Results 221 - 240 of 629
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Results from: Notes Author: Lionstrong Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
221 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20119 | ||
"...And all the trees of the field will clap their hands." Isa 55:12 Dear Sir Pent, I referenced that verse (Mat 10:16) in my first post and gave my opinion. Please review it and give me your thoughts. But I think the real issue is what is man. If one agrees that what sets man apart from the animal is the image of God, AND that the image of God is rationality, then the issue of animal rationallity would be settled. My post was to make that issue explicit. Animals are not the image of God and are therefore not rational. This is in contrast to what our culture wants us to believe, namely, that there is no qualitative difference between man, machine, and animal. So, if you're not convinced by the clear and explicit Scripture I quoted about the non-rationality of animals, then we must go to the threads (or start our own) which discuss the image of God. So, Sir Pent, do you agree that it is the image of God that sets man apart from the animal? Peace, Lionstrong |
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222 | Enter the Dragon! | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20187 | ||
Dear Jensen, I will answer your question by asking you to go back to the top of the thread and discuss the questions I have posted there. Peace, Lionstrong | ||||||
223 | Enter the Dragon! | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20188 | ||
Dear Jensen, I have yet to fulfil my promise to give a more complete summary of my view on science, but you can get the gist of what I think by looking under to posts on Joshua's long day. (Josh 10:12) | ||||||
224 | What fruit did Eve eat from the tree? | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20257 | ||
What fruit it was is not important. What is important is that it led to us being born in sin and under the wrath of God. But the seed of the woman (Christ) has crushed the head of the serpent (Satan), and in that Seed we can be saved from the wrath of God and restored FOREVER to a loving fellowship with the Father if believe in his Son, the Seed of the woman. Welcome to the Forum, NasMan! Lionstrong |
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225 | Enter the Dragon! | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20292 | ||
Thank you, Jensen, 2) The weakness of analogies is that they can be extended beyond the purpose of the author. So is the case here. Paul's point in Rom 9 is that the thing made has no say in what it is or the purposes the potter has for it. That's the extent of his analogy. You've taken the potter and put him in a community of other men. This extends the analogy into areas that Paul does not extend it. To so extend it would put God into a community of gods. In Paul's analogy God is the potter and EVERYTHING else are the things made. So there is no one else to harm. He makes what he wants to make for the purpose he wants to make them. The things made have no say. And in the case of God, there is no one else in his community (there are no other gods) to harm with his vessels. 3) We're of one mind here! But of course you see that this has implications on the first question. 4) Again, we walk together, but again be mindful of the implications! 5) Although I don't share you view of science, your explanation does not hold water. The buckets in this case are spiritual not physical. So even if physical bodies are affected temporally by gravity, pure spiritual beings cannot be. If what you offered is SCIENTIFIC proof, it is proof that applies to the physical reality only, because that is all the reality with which science can deal. 1) Not all evil is sin, because not all evil is moral. The evil that destroyed the World Trade Center towers was moral. The evil of floods, earthquakes and volcanoes is amoral. So it is with the “good” creation. As I explained to Steve, I think it was Steve, this also is not a moral good. God created light on the first day and esteemed it good. Morally good? No, light is amoral! It was good in that it was exactly the way God wanted it to be, and he was pleased with it. So it was at the conclusion of the sixth day; it was all very good. But this is all beside the point, because we are talking about a creature who IS morally evil! Would it be contrary to God's goodness (moral and otherwise) for him to create a wicked creature? The implications of your answers to 3) and 4), with which I agree, is no. To answer to your question, did God in fact create Satan as such; I can give the politically discrete answer of saying that the Scripture does not make that point explicit, but it would not be contrary to the goodness of God if he had created Satan evil. Peace, Lionstrong |
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226 | The Serpent's Class | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20449 | ||
Point taken, Sir Pent. ......... but at this point the serpent had not been cursed to a life of low crawling, which why I don't believe it was in the class of creeping things. .............. Thanks, Lionstrong |
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227 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20451 | ||
Animals obviously do not think, Sir Pent. For if they did we'd be in trouble! At least I wouldn't wearing leather shoes! | ||||||
228 | What fruit did Eve eat from the tree? | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20452 | ||
Sorry, NazMan. I see your point too. And your answer to the question was a good one. Usually when people ask the question, they want to know if it's a banana, apricot, or kiwi fruit, which is of very little significance. ........ Peace, Lionstrong | ||||||
229 | What fruit did Eve eat from the tree? | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20456 | ||
Well, be careful, NazMan! Things can get pretty hot around here! But, nonetheless, I enjoy this communion over God's Word. ....... Peace, Lionstrong | ||||||
230 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20458 | ||
Animals obviously do not think, Sir Pent. For if they did we'd be in trouble! At least I wouldn't wearing leather shoes! | ||||||
231 | The Serpent's Class | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20460 | ||
Point taken, Sir Pent. ......... but at this point the serpent had not been cursed to a life of low crawling, which why I don't believe it was in the class of creeping things. .............. Thanks, Lionstrong |
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232 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20725 | ||
