Results 1141 - 1160 of 1443
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Results from: Notes Author: Emmaus Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1141 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 58867 | ||
John, Here are the footnotes from the article I cited. you may have noticed the numbers in the text of my previous post. It will take two posts. This is Part I. "33. Many Calvinists prefer the phrase "preservation of the saints" since it puts emphasis on God's preservation of the saints rather than on the saints' efforts in persevering (which is thought to smack of "works-salvation"). This often results in a "holier-than-thou" attitude ("Look how holy I am; I place the emphasis on God's action, not man's"). But Scripture normally uses a human point of view. It calls men to repent, have faith, convert, and persevere. When one insists on preservation-language over perseverance-language, one is actually taking a holier-than-thou attitude, because the one who wrote Scripture used perseverance-language more than preservation-language. In effect one is playing spiritual one-upmanship with Scripture and the one who wrote Scripture. 34. This differs from the "once saved, always saved" teaching common in Baptist circles. According to that theory, a person never can lose his salvation, no matter what he does. Even if he leaves the faith and renounces Christ he will be saved. Perseverance of the saints states that, while a person will lose his salvation if he fails to persevere in faith and holiness, all who do come to God will persevere. If a person does not persevere, it shows he did not come to God in the first place. Passages such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21, which say a person will not inherit the kingdom if he commits certain sins, are understood to mean that, if one habitually commits these sins, he was never a true Christian, no matter how sincere he appeared. Both "once saved, always saved" and perseverance of the saints teach "eternal security," but they are not the same. Calvinism admits there are mortal sins, such as failure to persevere, but says that no one who is saved commits these sins. "Once saved, always saved" says no sins would be mortal for a Christian, even in principle. 35. Elements of these responses are brought together in Luke 15, where the prodigal son begins as a son, then leaves the family and is spoken of by the father as "dead," only to return to the family and be spoken of as being "alive again" (Luke 15:24, 32). Christ teaches we can be sons, die spiritually by severing our ties to the family, then come back and be alive again--spiritually resurrected. 36. John 6:37-38 and 10:27-29 are taken out of context with John 15:1-6, which states Christians are branches in the vine which is Christ (v. 5), that God removes every branch from Christ which does not bear fruit (v. 2), and that the destiny of these branches is to be burned (v. 6). Romans 8:35-39 is taken out of context with Romans 11:20-24, where Paul compares spiritual Israel to an olive tree and states that since certain branches of spiritual Israel were broken off because of unbelief in Christ (v. 20), Christians will not be spared if they fall into unbelief (v. 21), but will be cut off (v. 22). The branches which had been broken off may be grafted in again (vv. 23-24). Romans 8:35-39 is also taken out of context with Romans 8:12f, 17, and 14:15, 20." footnotes from "A Tiptoe Through TULIP" by James Akin Emmaus |
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1142 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 58868 | ||
John, Part II of the foot notes for the part of the "article I previously posted. 37. For further discussion see Robert Shank, Life in the Son (Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1989) and Dale Moody, The Word of Truth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1981), 348ff. Both authors are Baptists who believe in conditional security, not eternal security. 38. For example, if a person was predestined to enter my living room, it would not mean he was predestined to remain forever in my living room. 39. Catholic theology has defined "predestined" to mean "predestined to final salvation." Thus those who will end up with God in heaven are spoken of as "the predestined" or "the elect." That a person experiences salvation at some point does not mean he is among the predestined (those God has chosen to persevere to the end). 40. Once the philosophical issue is cleared up, we can evaluate the teaching of Scripture objectively. When we do so, it is clear there are numerous indications in the Bible that a person can lose salvation. We already have mentioned John 15:1-6, Romans 8:12f, 17, 11:20-24, and 14:15-20. There are many more. Robert Shank gives a list of eighty-five passages he believes will, if carefully interpreted in context, show that loss of salvation is possible; see Shank, 333-337. 41. I recognized this fact even when I was an ardent Protestant. 42. "Sanctification" and "saintification" are the same word in Greek. When one has been completely sanctified (made holy), one has become a saint in the fullest sense of the word. Since this happens only in heaven, it corresponds to the common Catholic usage of the term "saint." 43. Trent's Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "that great and special gift of final perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written: 'He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],' which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]." 44. Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; Molina said it always saves a person because God only gives it to those whom he knows will respond to it. But the effect is the same: The gift of final perseverance always works. 45. ST I:23:6. 46. ST I-II:109:10. 47. The fact Calvinists are not aware of this shows a lack of scholarship. Presbyterian theologian R. C. Sproul attempts to redefine Calvinism as the "Augustinian" view. While Calvin's view of predestination might be a variation of Augustine's view, the two are not the same. Augustine did not believe in Calvin's understanding of the "perseverance of the saints," and neither did the broadly Augustinian tradition. That understanding was new with Calvin. For an accurate historical discussion of perseverance of the saints, see J. J. Davis's article "Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine," in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 34/2 (June 1991), 213-228. Davis is himself a Calvinist, and it is fitting a Calvinist help correct the errors of other Calvinists on the history of their doctrine." footnotes from "A Tiptoe Through TULIP" by James Akin Emmaus |
