 1 18 My son Timothy, here is what I tell you to do. And it is what the prophets said about you before. Remember their words, and fight like a good soldier. 19 Keep on believing. Do only what you know is right. Some people have not done that and they have stopped believing. 20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them. I have given them to Satan so that they will be punished and learn not to teach things that do not respect God. (Worldwide English New Testament) God Bless New Creature |
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411 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75768 | ||
Joe concerning the imagery of a shipwreck. If a ship gets blown up into the shallows and rocky reefs, the waves will batter that ship upon the rocks until it is completely broken up and destoyed to an unrepairable state. That is the picture I believe Paul is trying to convey to the readers in 1 Tim 1:18-20. Joe you stated: "How do you reconcile Paul talking about teaching Hymenaeus and Alexander not to blaspheme (i.e. to repent)" I don't see where you equate "blaspheme" with "repent" I don't see where these two individuals in the text were told to repent. I personally don't see how anyone who has made shipwreck of his faith could repent again since Heb. 6:4-6 says it is immpossible for those who have fallen away (apostazied) to be renewed a second time to repentance. When they made shipwreck, their faith was sunk. And it became impossible to renew them again. Their fall was final and complete. Thats the way I see it But I thank you for your thoughts on this even if we do not see eye to eye concerning this. God Bless New Creature |
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412 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75650 | ||
Joe said "The question is whether those who are "cut off" from God's covenant blesssings were ever truly saved in the first place." Here is a quote from a source unknown to me I will add as a rebuttal and for your input as well. "Paul wrote about some who "made ship-wreck of their faith" (1 Tim. 1:19,20) unlike many in our day Paul did not say of these who shipwrecked their faith, they were never really saved to begin with." Blessings New creature |
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413 | predestined? | John 3:16 | New Creature | 75155 | ||
Tim Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to reply. I will get back with you after I have done an more in-depth study of this topic. You have been a great help Grace Peace and Love New Creature |
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414 | predestined? | John 3:16 | New Creature | 75152 | ||
Tim Thank you again for your reply. If I believe that election is conditional to "whosoever believeth" (which I do). Then would that not mean that election is also individual to all the "whosoevers?" I mentioned that I am presently engrossed in Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible. I am currently wading my way through Romans Chapter 8 of this commentary. As soon as I get to chapters 9-11 I will see if Adam Clarke sheds any light on the topic of "election" I guess I will also have to get a copy of "Elect in the Son" Grace Peace and Love New Creature |
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415 | predestined? | John 3:16 | New Creature | 75122 | ||
Tim Thank you for that reply. I don't disagree with what your saying, however it leaves me hanging out on a limb wondering if God has one plan of salvation for the Jews and an altogether different plan of salvation for Gentiles. I even agree that Rom. 8:29 is in reference to the nation of Israel. Isn't the plan of salvation the same whether corperately or individually? Is it not true that individauls whom God also foreknows, predestined, and called to salvation by the grace of God? Concerning Robert Shank; I have read his book "Life in the Son" but have not as yet got around to reading his other book "Elect in the Son" although it is on my list of books I intend to read in the future. At the moment I have been engrossed in Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible. Grace Peace and Love New Creature |
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416 | predestined? | John 3:16 | New Creature | 75080 | ||
Praism Welcome to the forum I enjoyed your response and thank you for taking the time to reply. I feel honored by the fact that you chose to select my question to be the first one you would respond to. It is my hope that in the future I will get to read many more of your replys to various questions, either from myself, or from others. I am going to repost one of the verses that you selected in your reply to me, then ask you another question if you don't mind. Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He PREDESTINED, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. In that verse I see that "foreknowledge" precedes "predestined" So considering that fact, would you be inclined to agree or disagree that the reason anyone is predestined is because God looked through the corridors of time and foreknew who would receive the free offer of salvation, and who would not? Grace Peace and Love New Creature |
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417 | predestined? | John 3:16 | New Creature | 75036 | ||