Is 1:3 "An ox knows its owner, And a donkey its master's manger, But Israel does not know, My people do not understand." Confused you are, dear Sir Pent! 1)Your definition of rational is acceptable. Your problem is that you confuse what animals do instinctively with rationality. 2)I meant my comment to be humorous, but I was serious about the implications. Let me confuse you even more, Sir Pent. "Using ones brains" is only a metaphor for thinking. Further, our (man's) mental processes can be called thought, while those of animals cannot. Maybe this is a further confusion on your part, to think that any mental process is rational. (Refer to the Scripture given above on the non-rationality of animals.) The mental processes of animals are instinctive and non-rational. Contrary to your belief stated above, tigers do not calculate angles and dogs do not associate things in an orderly manner. These things are a--I don't know the right word--personified description of what animals instinctively do, but they are truly not done rationally. You already understand my original idea: animal intelligence is not rational. You don't, however, agree with my reason for making this point explicit, that the image of God is rationality. If you did, we wouldn't be having this debate. You say that the image of God is more than rationality. Maybe, but even if it is, it does not mean animals have it. But if you're still not convinced, teach your dog English and how to type, and I'll carry on this debate with him! Peace, Lionstrong |
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233 | Enter the Dragon! | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20740 | ||
"His Word does not prove" my point, dear Jensen, Because you have missed my point. The point was NOT to prove that God created Satan evil, my friend. What was at issue, as clearly stated at the beginning of the thread, is “how would it be contrary to the goodness of God for God to have created Satan evil.” For me it was sufficient to show that it isn’t contrary to the absolute goodness of God. So the cosmic fairy tale made up about the fall of Satan on the basis of the Ezk and Isa passages do not apply to the issues of this discussion. (See my response to CDBJ above.) Again, thank you for an enjoyable exchange over God’s precious Word. Peace, Lionstrong |
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234 | The Serpent's Class | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20776 | ||
Phil 2:5 Have this attitude (mind, KJV) in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ........Dear Sir Pent, ........... Even as a child I've been intrigued with this true historical account. It shaped my view of the world I lived in, as God's word should. When I looked at a snake, I thought of that serpent in the Garden. Then I'd think, in my childish way, "You haven't always been that way. At one time you didn't crawl and lick the dust." ....... Peace, Lionstrong | ||||||
235 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20778 | ||
Prov 17:22 A joyful heart is good medicine, But a broken spirit dries up the bones. ........ Thanks, Hank ......... Lionstrong |
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236 | The Serpent's Class | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20779 | ||
Phil 2:5 Have this attitude (mind, KJV) in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ........Dear Sir Pent, ........... Even as a child I've been intrigued with this true historical account. It shaped my view of the world I lived in, as God's word should. When I looked at a snake, I thought of that serpent in the Garden. Then I'd think, in my childish way, "You haven't always been that way. At one time you didn't crawl and lick the dust." ....... Peace, Lionstrong | ||||||
237 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20873 | ||
2 Tim 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Thanks Charis, Actually, I thought I was doing pretty well about not discussing the meaning of words... this time! Any synonym for rational would have done. So my argument has continued to be that animals are not (fill in the blank). This is the sole possession of God, angels and men. An evangelist (now with the Lord) used a graph that I thought was helpful. He drew a horizontal line, and above the line he wrote God. Below the line he wrote creation. He said that below the line we are as much a creature as the rocks. This was the line of creation. Then He drew another line, the line of the personal. Now, what we have above the line is God, men and angels, and below the line everything else. In terms of preaching the Gospel to men of today’s culture, they must understand that their identity is upward not downward. The dignity and greatness of man is that he is made in the image of God. And the image of God is rationality or reason, discursive knowledge or whatever words you want to use to describe real thought. This, animals do not possess. Peace, Lionstrong |
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238 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20937 | ||
James 3:7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. Yes, I was aware of Koko and Pavlov, Sir Pent: Koko's amazing display of gorilla intelligence does not, however, prove that she has rational thought processes. It is an attestation to her trainers' skill and patience. But Koko will never sign (pun intended) her memoirs at the end of her life. If fact, not being rational, she'll have no appreciation for her personal history or of her coming death. Animals, while they have an instinctive terror of being hurt, have no fear of death or non-being. This is a quality which only rational creatures have (Matt 8:29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?") I read your post under my answer to Charis. No, you do not see. My evangelist friend was using “personal” in the sense that we’ve been using rational. Again, Sir Pent, we DO disagree. It is not a problem of terminology. And one last point: Jesus calling the serpent shrewd (Mat. 10:16) is an anthropopathism, which is what animal lovers do all the time! I’ve enjoyed our exchange, but I think we’ve reached an impasse. Maybe when I can make my case stronger (or yours weaker!) we’ll come back to this. Peace, Lionstrong |
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239 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 21061 | ||
Intelligence? Yes. Rationallity? No, dear Sir Pent. Human communication is the transference and reception of thought from one to another. Since animals do not think, no thoughts are transferred, and no communication takes place. Further, regarding Mat. 10:16, and to strengthen to point that Jesus was speaking anthropopathically about animals, not only are serpents not shrewd, but doves are not innocent. In order to be innocent one must be a moral agent. Animals are amoral creatures. God does not judge them for sinning, because they CANNOT sin. In order to sin, one must be a moral agent. In order to be a moral agent, one must understand moral commands. In order to understand moral commands, one must understand the thoughts communicated in the moral commands. In order to understand thoughts, one must be rational. Therefore, doves are not innocent because doves (and all animals) are not rational. Peace, Lionstrong |
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240 | An Animal Spoke to Eve | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 22182 | ||
I'm not posting this as a questions, because I think there are no answers to these question. Just something to think about. ........ Did Eve think it strange that an animal was talking? Was she surprised when it spoke to her? If not, why not? Where in the garden were they when it spoke to her? ...... Peace, Lionstrong, a.k.a. LooseCannon |
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