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1143 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59011 | ||
John, We apparently got different messages growing up since were are not far apart in age. I have been a Catholic all my 52 years and every year I lean more heavily on Jesus and God's grace. The "works" that Catholics do are works of grace done in Christ because of His grace. I have never been under the illusion or delusion that I could save myself by works. But someone professing to be a Christian in the ordinary context (i.e. not like the thief on the cross) without any works in Christ would seem to me to be to be bereft of grace and therefore not saved. The purpose of my post was to show both the similarities and difference between the Catholic and Calvinist approach to the subject of perseverence of the saints which was raised in your exchange with RespectHim. In some ways I think the two positions are much closer than some people would think. Emmaus |
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1144 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59012 | ||
John, I would agree with your straw man point. But that was not the whole of the argument being made, just a part of it. And it was not my personal argument, but part of one I cited. I included the footnotes so you could see the complete context and background of that section of a much larger article which I cited. I was appraching this as an academic exercise. Most of the arguments about grace, free will and perserverence of the saints on this forum take place between Calvinist and Arminian Protestants. Most people are not aware that there are two similar schools within the Catholic Church known as Thomist and Molinist. I was only trying to broaden the scope of the theological background on a particular subject area. Emmaus |
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1145 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59013 | ||
John, Aikin did not say that the calvinists position is based on analogies, only that they use them as a way of explaining their position (who doesn't?), nor did he say they were used to the exclusion of scriptural support. He later cited a few of verse used to support the Calvinist position. He merely says he does not agree with their interpretation and that there are other passages to support others positions. And those positions are often other Protestant positions, not necessarily Catholic as can be seen by a brief look at the archives of this forum. I don't think either of us are surprised we disagree in a number of ways on this subject. As I stated in a previous post, I was just trying to broaden the discussion beyond the boundaries of an in house debate already ongoing for a long time. Emmaus |
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1146 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59023 | ||
John, I can not speak for Arminians but I do not think the statement below is an accurate representation of Catholic doctrine. "Arminians believe that salvation rests in the hands of man. So do catholics"... John Here is the Council of Trent on three areas we have touched on: CHAPTER VIII HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46] 44. Rom. 3:24; 5:1. 45. Heb. 11:6. 46. Rom. 11:6. CHAPTER X THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56] This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays: "Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity."[57] 49. Eph. 2:19. 50. Ps. 83:8. 51. See 2 Cor. 4:16. 52. Col. 3:5. 53. Rom. 6:13, 19. 54. Apoc. 22:11. 55. Ecclus. 18:22. 56. James 2:24. 57. Thirteenth Sunday after Pentecost. CHAPTER XIII THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE Similarly with regard to the gift of perseverance, of which it is written: He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved,[75] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him stand who stands,[76] that he may stand perseveringly, and to raise him who falls, let no one promise himself herein something as certain with an absolute certainty, though all ought to place and repose the firmest hope in God's help. For God, unless men themselves fail in His grace, as he has begun a good work, so will he perfect it, working to will and to accomplish.[77] Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall,[78] and with fear and trembling work out their salvation,[79] in labors, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayer, in fastings and chastity. For knowing that they are born again unto the hope of glory,[80] and not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat that yet remains with the flesh, with the world and with the devil, in which they cannot be victorious unless they be with the grace of God obedient to the Apostle who says: We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die, but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.[81] 75. Matt. 10:22; 24:13. 76. Rom. 14:4. 77. Phil. 1:6, 2:13. 78. See 1 Cor. 10:12. 79. Phil. 2:12. 80. See 1 Pet. 1:3. 81. Rom. 8:12f. Emmaus |
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1147 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59026 | ||