Joe Thank you for directing me to a previous post that deals with the topic of election, and predestination. I read the entire article, and while it was very interesting, it still didn't appear to answer the question - "Is a man predestinated by God to salvation because he believes in Christ or is he enabled to believe in Christ because he is predestinated?" In that two part question, I personally tend to be in more of agreement with the first half of the question - "man is predestinated by God to salvation because he believes in Christ" The reason I would be more likely to agree with the first half are: God in His foreknowledge knows before hand by looking through the corridors of time who would accept the free offer of His grace and who would reject it. At this time I cannot accept any concept of God and His mercy and love which selects some for salvation, and the rest He passes over. From what I have learned in Scripture God's love extends to all His creatures. But not all His creatures love Him in return. The fact that not all His creatures love Him in return cannot be the fault of God, but of men exercising their God given freedom of choice. I can't see where God sends anyone to hell. It seems to me, that those who finally end up in hell, go there because they have rejected the light and the free offer of salvation. Since - "the true Light, lights every man (without exclusion) that cometh into the world." 1 John 1:9 Grace Love and Peace |
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418 | To whom do we belong? | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 74276 | ||
Joe I'm sorry that I am just now getting around to responding to you. Please forgive me. I truly enjoyed this well thought out reply from you. After reading it and then re-reading it, the only comment I might be able to possibly add to it is to say I fully agree with what you stated. Finally - If I ever did find the perfect church, I couldn't attend it, because once I began attending it, then it would no longer be perfect, since I have not acheived a state of perfection. I am only in a state of being made more perfect. Grace love and peace New Creature |
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419 | To whom do we belong? | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 74262 | ||
John Let me respond to the following comments you made. "Did you recieve the gos[el from a person who taught you what it is or by learning it yourself from private reading of the Bible." In my personal salvation experience, I had been prayerfully reading my Bible, and desired to know what a certain passage meant. After reading and re-reading the same text over and over again, I got down on my knees and agonized in prayer for God to give me understanding concerning the text. I read it again, and the scripture became plain as if someone had removed the scales from my eyes. Just as it says in scripture - "Luke 24:45 - Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures" Then after my understanding came of this initial text, I began reading Romans, then Proverbs, and other books of the Bible. I was amazed. The Bible had come to life for me. I couldn't put it down. And still can't. Now I am not attempting to say that I have perfect understanding. I don't. But I find that I am continuing to grow in my understanding of scripture. The hard part comes - how do I applt it in my daily living? "Most likely you heard it from someone else. My point is that though no teacher is perfect, he may be used by God as a means of opening one's eyes to unexpected spiritual truth." "To throw the baby out with the bathwater is foolish." I agree. But this brings to my mind a recent quote I saw which said - Studying theology will make one a theologian, but it cannot make one a saint" There is some truth to that quote. "On top of that, refusing to listen to others more mature in the faith and trained and educated in languages, history and hermenuetics will isolate a person from the rest of the body." I again agree. I just think we have to be careful to compare what is being said with what scripture says. We need to examine all things. "Do you go to church?" Yes I have been attending the same church now for 13 years and am a member. But I have recently vistied other churches of various denominations as well. "Do you listen to the preacher?" Of course. Our current preacher is a wonderful man of God. His messages, are I believe Bibically accurate, and he practices what he preaches. I sense that his desire is to preach more meaty messages, but there seems to be a majority who either are not able at this time to digest meat, or merely have itching ears for sugar-coated messages. "Have you learned nothing from others?" Yes I have. There are many in here who I have learned a nugget of truth from, as well as other various teachers. But I found that other teachers whom I once trusted in during my baby-hood in the faith, could no longer be trusted, because I began to spot obivious errors in their commentaries as I began to mature in the faith. "Or are you an mouth that has no use for an ear?" Actually I currently am a better ear, because my mouth gets me in to too much hot water. I have to work on that a bit. Quite a bit actually. "I do not mean to be cruel; but you are on the fringe of what many believe the Bible to say. God has not made us "lone rangers" but has incorporated us into one body "the church". I also don't mean to come off sounding mean, or as a know it all, because I don't know the half as yet. You say I'm on the fringe of what many believe. I am reminded of a quote I saw from Tozer which said. "in any generation, the majority are probably wrong" And the Bible says - Narrow is the way, and few there be which find it" Matt. 7:14 Grace, love and peace New Creature |
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420 | To whom do we belong? | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 74259 | ||
Piper The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the gospel message to each individual who trusts that He is able to do so. Sola Scriptura New Creature |
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