John, All is forgiven. I have received much worse and sometimes with malice which I did not perceive in your posts. And I have been known to get a little testy myself on occassion. As for the document you mention about the evangelization of Jews, I have read an article on it.I will try to find the article and if it is on the web I will send you a link. You need to be aware first, that it does not represent the whole body of American bishops and it is a document of a small ecumenical commitee as I recall.I am not even certain of the exact language. This is the kind of thing that gives Catholics like me heart burn, because these kind of documents are not authoritative teaching of the universal Church, but are often perceived as or presented as such in the secular media. For authoritative teaching that got lots of people upset because it took a strong position on evangelization of all people see the declaration "Dominus Jesus" on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church, which reasserts that the mission of Chrit's Church is to evalgelize ALL people and condems indifferentism. You can see it at this link: http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM Emmaus |
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1148 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59111 | ||
John, I would not have much to disagree with you about on this post. It is true that the Catholic Church does not hold to Sola Fide. It is the Sola part it disputes, because its definition of faith includes the fruit of works as opposed to separating them. If you think of works in Christ and see where St. Paul says that three things last; faith, hope and charity (works in Christ) you can see how these three are bound together intrinsically by grace. And this without even bringing James into the picture. Another way to avoid what I comsider to be the false argument between Paul and James is to just look at how Paul opens and closes Romans talking about the "obedience of faith." What is that but works in Christ and an intrinsic part of faith? I sometimes think too much is made of these distinctions by category in theology, since the actual practice in the daily activities of life is often the same among believers who argue over the theological distinctions. EdB has expressed the same thought as you about penance. I can't for the life of me understand why you both see it that way. I don't see it in that light at all, but rather as an outward expression of turning back to God who calls us by His grace and getting back in tune with His grace. It seems a very biblical concept to me. I suspect it is the formal connection you see to a sacrament which you do not acknowledge that is off putting. I certainly know Born Again Protestants who have done and are doing penance for sins which have been forgiven, but they may not call it by that name or connect it with a sacrament. Emmaus |
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1149 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59122 | ||
Hi Joe, I am not surprised you disagree with Akin. If you did I would expect to be hearing strains of the "Te Deum" being sung in the background. But as I pointed out, and your exchanges with Arminians on this forum indicate, disagreement with significant aspects of Calvin's doctrine on grace, free will and perseverence of the saints is not just a Catholic thing. You may have noticed in the footnotes that all of Akin's references for his position were not Catholic. Particulary the reference to the Calvinist's author's book on the history of the doctrine of the preservation of the saints. That might be an interesting read. You were a little quiet on the forum for a while compared to your normal output. Have you heard from Hank lately? Emmaus |
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1150 | how to be saved | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 74649 | ||
disciplerami, "No, I did not put words into your mouth because the clear implication is that children are lost if they are born in sin - just ask all of the Lutherans and Catholics and they will tell you so." I can't speak for Lutherans, but the Catholic position is a little more subtle than the way you present it. In Catholic theology, original sin may prevent access to the Beatific Vision for unbaptised infants who die, (we can not know with certainty), but it does not damn those who have not committed actual (personal) sin. Below is the official teaching from the Catechism. Special notice should be given to the last sentence in paragraph 1257 and to paragraph 1261. "VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.[59] He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.[60] Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.[61] The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."[62] Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"[63] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism." The Catechism of the Catholic Church Emmaus |
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1151 | Who, besides the elect of God,are saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 74921 | ||
Ed, Joe and John, If I may be so bold, I would like to seriously recommend to all of you a book. It is: The Spirit and Forms of Protestanism by Louis Bouyer. You will all likely find the first six chapters very agreeable, chapters seven and eight less so, but they will shed a great deal of light on why you are having the same argument over and over again. I realize my recommendation may sink like a stone into oblivion, but it is a great book and not a light read. If you get it keep your Hi-Liters handy. Emmaus |
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1152 | relationship with God personal? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 76015 | ||
mOMMAPBS, "Peter Marshall's thought on death may interest you. He said, "Those we love are with the Lord; and the Lord has promised to be with us. If they are with Him, and He is with us, they cannot be far away."" Sounds a lot like the Communion of Saints. Emmaus |
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1153 | what are the levels of faith | Rom 10:17 | Emmaus | 124262 | ||
xlence0221, I was struck by how similar your post was to the statement I am posting beneath it. Can you guess the source of the second statement? Here is yours: " Paul wrote that faith comes by hearing and hearing comes through the word of God. James wrote faith without works is dead (jas 2:17). If you devote yourself to hearing the word of God and then go out do what you hear, you will naturally increase in faith not even realize it. Because your so caught up in your relationship with God you don't have time to think about your "level" of faith. Hearing the word God will cause you to think differently and when God can get you the think like he thinks, you will be transformed (Ro 12:2). You can't name the levels of faith because there are none. Faith is something that just is, and it either grows and multiplies or it becomes dormant and dies. So make the choice to increase in faith and grow closer to God." Here is the other statement: "Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[Eph. 2:19] advancing from virtue to virtue,[Ps. 83:8] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[See 2 Cor. 4:16] that is, mortifying the members[Col. 3:5] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[Rom. 6:13, 19] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still;[Rev. 22:11] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[James 2:24] This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays: "Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity." Emmaus |
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1154 | romans chapter 14 verse 5 | Rom 12:2 | Emmaus | 148687 | ||
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1155 | Governmental Authority? | Rom 13:1 | Emmaus | 74463 | ||
Montag, I think it is important to recognize that the Revolution folowed only upon a failure of King Georg to respond to the colonial demands for redress of greievances and that were requested by elected colonial asemblies who then voted to rebell only when other means of seeking justice were unsuccessful. This was not a mob action but a revolution undertaken by legitimate local governments representing the people. Emmaus |
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1156 | i would like some supporting ideas | Rom 13:11 | Emmaus | 93965 | ||
Psalm 23:4 "Yea, though I walk through the valley of death."' sometimes rendered "the valley of darkness." And John 1:5 "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." Ps 18:28 For You light my lamp; The LORD my God illumines my darkness. Ps 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Ps 132:17 "There I will cause the horn of David to spring forth; I have prepared a lamp for Mine anointed. Prov 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light; And reproofs for discipline are the way of life Prov 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoices, But the lamp of the wicked goes out. Emmaus |
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1157 | What is the account we will give? | Rom 14:12 | Emmaus | 89292 | ||
Mother Superior, May I suggest that Romans should be read in the context of Matthew 25:31-46. In fact all the Epistles should always be read within the light and context of the Gospels and the words of Jesus. And when there may be an apparent conflict (though there is not)one should alway defer to the Gospel for understanding. Emmaus |
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1158 | What of Paul | 1 Cor 1:1 | Emmaus | 76740 | ||
Sleep tight! Emmaus |
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1159 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Emmaus | 60710 | ||
John, "because God raised up men like Luther, Calvin, Knox and others who restored the gospel that Paul preached to the church of Jesus Christ! FAITH ALONE!" The problem with the above statement is that Paul never prerached Faith Alone and the concept as the Reformers taught it was never taught by the Church until Luther and Calvin arrived. The words "faith alone" are found nowhere in Paul only in James where it says, "we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE but by works," although James never says works alone any more than Paul says faith alone. You have to rework Paul's language to make it say more than it does to come out with faith alone. And then you have back track and say "we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone" as you said to Bubba, in order accomodate James. Why not just admit that saving faith for Paul is obedient faith (Rom 1:5; 16:26) that "works in love" (Eph 5:6) which is exactly the same point that James is making in his letter. A faith without works of love or works of obedient faith is dead and therefore no faith at all. To admit that takes nothing away from God since even faith and its intrinsic works come as a free gift by grace and therefore all the glory goes to God anyway. Emmaus |
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1160 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Emmaus | 60723 | ||
John, "If you wish to say that the atonement was insufficient to save, but that works of men were needed to to complete the work of Christ, I can't stop you." I said no such thing. Please do not put words into my mouth. It is bad enough that you put the word "alone" into Paul's mouth next to faith when it was never there. Check your concordance and Greek lexicon. Paul knew the word for alone and used it, put not ever with faith. If he wanted to say "faith alone" he could have and would have and the Holy Spirit would have inspired him to do so. But he did not! Taking the obedience out of faith leaves an empty shell, a body without a spirit, which is dead as James said. If you are upset that Paul never said "faith alone" take it up with Paul and the Holy Spirit. Emmaus |
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